When is Isaac Returning? Ruled out for the entire 2021-2022 season

[Xatticus]

They said before that interview there were no setbacks.

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Ok, who is "they"? And if it was "before that interview", I'm assuming Weltman himself did not say it? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm genuinely curious whether that statement has ever come out of the mouth of Weltman, and if so when?

Also, "setback" is a broad term. It doesn't necessarily mean he re-injured the knee. It could mean he experienced swelling when they tried to ramp up his work. Or he feels a clicking in the knee. Or he experienced pain after months of being pain-free.

Haven't heard any swelling or anything like that, do you have a link? All we know is they're taking their time because they can.

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You don't need a link. Something has gone wrong. It can't be construed as anything but negative that he has been out for 18 months and counting. That's not anything resembling normal. I have no idea why you are pushing back on this. Isaac clearly isn't ready after 18 months. That's concerning.

[basketballRob]

Ok, who is "they"? And if it was "before that interview", I'm assuming Weltman himself did not say it? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm genuinely curious whether that statement has ever come out of the mouth of Weltman, and if so when?

Also, "setback" is a broad term. It doesn't necessarily mean he re-injured the knee. It could mean he experienced swelling when they tried to ramp up his work. Or he feels a clicking in the knee. Or he experienced pain after months of being pain-free.

Haven't heard any swelling or anything like that, do you have a link? All we know is they're taking their time because they can.

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You don't need a link. Something has gone wrong. It can't be construed as anything but negative that he has been out for 18 months and counting. That's not anything resembling normal. I have no idea why you are pushing back on this. Isaac clearly isn't ready after 18 months. That's concerning.

Maybe they're being overly cautious with him because of the type of injury he had.

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[Xatticus]

So Weltman is a liar.

Sure. The NBA is a business at the end of the day, don’t forget that.

Go watch some Steve Nash/Sean Marks interviews over the last couple months for evidence of that. Whether it’s them continually covering up for Joe Harris’s injury and then having to finally come out and say once he was weeks past the expected return date they’d given him that he suffered a setback or whether it’s both of them saying in interviews they weren’t discussing James harden trades and had zero intentions of trading him before trading him 24 hours later, this stuff is all fairly common.

Teams have their various motives for playing these PR games/chess matches. In bigger markets with constant media pressure and attention it’s just harder to get away with it. Here, there is absolutely zero pressure on Weltman to say anything. We’re one of the smallest markets and he will never get anything outside of the softest of softball questions from what few media members we even have covering the team.

Weltman is a liar because he can be. What repercussions in this market has he ever faced, and why would that change now?

He’s made it a priority starting with the Fultz injury to keep everything surrounding serious injuries of this nature in house. I think in many ways, he’s also trying to save face as well. Signing an injury prone player who has only had one healthy season in 5 years to this contract has a real shot at becoming another stain on his record.

It's funny because we just had a discussion about the fan base in Orlando. This organization is so insular. There was a time when there was some real reporting surrounding the franchise. It has been completely killed off. Everything has been coopted by the organization. Reporters become mouth pieces. You can be respectful while actually asking real questions. Every fan wants the answers to what is going on, but nobody with a mic is asking the obvious questions. People actually tune in to listen to the crap the organization puts out. And people wonder why this fan base doesn't care? It's a functioning autocracy. If someone put out Magic content where they didn't constantly kiss the asses of everyone involved with the organization, I would listen.

[swarlesbarkley]

So Weltman is a liar.

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Is there an interview you can point us to where Weltman explicitly said there was no setback? In the one extended interview he did on Isaac in November I don’t recall him saying that. He dropped a lot of buzzwords, said Isaac was working on balance and strength, said JI was progressing, etc. But did he actually say there was no setback?

They said before that interview there were no setbacks.

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It's been almost 4 months since the Weltman interview - isn't there a possibility that a setback has occurred between that interview and now?

[swarlesbarkley]

totally didn't derail Embiid's career. lol

buuuuuut.... it all depends on what is being done during the time. I'm sure he's not just sitting on the couch eating twinkies... like some other players. He might come back with a new lease on life, more developed skills, developed jumper, ... and set of strong ass knees. If that's the case.... it was worth it. lol

But we will see where this all goes! Would have personally loved to see him on the court... but if that's not the case... I pray it was all worth it and we'll see when he finally hit the court.

everything is all suspicion until it becomes reality.

Embiid sat out his first two years in the league, not half of his 1st and 3rd and basically all of his 4th and 5th like Isaac.

IMO it's way more likely that Isaac's ceiling has dropped significantly with this prolonged injury rather than risen. He's most likely trying to get back to where he was pre-injury rather than expanding his game.

Ceiling? You mean potential? Maybe, but not significantly.

His trade value might have dropped significantly though.

But potential-wise, I doubt. In fact, I think the higher chance of him reaching closer to it after a prolong rest.

Again, there really is no rush to have him back on the court. And when healthy, we all know he is a big plus on the team.

Making sure he is REALLY healthy and ready to go shouldn’t really matter now. Again, we are not even trying to win. And he will only eat up Bamba’s minutes, tbh. So there really is no point as of now.

There's no chance that JI has the same "potential" after all this injury and and prolonged rehab as he did prior to the injury. It just doesn't work like that. Players don't get better by doing non-contact drills, watching film, and cheering on teammates from the sidelines. I'd say this is especially true for a player like JI whose elite skill relied on his athletic ability on the defensive side - his injury may have already prevented him from returning to that form - but also the skills he needs to work on to complete his game require him to react to defenders and expand his offensive game - that's not happening during rehab.

The only way JI comes back with similar potential is if they are using this bonus rehab time to completely revamp his body into a 5.

[basketballRob]

Is there an interview you can point us to where Weltman explicitly said there was no setback? In the one extended interview he did on Isaac in November I don’t recall him saying that. He dropped a lot of buzzwords, said Isaac was working on balance and strength, said JI was progressing, etc. But did he actually say there was no setback?

They said before that interview there were no setbacks.

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It's been almost 4 months since the Weltman interview - isn't there a possibility that a setback has occurred between that interview and now?

Possibly or they're being overly cautious.

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[basketballRob]

So Isaac had a setback which the Magic have said he hasn't. The Magic have said they're being overly cautious but they are lying. Just trying to follow along with what people are posting here.

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[MartinsIzAfraud]

So Isaac had a setback which the Magic have said he hasn't. The Magic have said they're being overly cautious but they are lying. Just trying to follow along with what people are posting here.

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18 months and he's just starting non contact court work doesn't add up even if they were being overly cautious.

“We’ll see,” Isaac said about being ready for the season opener, which is 45 days away. “I’m on the court. I’m weaning out of the brace. I’m jumping. I’m finishing around the basket and such. I’m easing my way. I’m getting there.”

That was said September 6th 2021, and now he's still doing non contact work? Between September 6th of 21 and February 25th of 22 he's clearly had a setback.

[swarlesbarkley]

So Isaac had a setback which the Magic have said he hasn't. The Magic have said they're being overly cautious but they are lying. Just trying to follow along with what people are posting here.

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18 months and he's just starting non contact court work doesn't add up even if they were being overly cautious.

“We’ll see,” Isaac said about being ready for the season opener, which is 45 days away. “I’m on the court. I’m weaning out of the brace. I’m jumping. I’m finishing around the basket and such. I’m easing my way. I’m getting there.”

That was said September 6th 2021, and now he's still doing non contact work? Between September 6th of 21 and February 25th of 22 he's clearly had a setback.

Nah, he just heals slower than every athlete before him.

Also - isn't healing slower just as concerning as a setback? Normal injuries take x amount of time but for JI it's 2x+.

[basketballRob]

So Isaac had a setback which the Magic have said he hasn't. The Magic have said they're being overly cautious but they are lying. Just trying to follow along with what people are posting here.

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18 months and he's just starting non contact court work doesn't add up even if they were being overly cautious.

“We’ll see,” Isaac said about being ready for the season opener, which is 45 days away. “I’m on the court. I’m weaning out of the brace. I’m jumping. I’m finishing around the basket and such. I’m easing my way. I’m getting there.”

That was said September 6th 2021, and now he's still doing non contact work? Between September 6th of 21 and February 25th of 22 he's clearly had a setback.

Nah, he just heals slower than every athlete before him.

Also - isn't healing slower just as concerning as a setback? Normal injuries take x amount of time but for JI it's 2x+.

Unless he is healed but they just want to work on strengthening it more before they allow him to do contact drills.

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[axl_c_cool]

They have written the season off and keeping him.out. No doubt he could have returned in Jan with Fultz if we were competing. He'll be in the gym and training

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[TheChaser]

I could add this “input” in multiple threads, but damn this is a very polarized and negative board in a lot of ways. I’m not attacking and I think you all have great ideas at times and love reading what you have to say; but now more than ever (as far as post Dwight) we have more reason for optimism in just about every area of the franchise.

I feel you, but when the team finished 21-51 last season, is 13-47 this season, and has a .363 winning percentage in the last 5 years since Weltman and Hammond took over, I'm not sure how much positivity you can expect! (Also, the two highest-paid players have been in street clothes for the past two seasons and are mostly visible in grainy 5-second shootaround videos).

All valid points…I suppose I can put on rose colored glasses at times, I just think that we finally have somewhat of a direction now; which we have had absolutely no direction in recent years. But you are right as far as the injury management and there are many things that could be improved upon. I just meant that it’s at least a fraction better than it has been, haha.

[Magic_Kingdom]

So Weltman is a liar.

Sure. The NBA is a business at the end of the day, don’t forget that.

Go watch some Steve Nash/Sean Marks interviews over the last couple months for evidence of that. Whether it’s them continually covering up for Joe Harris’s injury and then having to finally come out and say once he was weeks past the expected return date they’d given him that he suffered a setback or whether it’s both of them saying in interviews they weren’t discussing James harden trades and had zero intentions of trading him before trading him 24 hours later, this stuff is all fairly common.

Teams have their various motives for playing these PR games/chess matches. In bigger markets with constant media pressure and attention it’s just harder to get away with it. Here, there is absolutely zero pressure on Weltman to say anything. We’re one of the smallest markets and he will never get anything outside of the softest of softball questions from what few media members we even have covering the team.

Weltman is a liar because he can be. What repercussions in this market has he ever faced, and why would that change now?

He’s made it a priority starting with the Fultz injury to keep everything surrounding serious injuries of this nature in house. I think in many ways, he’s also trying to save face as well. Signing an injury prone player who has only had one healthy season in 5 years to this contract has a real shot at becoming another stain on his record.

It's funny because we just had a discussion about the fan base in Orlando. This organization is so insular. There was a time when there was some real reporting surrounding the franchise. It has been completely killed off. Everything has been coopted by the organization. Reporters become mouth pieces. You can be respectful while actually asking real questions. Every fan wants the answers to what is going on, but nobody with a mic is asking the obvious questions. People actually tune in to listen to the crap the organization puts out. And people wonder why this fan base doesn't care? It's a functioning autocracy. If someone put out Magic content where they didn't constantly kiss the asses of everyone involved with the organization, I would listen.

Man, so true. We lost Josh Robbins and I don't think the Athletic has replaced him. He was the last actual journalist we had. The bloggers don't dare press management because they just want access, they don't care about digging for the truth. The Weltman "interview" about Isaac in November was a joke. Welt just delivered a bunch of talking points and didn't say a single thing of substance.

Like PrimeThyme said, Welt is not going to volunteer info about an Isaac setback because if there has been one, he looks really, really bad. He signed an injury-prone player to a $70 million extension while he was rehabbing his second major knee injury of the year. Even putting the most positive spin possible on it, JI will spend at least the first 25% of the contract term in street clothes. If it's because of a setback or the knee is just not ready to go full-speed 19 months post-injury then Weltman looks like an idiot.

[MasterGMer]

It looks more and more true that JI will not return this season.

That is not what I hoped. But it is going to be this way. Sigh...

[nicnac215]

It looks more and more true that JI will not return this season.

That is not what I hoped. But it is going to be this way. Sigh...

At least Isaac he is apart of the team. He cheers on the bench and is traveling with the team. He wants to be there. If he was absent like Zion I would be really concerned.

[KillMonger]

It looks more and more true that JI will not return this season.

That is not what I hoped. But it is going to be this way. Sigh...

yep, that's what i'm thinking....fultz had to go through a 1 month "ramp up" with practices with lakeland and stuff like that....JI isn't even at that point yet.....yeah might as well announce he won't be playing this season

[PrimeThyme]

I just stopped figuring Isaac into the future of the Magic. Whatever is going on with him makes no sense to me and I don't know what to make of it.

I wanted to move this into the Isaac thread because I've been wondering this too. Obviously, I am no knee specialist, but I've been doing some research into what an ACL setback would look like and have found some pretty useful information regarding ACL revision surgeries.

https://drrobertlaprademd.com/revision-acl-reconstruction-acl-graft-failure-acl-knee-surgery-twin-cities-minnesota/

The second most common cause of ACL reconstruction failure is due to untreated secondary instabilities. This could include a posterolateral corner injury, a meniscal root detachment, or a lack of the posterior horn of the medial meniscus. It is well recognized that a deficiency of these areas, and other areas to include an unrecognized PCL injury, medial knee injury, alignment issues in patients who have arthritis and other issues, are also common causes of ACL reconstruction failures. For this reason, the work-up for an ACL revision surgery must include evaluation of the secondary restraints of the knee and the integrity of the posterior horn of the medial meniscus.

From what I've been able to garner, it doesn't seem out of the question that this is what Isaac suffered at some point in his recovery. Isaac suffered a torn meniscus alongside the ACL and according to what I've read it seems that certain deficiencies alongside the ACL (such as the meniscus) could result in an ACL reconstruction failure.

The difficulty is I just can't find any precedence for such complications among athletes in the last 5-10 years. With the advancement we've seen in ACL surgeries these days it doesn't seem like an issue most players are running into.

However, from a recovery time standpoint, it makes sense. The recovery time of ACL revision surgeries takes 25-30% longer than the initial surgery. Considering Isaac is looking at potentially 2 plus years before he is ramping up to full play again (training camp 2022), I think it's a plausible explanation for why we haven't seen him.

The worst-case scenario though is that the surgery hasn't happened yet because if he's still experiencing complications and needs the revision surgery now, he may never play a minute under this new extension we gave him.

[Knightro]

Read on Twitter

I feel like he could play today if the organization really wanted him to.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

I just stopped figuring Isaac into the future of the Magic. Whatever is going on with him makes no sense to me and I don't know what to make of it.

I wanted to move this into the Isaac thread because I've been wondering this too. Obviously, I am no knee specialist, but I've been doing some research into what an ACL setback would look like and have found some pretty useful information regarding ACL revision surgeries.

https://drrobertlaprademd.com/revision-acl-reconstruction-acl-graft-failure-acl-knee-surgery-twin-cities-minnesota/

The second most common cause of ACL reconstruction failure is due to untreated secondary instabilities. This could include a posterolateral corner injury, a meniscal root detachment, or a lack of the posterior horn of the medial meniscus. It is well recognized that a deficiency of these areas, and other areas to include an unrecognized PCL injury, medial knee injury, alignment issues in patients who have arthritis and other issues, are also common causes of ACL reconstruction failures. For this reason, the work-up for an ACL revision surgery must include evaluation of the secondary restraints of the knee and the integrity of the posterior horn of the medial meniscus.

From what I've been able to garner, it doesn't seem out of the question that this is what Isaac suffered at some point in his recovery. Isaac suffered a torn meniscus alongside the ACL and according to what I've read it seems that certain deficiencies alongside the ACL (such as the meniscus) could result in an ACL reconstruction failure.

The difficulty is I just can't find any precedence for such complications among athletes in the last 5-10 years. With the advancement we've seen in ACL surgeries these days it doesn't seem like an issue most players are running into.

However, from a recovery time standpoint, it makes sense. The recovery time of ACL revision surgeries takes 25-30% longer than the initial surgery. Considering Isaac is looking at potentially 2 plus years before he is ramping up to full play again (training camp 2022), I think it's a plausible explanation for why we haven't seen him.

The worst-case scenario though is that the surgery hasn't happened yet because if he's still experiencing complications and needs the revision surgery now, he may never play a minute under this new extension we gave him.

If I'm the FO and he's not healthy come opening night I'm taking the next steps for that Exhibit 3 clause, at that point he's a wasted player and might as well cut the dead weight.

[PrimeThyme]

I just don’t see how a guy who still hasn’t progressed to contact work 18 months post surgery could “play if we needed him to”.

We’ve learned by now that no matter how hard Weltman tries to make us think he is, he’s not playing 8D chess in some grand tank move.

Something has gone wrong.