The 2020 NBA Draft

[AtheJ415]

This is the big thing that should concern everyone. This is an article quoting the Zach Lowe pieces about James Jones from a year ago. We have seen 0 evidence, and in fact accumulated much more evidence, that what he has said is more true than ever. I have no idea why more simply are okay with the smartest and nicest NBA writer having to state, "But incentivizing another team to take him in part because you screwed up your cap sheet is a disaster. It borders on malpractice.”




https://arizonasports.com/story/2106625/lowe-suns-win-more-now-positioned-beyond-2019-20/?show=comments

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zach_Lowe

So this high school teacher-become web blogger with no NBA playing or front office management experience is the ultimate authority on how the Suns managed their assets. He's just another talking head and probably hasn't watched but a few Suns games the last few years. He's a Celtics homer with a nice personality kinda like Stephen A Smith is a Knicks homer with a **** personality.

If you think Zach Lowe isn't incredibly highly respected nationally and by front offices, then you're just beyond ignorant. He wins awards for the quality of his analytical coverage. He did not get where he is by being a shock jock personality in the way Stephen A is. This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read on realgm, and quite frankly it makes me fairly certain you've never read an article he's written.

[AtheJ415]

This is the big thing that should concern everyone. This is an article quoting the Zach Lowe pieces about James Jones from a year ago. We have seen 0 evidence, and in fact accumulated much more evidence, that what he has said is more true than ever. I have no idea why more simply are okay with the smartest and nicest NBA writer having to state, "But incentivizing another team to take him in part because you screwed up your cap sheet is a disaster. It borders on malpractice.”




https://arizonasports.com/story/2106625/lowe-suns-win-more-now-positioned-beyond-2019-20/?show=comments

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zach_Lowe

So this high school teacher-become web blogger with no NBA playing or front office management experience is the ultimate authority on how the Suns managed their assets. He's just another talking head and probably hasn't watched but a few Suns games the last few years. He's a Celtics homer with a nice personality kinda like Stephen A Smith is a Knicks homer with a **** personality.

"MS in Journalism from Columbia School of Journalism"

Yeah, total amateur.

Yup. He's a repeated honorary speaker at the MIT Sloan Sports Conference and has been referred to as the best writer in sports.

Also, I'm pretty certain he's confusing Zach Lowe with Bill Simmons as far as Celtics homerism.

[AtheJ415]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zach_Lowe

So this high school teacher-become web blogger with no NBA playing or front office management experience is the ultimate authority on how the Suns managed their assets. He's just another talking head and probably hasn't watched but a few Suns games the last few years. He's a Celtics homer with a nice personality kinda like Stephen A Smith is a Knicks homer with a **** personality.

"MS in Journalism from Columbia School of Journalism"

Yeah, total amateur.

He might be an outstanding "editorial/opinion" writer but does his Columbia degree make him an expert in NBA front office management, an area where his experience is limited? Tucker Carlson, Rachel Maddow, Zach Lowe ... experts at opining.

His job and critically acclaimed balanced coverage of NBA events for decades makes him an expert. I don't know why you've chosen this bridge to die on, but there isn't a more well respected writer in the country. Like not a 1. Comparing him to Stephen A Smith (who isn't really a writer and is a TV personality), or Tucker Carlson (a TV personality), shows that. Zach Lowe appearing on the Jump on occasion doesn't make him a TV personality shock jock. He's a writer with sources in every FO in the entire league. He covers the entire NBA and is one of the very few writers who even does that.

[AtheJ415]

You are exhausting.

It must be exhausting to confront the reality of the situation--there isn't an excuse for the asset management of this team for Jones's entire tenure. This is universally accepted everywhere outside of this board apparently. It shouldn't be enough that Smith ends up good. I do think he'll be good. I just don't see the point of excusing the rest of this draft, which we cannot participate in because our GM committed what the smartest NBA writer of our time termed malpractice.= for an entire offseason.

Well Jones has mismanaged his way to the best Suns team in over a decade, so give me some more of that mismanagement please.

There was no way that wouldn't happen under any new GM other than maybe Hinkie. Gutting McD's littany of not even NBA players for just regular NBA players was going to accomplish that. It's not some feat to be celebrated. Anybody on this board would have accomplished the same by signing vet min players to replace Chriss, Bender, Jackson, and Ulis. The best transaction I can say he had was lucking into Kelly Oubre due to a name mixup. He wanted Dillon, the insane chucker who nearly cost Memphis the playoffs. Frank was terrible. Trade for Jerome was terrible. Warren trade was terrible. Adding picks to dump Jackson because of salary cap mismanagement was terrible.

On the plus side, I'll give him Rubio & Cam, though Rubio was incredibly obvious. Cam pick was good but realistically is overrated here because in a redraft he'd go right where we picked him, so it's not as if he was an extreme value, and like many have said, we could've gotten more picks and still had him, but he did end up better than a number of guys taken ahead of him like RJ Barrett and others. Clarke was the obvious pick though and is clearly a level above Cam. Have to hope Smith doesn't suffer that same fate relative to Haliburton or Vassell.

I'm neutral on Paul trade overall. I don't think the 1st should've been thrown in. Very few teams could take on that salary to begin with. I'm fine trading Rubio and Oubre. Oubre is overrated and Jerome is flaming hot garbage. Kind of sad to lose Lecque because it's a super low risk high reward gamble, but we did also lose our cap space, so we effectively traded whoever we could've signed with that additional space.

His team construction isn't bad, but his means of getting there costs us too many unneeded dumpings of guys with value (like TJ Warren), who we compound the issue with by adding picks to. Picks we could use later to get a star, or to trade back into a draft, or for a key role player. That stuff matters.

[AtheJ415]

Memphis roster is crazy. They almost have too much young talent all across the board.

I think Memphis and Toronto in the past few years have run circles around the other teams in the draft.

[Revived]

Wow, the Locked On podcast guys were really really downcast with this pick. Some very valid points they made:

- Smith isn't great defending in space. Foot speed is average, and will struggle playing the 4.
- Best role for him is as a 3&D center, but there's not much value in drafting a backup center with the #10 when your starting center is Ayton
- He's too weak presently to effectively defend in the post. Better value in simply retaining Baynes if you simply wanted a 3 point shooting center.
- Ayton and Smith might be able to play together, but only for very limited durations. On defense, you've spent 2 years moulding Ayton into someone who can anchor the defense in the middle with 4 scrappy switchable defenders around him. Monty's entire premise on defense has been ball-pressure, switching and creating turnovers. Inserting Smith into that line-up as a second big just creates a whole new set of things for Ayton to learn and cover.
- On offense, Smith's main value is in the pick and pop situations. Shooting can and should translate, but he might be too weak at the moment (225 pounds and poor lower body strength) to really set picks effectively.
- Very limited ball-handler and averaged more turnovers than assists. Seems thus to be completely contrary to Jones' emphasis on adding playmaking .
- Dismissed the Cam Johnson comparison. While Cam was a reach, he at least fit what the Suns needed in a sharpshooting wing. Was easily the best shooter in the class.
- Smith doesn't feel a crying need on the roster. Backup center is the easiest position to fill in the NBA today with the likes of Noel and McGree reduced to playing for the vet minimum for a while. You could get a guy like Mike Muscala for the vet min and he'd add more value in 15 mins of playing time than a rookie big.

I’m not a James Jones fan in general (being slightly better than McD doesn’t make him good) because he gets destroyed in most of the trades he makes. But I originally didn’t mind the pick (as mentioned in this thread) even though there were other players I preferred instead. Now I admit it’s definitely a bit concerning that pretty much all basketball knowledgeable guys are all very disappointed with this pick.

This is gonna come down to whether or not he can play alongside Ayton successfully in the long run. Otherwise yeah this will look very bad years from now if he’s just a backup big. If Vessel, Bane, Haliburton etc are playing well while Smith is struggling to find mins due to fit then this will go down as another typical Suns blunder.

I’m hoping that won’t be the case and that Smith’s shot blocking ability and 3pt shooting ability will compliment Ayton well. Gotta hope for the best.

[AtheJ415]

I'm concerned about the long-term upside of this team. Plenty to look forward to this season, but CP3 is 35, and going to fall off soon. The league today means having a multitude of good wings and guards. Booker, Bridges and Cam are great, but we have nobody behind them. This draft gave us the opportunity to add Haliburton or Vassell (probably the best guard and wing prospects in the draft), and we passed on both. I really hope this doesn't come to bite us.

Smith is not going to bust, but man I'd have been feeling pretty good today if we'd landed Haliburton as our third guard behind CP3 and Booker.

Another thing to add about long term upside. It seems like it wasn't long ago people talked like we had this treasure chest of assets.

Tonight we didn't even have something we could trade for a 2nd rounder. Our backup guards are Payne and Carter.

We had that Bucks first from Bledsoe, but we traded it for Ty Jerome. It was used on Desmond Bane tonight...we could have used that.

And we don't have any seconds going forward.

If Chris Paul goes down, or any of our wings (including Booker as a wing)..we are in big trouble.

Yep, the only way to add long-term talent to this roster is now our 2021 pick, which will probably be in the teens or early 20s if we make the playoffs.

The thing Denver does really well for instance in the draft is continuously add high-ceiling talent while operating at a very high floor. Apart from Jokic and Murray, they have MPJ and RJ Hampton.

Dallas has gone the same route this year, by adding Josh Green and Tyrell Terry. Richardson via trade is also a really good get.

The Pels and Thunder are well off at the moment, but they have a treasure chest of assets and some very intriguing talents. Wolves have talent too, and Rubio will be good for them. Oh, and I'm forgetting Memphis.

Ultimately, these are the teams we'll end up competing with in the West over the next 5 years. I found it worrying that James Jones referenced the Lakers and their size as justification for drafting Smith. We're not in a position to compete with the Lakers or the Clippers for the title unless CP3 has an MVP type season. Our window of contention will open up only post 2022 once Booker, Ayton, Bridges are battle-hardened and have developed further. But we absolutely NEED to keep surrounding them with high-ceiling talent.

Role players are always easy to add in free agency. The draft is not for adding role players.

This. Also, the Lakers size is really about AD and Lebron, and Lebron is going to slow in the next few years with age because it's life and he won't be an all-star nearing 40. I get they have Javale and other bigs, but those guys aren't winning titles if Lebron falls off. Why are we drafting now to compete with a team with a 2-3 year window when the rest of our real competition going forward is going to be teeming with wings and shooters (Dallas, LAC, Denver)?

[AtheJ415]

90% of people on here are the same as the ridiculous media, criticising draft picks and saying teams had great drafts based on prospects who have never played a minute in the league.

Just relax and see how it plays out.

I get the asset management argument most years, and I think that is important, but Jalen Smith was not really a reach when (as BW's post said) he was projected only a few picks after us in plenty of mocks.

PS. Imagine if we drafted Desmond Bane (who plenty wanted), even though we could've traded back to 29 and got him. Hindsight makes this so easy.

Most I've seen here who wanted Bane wanted to trade down to take Bane. It's not really hindsight. It's very obvious that Jones has different opinions of guys than consensus. Given that, he should lean into it and get more from the draft via extra picks or players like he did last year to get Saric. Problem is that's the only time he's done it despite 2 obvious times he could have.

[AtheJ415]

Wow, the Locked On podcast guys were really really downcast with this pick. Some very valid points they made:

- Smith isn't great defending in space. Foot speed is average, and will struggle playing the 4.
- Best role for him is as a 3&D center, but there's not much value in drafting a backup center with the #10 when your starting center is Ayton
- He's too weak presently to effectively defend in the post. Better value in simply retaining Baynes if you simply wanted a 3 point shooting center.
- Ayton and Smith might be able to play together, but only for very limited durations. On defense, you've spent 2 years moulding Ayton into someone who can anchor the defense in the middle with 4 scrappy switchable defenders around him. Monty's entire premise on defense has been ball-pressure, switching and creating turnovers. Inserting Smith into that line-up as a second big just creates a whole new set of things for Ayton to learn and cover.
- On offense, Smith's main value is in the pick and pop situations. Shooting can and should translate, but he might be too weak at the moment (225 pounds and poor lower body strength) to really set picks effectively.
- Very limited ball-handler and averaged more turnovers than assists. Seems thus to be completely contrary to Jones' emphasis on adding playmaking .
- Dismissed the Cam Johnson comparison. While Cam was a reach, he at least fit what the Suns needed in a sharpshooting wing. Was easily the best shooter in the class.
- Smith doesn't feel a crying need on the roster. Backup center is the easiest position to fill in the NBA today with the likes of Noel and McGree reduced to playing for the vet minimum for a while. You could get a guy like Mike Muscala for the vet min and he'd add more value in 15 mins of playing time than a rookie big.

I’m not a James Jones fan in general (being slightly better than McD doesn’t make him good) because he gets destroyed in most of the trades he makes. But I originally didn’t mind the pick (as mentioned in this thread) even though there were other players I preferred instead. Now I admit it’s definitely a bit concerning that pretty much all basketball knowledgeable guys are all very disappointed with this pick.

This is gonna come down to whether or not he can play alongside Ayton successfully in the long run. Otherwise yeah this will look very bad years from now if he’s just a backup big. If Vessel, Bane, Haliburton etc are playing well while Smith is struggling to find mins due to fit then this will go down as another typical Suns blunder.

I’m hoping that won’t be the case and that Smith’s shot blocking ability and 3pt shooting ability will compliment Ayton well. Gotta hope for the best.

Yup. They have to KNOW he can defend 4s. Not some 4s. Not occasionally. He needs to be capable of being a starting PF to justify a top 10 selection. Centers just aren't valuable, and we already have the best backup C in basketball in Baynes who we are about to let walk because he just doesn't have much value to us because we have Ayton already. Outside of Booker's backup, backup 5 is the least valuable position on the team. They must envision that he can play with Ayton or the FO is hopeless. And it is a certainty that a guy like Muscala will be better year 1. Whatever those quickness exercises are, they need to be confident they will work and that he will improve immensely on that end.

Offensively, he's fine at the 4. He can stand at the 3 point corner and space for others, or pick and pop. But if he can't defend well enough next to Ayton this is a disaster.

[Blonde]

Even if Smith plays great he'll be a weird fit with our roster and won't ever have much trade value around the league. I hope he can provide us a ton of value one day but I'd be surprised if he lasts until his second contract with us.

[TheLogician]

Gambo said the Suns fielded trade calls. He didn't say which teams inquired but I believe that happened because it took Woj/Shams/Gambo until the last second to report the pick. I would have been fine trading down for Smith, or better yet Achiuwa. We could have then added someone like Bane to help with our depth. We could definitely regret passing on Vassell and Haliburton, too. I just hope Smith is as versatile as Jones seems to believe. A backup 3&D center is really not that valuable. We are probably letting the best one we had go in Baynes.

[Bogyo]

Well, I just think that I could do JJ's work as good as he does, maybe even better in some *coughdraftcough* situations. This goes for the most of you as well. I would have taken Haliburton or Vassel, and picked up a vet min 4/5. Or work my ass off on the phone and trade back a couple spots, and take him or Precious/ Reed if he is gone by 14-18 (or wherever we could have traded back). Ever since his first moves I just don't think JJ works his azz off for the team. He just takes the simplest ways, picks the high floor players - good strategy to keep your job on the long run, not so good for hitting home runs... this is also why he gets fleeced in trades usually.

As for the pick itself: I liked him in the late teens as a backup 5. In todays game he is a bit of a stiff to play the 4. Comp: a less agile, bit more agressive Brook Lopez. Maaayyybeee spot PF minutes, in certain situations, especially if he is a sub with Saric on the court, then they are our 2 bigs, whoever plays whatever of 4 or 5 each posession. I think it's really 50/50 how he'll turn out - and that is not the best thing to say about a top 10 pick.

I'll root for him, seems like a good kid and he is a Sun now.


One question for Gok: who is a late second rounder next year that we'll pick in the low 20s next year?

[Mr Puddles]

The success of this pick will depend on if Smith can play the 4 spot. I have no doubt he'll be a solid back-up 5, but that by itself is not enough with a #10 pick IMO, especially since I see guys like Vassell and Haliburton being solid rotation pieces for the Spurs and Kings.

Basically, I'd see our depth chart like this。

PG CP3 / Payne
SG Booker / Carter
SF Bridges / Johnson / Nader
PF Johnson / Saric / Smith
C. Ayton / Smith / Saric

We'll probably play a three guard line-up at times as well with CP3/Carter (or Payne when he's on fire)/ Booker/

This pick shows that our front office has a lot of faith in Payne and Carter building on their strong bubble performance. There's definitely something to be said for rewarding strong performances. I think Carter will be great as a backup SG (he's looked much better there than as a PG), but I'm a bit concerned about having only Payne on the roster if CP misses time. Of course we could still address this in free agency.

Overall, I hope this pick works out and I think we'll really like Smith as a back-up center. But I see both Vassell and Haliburton outproducing him.

[NTB]

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=NBAonESPN

[suns12345]

Gambo said the Suns fielded trade calls. He didn't say which teams inquired but I believe that happened because it took Woj/Shams/Gambo until the last second to report the pick. I would have been fine trading down for Smith, or better yet Achiuwa. We could have then added someone like Bane to help with our depth. We could definitely regret passing on Vassell and Haliburton, too. I just hope Smith is as versatile as Jones seems to believe. A backup 3&D center is really not that valuable. We are probably letting the best one we had go in Baynes.

"could definitely" pretty much sums up everyones hot takes on here.

Smith also "could definitely" be the best player in this draft.

And sorry, dont mean to pick on you Logician, just wish some of the people on here applied for the GM job instead of JJ since they can predict the future...

[suns12345]

90% of people on here are the same as the ridiculous media, criticising draft picks and saying teams had great drafts based on prospects who have never played a minute in the league.

Just relax and see how it plays out.

I get the asset management argument most years, and I think that is important, but Jalen Smith was not really a reach when (as BW's post said) he was projected only a few picks after us in plenty of mocks.

PS. Imagine if we drafted Desmond Bane (who plenty wanted), even though we could've traded back to 29 and got him. Hindsight makes this so easy.

Most I've seen here who wanted Bane wanted to trade down to take Bane. It's not really hindsight. It's very obvious that Jones has different opinions of guys than consensus. Given that, he should lean into it and get more from the draft via extra picks or players like he did last year to get Saric. Problem is that's the only time he's done it despite 2 obvious times he could have.

Wanted to trade down to 15, not 30...

its pretty obvious every GM has different views to the consensus based on today.

What are the 2 obvious times he could have got extra picks and players? are you aware of offers he had on the table for past assets?

[RedIndian]

Well, I just think that I could do JJ's work as good as he does, maybe even better in some *coughdraftcough* situations. This goes for the most of you as well. I would have taken Haliburton or Vassel, and picked up a vet min 4/5. Or work my ass off on the phone and trade back a couple spots, and take him or Precious/ Reed if he is gone by 14-18 (or wherever we could have traded back). Ever since his first moves I just don't think JJ works his azz off for the team. He just takes the simplest ways, picks the high floor players - good strategy to keep your job on the long run, not so good for hitting home runs... this is also why he gets fleeced in trades usually.

As for the pick itself: I liked him in the late teens as a backup 5. In todays game he is a bit of a stiff to play the 4. Comp: a less agile, bit more agressive Brook Lopez. Maaayyybeee spot PF minutes, in certain situations, especially if he is a sub with Saric on the court, then they are our 2 bigs, whoever plays whatever of 4 or 5 each posession. I think it's really 50/50 how he'll turn out - and that is not the best thing to say about a top 10 pick.

I'll root for him, seems like a good kid and he is a Sun now.


One question for Gok: who is a late second rounder next year that we'll pick in the low 20s next year?

Yeah, more and more I am concerned about James Jones and the FO. I mean McD was so bad that we're just relieved that we're at least getting some decent basketball players on the floor, but that can't be the standard to judge him by.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but I'm kinda feeling dismal now after the initial euphoria of the CP3 trade. It seems that we're betting hugely on CP3's health to make the playoffs this year. Well, it's worth remembering that one of the reasons CP3 played so well in OKC is that they surprisingly put a very interesting line-up around him, with 2 excellent guards in Shai and Schroder to share the load with him.

With the present moves, we have 2 effective on-ball guards on the roster. Carter is strictly a 15 min hustle guy. Payne is a 3rd stringer. Pertinently, none of our wings are particularly good ball handlers or playmakers at the moment.

The draft gave us the opportunity to pick the most well-rounded guard (Haliburton) or the most well-rounded wing (Vassell), and we passed on both? To pick a player in the most redundant position in the NBA?

I mean at this point, you just have to question the long-term vision of this FO. I mean even in the short-term, you're REALLY betting heavily on CP3 being healthy for this team to make the playoffs.

I'm wondering if we had this roster:

Ayton / Baynes
Oubre / Saric
Bridges / Cam
Booker / Carter
Rubio / Haliburton

Is that not deeper and better than this?

Ayton / Smith
Cam / Saric
Bridges / Nader
Booker / Carter
Paul / Payne

Big pressure to add something really good in FA.

[suns12345]

Well, I just think that I could do JJ's work as good as he does, maybe even better in some *coughdraftcough* situations. This goes for the most of you as well. I would have taken Haliburton or Vassel, and picked up a vet min 4/5. Or work my ass off on the phone and trade back a couple spots, and take him or Precious/ Reed if he is gone by 14-18 (or wherever we could have traded back). Ever since his first moves I just don't think JJ works his azz off for the team. He just takes the simplest ways, picks the high floor players - good strategy to keep your job on the long run, not so good for hitting home runs... this is also why he gets fleeced in trades usually.

As for the pick itself: I liked him in the late teens as a backup 5. In todays game he is a bit of a stiff to play the 4. Comp: a less agile, bit more agressive Brook Lopez. Maaayyybeee spot PF minutes, in certain situations, especially if he is a sub with Saric on the court, then they are our 2 bigs, whoever plays whatever of 4 or 5 each posession. I think it's really 50/50 how he'll turn out - and that is not the best thing to say about a top 10 pick.

I'll root for him, seems like a good kid and he is a Sun now.


One question for Gok: who is a late second rounder next year that we'll pick in the low 20s next year?

Yeah, more and more I am concerned about James Jones and the FO. I mean McD was so bad that we're just relieved that we're at least getting some decent basketball players on the floor, but that can't be the standard to judge him by.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but I'm kinda feeling dismal now after the initial euphoria of the CP3 trade. It seems that we're betting hugely on CP3's health to make the playoffs this year. Well, it's worth remembering that one of the reasons CP3 played so well in OKC is that they surprisingly put a very interesting line-up around him, with 2 excellent guards in Shai and Schroder to share the load with him.

With the present moves, we have 2 effective on-ball guards on the roster. Carter is strictly a 15 min hustle guy. Payne is a 3rd stringer. Pertinently, none of our wings are particularly good ball handlers or playmakers at the moment.

The draft gave us the opportunity to pick the most well-rounded guard (Haliburton) or the most well-rounded wing (Vassell), and we passed on both? To pick a player in the most redundant position in the NBA?

I mean at this point, you just have to question the long-term vision of this FO. I mean even in the short-term, you're REALLY betting heavily on CP3 being healthy for this team to make the playoffs.

I'm wondering if we had this roster:

Ayton / Baynes
Oubre / Saric
Bridges / Cam
Booker / Carter
Rubio / Haliburton

Is that not deeper and better than this?

Ayton / Smith
Cam / Saric
Bridges / Nader
Booker / Carter
Paul / Payne

Big pressure to add something really good in FA.

That is an interesting comparison. And I think you're right, the first team is at least in the same conversation depth/talent wise.

A few things to note though, Baynes probably isn't staying CP3 trade or not, Oubre is gone at the end of the year either way so the ceiling of the team is not impacted really (or signed to a deal that is too high and hampers our future anyway), and Haliburton - well, if he's better than Smith we made a bad pick and if he's worse we made a good pick - but its hard to factor that in for now...

[jsierra1985]

LOL...

its okay to judge a draft pick...whether its the first pick in the draft to the last pick in the draft...

what is not okay is everyone thinking they are GM's and calling these guys busts or bad picks when they havent stepped on the court yet....

[sunsbg]

This was supposed to be a draft with many trades and pick swaps, but appears it ended as one of the most boring drafts.

Jalen will be solid player probably, but would have been more excited with someone like Hayes.