RealGM Top 100 List #21

[ronnymac2]

I also believe Frazier should have been Finals MVP, but just for the sake of accuracy...

Reed did have impact in that game 7. After he hit the two jumpers, he was able to pull Wilt out of the lane for the limited minutes he was able to play. As a result, Wilt only blocked one shot in the game and had little impact defensively. The Knicks WERE hot all game, so maybe it wouldn't have mattered, but it might have helped.

Reed also shoved Wilt out of his comfort zone and boxed him out on the defensive glass. This was integral because the Lakers stupidly thought Wilt could take advantage of an injured Reed. As long as Reed used his strength to deny Wilt optimum position, Wilt's post game would be pretty useless, and L.A.'s offense would be limited.

People talk about the courage Reed gave is teammates by coming out and ignore the on-court impact he had in that game.

Again, Clyde was superior in that game and should have been Finals MVP for his play superior play throughout the series. Reed did have on-court impact in game seven though.

[Doctor MJ]

I also believe Frazier should have been Finals MVP, but just for the sake of accuracy...

Reed did have impact in that game 7. After he hit the two jumpers, he was able to pull Wilt out of the lane for the limited minutes he was able to play. As a result, Wilt only blocked one shot in the game and had little impact defensively. The Knicks WERE hot all game, so maybe it wouldn't have mattered, but it might have helped.

Reed also shoved Wilt out of his comfort zone and boxed him out on the defensive glass. This was integral because the Lakers stupidly thought Wilt could take advantage of an injured Reed. As long as Reed used his strength to deny Wilt optimum position, Wilt's post game would be pretty useless, and L.A.'s offense would be limited.

People talk about the courage Reed gave is teammates by coming out and ignore the on-court impact he had in that game.

Again, Clyde was superior in that game and should have been Finals MVP for his play superior play throughout the series. Reed did have on-court impact in game seven though.

Truly from a Wilt/Reed perspective it's unfortunate the Knicks were so hot to make it all moot. Literally they were just hitting jumper after jumper. Absolutely not something they could do on a regular basis.

Reed on defense was valuable, and he definitely does deserve credit.

[ElGee]

But there's a lot of Moses Maloneness to that WS list. As in, his ABA seasons are inflated because of (a) split leagues, (b) smaller league (height) and (c) pace. I don't think he was as good as his box suggests anyway.

Then he has a bunch of years on the back end which slowly accumulate more WS's, but the individual seasons for much of the 80s don't really do much to help a basketball team. I'd rather have a 14 WS season in a vacuum than 7 4 WS seasons.

And since no one seems to have done it, I ran the numbers for the 33 games Artis missed with the knee in 1980 (1 remaining from the year unaccounted for).

With: 108.8 ppg 110.6 opp
W/Out: 105.6 ppg 109.6 opp

For a total impact of +2.3, from a -4.1 MOV to -1.8, with less than a ppg difference on defense in points allowed. He was 30 at the time of the injury, coming off back-to-back AS appearances and a season of 21-12-3 62% TS and averaged 18-9-3 on 64% TS after the injury (roughly).

I'm not a big "career total" guy so I'm definitely there with you for some of that, but I posted it to show the serious scale difference. Picking a Ewing or Robinson over Gilmore is one thing, but the next set of bigs down had extremely fractured careers.

Re: Inflated ABA. Literally if you completely ignore his time in the ABA, he still kills most of these guys on the NBA list. Not saying he'd be my next big without the ABA play, just again trying hammer in the scale of things.

Re: In/Out. Cool to see, but it's not enough to really sway me.

Well, I agree he's in the next set of guys. But didn't we just nominate Patrick Ewing? I see a much larger gap...

I'm also not sure what you mean that if we ignore ABA he "kills most of these guys." Really? Does he kill Robert Parish if we ignore ABA?

The In/Out is only for one year, so it's not designed to sway. It's just *another* piece of evidence suggesting Artis wasn't really that special. I'm re-evaluating his 80s seasons and I think that will end up getting him closer to 40 than 50 on my list..so this is a guy I value higher than Marques Johnson, who I will argue my brains out for in this project. I guess I just don't get the evidence for holding Artis in such a high light, and specifically his peak (and getting him so close to the Ewing/Robinson group of bigs)...

Haven't really thought about it that much, but yes, my gut would be to take Artis. Bigger shotblocker, more rebounding despite being on a better rebounding team, near the same volume with far greater efficiency despite not getting to play next to Bird.

I will say though the fact that the Spurs defense didn't show any major improvement with Gilmore is a concern. Boston's clearly the better defensive team, and Parish is part of that.

Your thoughts?

As I just said, I'm trying to analyze these seasons deeper. First glance, I know Parish was coming off an 82 season in which he was really good defensively and played a large enough role on the team that he had incredible MVP support. HIs defense is good, but not great, and I think in many ways he can create his offense better than Gilmore.

Artis, OTOH, was probably slightly better on defense. And overall they probably weren't too far apart on offense. Honestly, if I'm slightly fuzzy on putting together the pieces of 1970s Gilmore, a year like 83 is even harder. I could see going either way.

[Doctor MJ]

Well, I agree he's in the next set of guys. But didn't we just nominate Patrick Ewing? I see a much larger gap...

I'm also not sure what you mean that if we ignore ABA he "kills most of these guys." Really? Does he kill Robert Parish if we ignore ABA?

The In/Out is only for one year, so it's not designed to sway. It's just *another* piece of evidence suggesting Artis wasn't really that special. I'm re-evaluating his 80s seasons and I think that will end up getting him closer to 40 than 50 on my list..so this is a guy I value higher than Marques Johnson, who I will argue my brains out for in this project. I guess I just don't get the evidence for holding Artis in such a high light, and specifically his peak (and getting him so close to the Ewing/Robinson group of bigs)...

Huh. Okay, I think we've arrived at the crux. You basically think there should be a 15-ish gap between centers between Ewing and the next guys down. Wow.

For the record, here's how the big men in question did in 2008:

28. Ewing
31. Gilmore
34. Reed
37. Cowens
43. McAdoo
44. Unseld
47. Walton

Not saying I agree with that, just that unless something major changes, I don't think the disconnect is really about Gilmore.

[penbeast0]

I dont understand why so many votes for Payton and Kidd and no one for Cousy ....

Cousy was severely overrated in his own time. He was a horrendously inefficient point guard who had a tendency to shoot too much who got deified because he was on the greatest dynasty in history. However, their offense (Cousy's department) sucked, and when he retired, the team didn't get any worse.

Also, in those great Celtic titles year after year . . . Cousy stunk out the joint every year shooting below his already inefficient season averages. Hard to say his offensive impact is so important when the team didn't do well offensively and he did even worse, even with Cousy's dominant playmaking skills that no one else in the 50s approached.

[penbeast0]

David Robinson runs away with the voting, the nomination is tied 6 to 6 between Gilmore and Stockton. If no one changes the nomination balance between now and midnight and my count is accurate (which is often isn't), I will abstain and let Stockton have the nomination.

VOTE

14 -- David Robinson – JordansBulls, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, therealbig3, shawngoat23, drza, ElGee, mysticbb, Jay from LA, David Stern, fatal9, Sedale Threatt, Gongxi, An Unbiased Fan

Elgin Baylor – FJS, pancakes3

Dwyane Wade – ronnymac2, Baller24

Steve Nash – Dr Mufasa

NOMINATE

6 -- Artis Gilmore – Doctor MJ, penbeast0, shawngoat23, mysticbb, therealbig3, Gongxi

6 -- John Stockton – FJS, Jerky Way, Jay from LA, David Stern, Sedale Threatt, An Unbiased Fan

Clyde Drexler – JordansBulls, ronnymac2, fatal9

Gary Payton – ElGee, Baller24

Wes Unseld – pancakes3

Dave Cowens – Dr Mufasa

Paul Pierce -- Fencer reregistered

Jason Kidd -- drza


NOT VOTING MEMBER

Pistol Pete Vecsey – still has not made a single post with anything more than a bare list of names and from the fact that he hasn’t responded to the 5 or so message like this I have left, unlikely he is reading other posts much either.

Koogiking -- hasn't been participating and isn't on the list

[Dr Positivity]

My count:

Robinson (15) – JordansBulls, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, therealbig3, shawngoat23, drza, ElGee, Fencer reregistered, Jay From LA, mysticbb, DavidStern, fatal9, Sedale Threatt, Gongxi, An Unbiased Fan
Wade (3) – JerkyWay, ronnymac2, Baller24
Baylor (2) – FJS, pancakes3
Nash (1) – Dr Mufasa

Noms

Stockton (6) – FJS, JerkyWay, Jay From LA, DavidStern, Sedale Threatt, An Unbiased Fan
Gilmore (6) – Doctor MJ, penbeast0, shawngoat23, therealbig3, mysticbb, Gongxi
Drexler (3) – JordansBulls, ronnymac2, fatal9
Pierce (2) – Fencer reregistered, drza
Payton (2) – ElGee, Baller24
Cowens (1) – Dr Mufasa
Unseld (1) – pancakes3

I'll change my nomination to Stockton if I counted right and it's tied

[ElGee]

Well, I agree he's in the next set of guys. But didn't we just nominate Patrick Ewing? I see a much larger gap...

I'm also not sure what you mean that if we ignore ABA he "kills most of these guys." Really? Does he kill Robert Parish if we ignore ABA?

The In/Out is only for one year, so it's not designed to sway. It's just *another* piece of evidence suggesting Artis wasn't really that special. I'm re-evaluating his 80s seasons and I think that will end up getting him closer to 40 than 50 on my list..so this is a guy I value higher than Marques Johnson, who I will argue my brains out for in this project. I guess I just don't get the evidence for holding Artis in such a high light, and specifically his peak (and getting him so close to the Ewing/Robinson group of bigs)...

Huh. Okay, I think we've arrived at the crux. You basically think there should be a 15-ish gap between centers between Ewing and the next guys down. Wow.

For the record, here's how the big men in question did in 2008:

28. Ewing
31. Gilmore
34. Reed
37. Cowens
43. McAdoo
44. Unseld
47. Walton

Not saying I agree with that, just that unless something major changes, I don't think the disconnect is really about Gilmore.

Well, if you're just assuming that there has to be another center nearby, then I suppose that's the source of the disconnect. Obviously I don't think there "should" be a gap, that's just how it falls. Independently evaluating all the players created a large gap between Ewing and the next center, be it Dwight Howard, or Gilmore or Walton or...Why?

None of the other major center players next down the line had the long, sustained, high-level years our centers above these guys had.

Reed with a super short stretch.
Walton, you know.
Cowens with a short stretch AND played in the split leagues.
McAdoo with a short peak and had that whole out of position thing (calling him a C is like calling Amare a C to me)
Unseld, well, he was just never that good.

And you didn't mention the guy I have battling with Gilmore...Bob Lanier. Which I think is a fantastic comparison. I would probably take Gilmore in a draft, Lanier has some health issues, but he also has a higher peak to me.

[penbeast0]

Lanier's team defensive impact in Detroit seems Amare-esque; that's a bigger issue than his health during his prime to me.

[Doctor MJ]

Well, if you're just assuming that there has to be another center nearby, then I suppose that's the source of the disconnect. Obviously I don't think there "should" be a gap, that's just how it falls. Independently evaluating all the players created a large gap between Ewing and the next center, be it Dwight Howard, or Gilmore or Walton or...Why?

None of the other major center players next down the line had the long, sustained, high-level years our centers above these guys had.

Reed with a super short stretch.
Walton, you know.
Cowens with a short stretch AND played in the split leagues.
McAdoo with a short peak and had that whole out of position thing (calling him a C is like calling Amare a C to me)
Unseld, well, he was just never that good.

And you didn't mention the guy I have battling with Gilmore...Bob Lanier. Which I think is a fantastic comparison. I would probably take Gilmore in a draft, Lanier has some health issues, but he also has a higher peak to me.

Well I don't know about "should", I just kind of assumed that when you talked about having Gilmore 20 spots lower than me we'd disagree about the ordering of big men, and debating Gilmore relative to other big men is a lot easier than relative to other types of players. I'll try to get into more details about Gilmore vs other types in the next thread.

[Pistol Pete Vescey]

NOT VOTING MEMBER

Pistol Pete Vecsey – still has not made a single post with anything more than a bare list of names and from the fact that he hasn’t responded to the 5 or so message like this I have left, unlikely he is reading other posts much either.

Untrue, sir, on both counts.

You are welcome to respect or disrespect my opinions as you see fit.

[penbeast0]

I want to hear them Pete. Tell us WHY you support guys, why you feel other guys are overrated. Back up your posts with numbers, quotes, etc. Help convince others -- that's what we are looking for.