RealGM Top 100 List #28

[Fencer reregistered]

Ack. Wrong premise in this post. Whole thing deserves deletion.

[Fencer reregistered]

I think Pierce has been a guy with something like a double-peak career, because I think his attitude and effort DID suffer a bit during some of Boston's worst years. Or maybe it's just been relatively level (injury year aside), as his athleticism, understanding, and attitude went along their respective trajectories.

One could slice the salami even finer -- the whole team quit on Pitino for a month or so once to get him fired -- but that would be overdoing it. Everybody has his good and bad months.

I think Pierce is actually better when he divides his focus more evenly between ends of the court, starting the 3rd quarter by explicitly thinking about what the team does or doesn't need him to do. Honestly, I'm not sure whether I think that makes him a bit better or a bit worse than when he used less judgment, but had more iso scoring skills; either way, it's close.

I also suspect win shares are better for comparing guys at the same position than for comparing post to perimeter players.

[ElGee]

@realbig3

Forgot to include your question about Hondo's pace-adjusted numbers. He was basically an 18-6-5 guy for the meat of his best years and on the not-so-good efficiency I posted earlier. Why that seems to have people defaulting to him, I have no idea. I really think people are misunderstanding those Celtics teams, but oh well...project has done a good job of adhering to criteria, so it's not like Havlicek's going 13th.

But I don't think he could do what Rick Barry did in Golden State in a million years...Barry's a primary offensive weapon. Havlicek is a cog...and if we say he's a primary weapon, which is fine, it's certainly not noticeably better than what Paul Pierce did in Boston, and he isn't even nominated despite 11 consecutive years of AS quality play or better (save 2007).

[ElGee]

So you have an 18-6-5 guy who plays more like Reggie Miller + transitioning gunning and better passing...but he does it on bad efficiency on teams with a bunch of other options...and this impresses people why?

Again, I have Hondo coming up shortly so I don't want to totally disparage him, but I wonder if I'd have to argue he were underrated if he played on a different team or if he didn't play 110 possessions a game in his 2 high-minute seasons. If Tracy McGrady plaed that many possessions per night at his 2003 scoring rate, he would have averaged about 46 points per game.

[Fencer reregistered]

If Tracy McGrady plaed that many possessions per night at his 2003 scoring rate, he would have averaged about 46 points per game.

Only if he had the stamina to maintain his level of play while doing it.

That's more than a joke; it's one of the genuine arguments for Havlicek. The guy went hard at both ends of the floor, indefatigably, or so we are told.

[Fencer reregistered]

When we finally get Pierce nominated, I look forward to discussing McGrady vs. McHale. Besides the similarity in names, they're both jaw-droppingly great offensive players (in very different ways) who were very good defenders (in McHale's case with the accolades to back it up), with not-so-great longevity, but who however were still pretty good players post-injury (McHale perhaps more so than McGrady), and who both never really proved they could be the #1 guy on a championship team (for very different reasons).

[ElGee]

If Tracy McGrady plaed that many possessions per night at his 2003 scoring rate, he would have averaged about 46 points per game.

Only if he had the stamina to maintain his level of play while doing it.

That's more than a joke; it's one of the genuine arguments for Havlicek. The guy went hard at both ends of the floor, indefatigably, or so we are told.

It's certainly something to take into account...then again I don't how much "credit" to give to Hondo in this discussion of scoring volume, because he seemed to take a lot of open court shots that, I don't know, Jeff Mullins could have just easily taken with a good outlet pass on a running team. It's like Stoudemire's dunks from Nash...not everyone can do it (as well), but really had little to do with some innate ability in Stoudemire. (And when Amare went to New York, basically all the points I measured last year in Helped Offense nearly perfectly went away...leaving his new scoring/efficiency numbers as a Knick.)

And interesting to note that T-Mac was a 40 mpg for the heart of his prime, while Hondo had the 2 45-minute seasons, but otherwise not much different. McGrady played 44 per in the 03 playoff series, for example, so we aren't talking about a specialized bench role being extrapolated way out.

[Fencer reregistered]

If Tracy McGrady plaed that many possessions per night at his 2003 scoring rate, he would have averaged about 46 points per game.

Only if he had the stamina to maintain his level of play while doing it.

That's more than a joke; it's one of the genuine arguments for Havlicek. The guy went hard at both ends of the floor, indefatigably, or so we are told.

It's certainly something to take into account...then again I don't how much "credit" to give to Hondo in this discussion of scoring volume, because he seemed to take a lot of open court shots that, I don't know, Jeff Mullins could have just easily taken with a good outlet pass on a running team. It's like Stoudemire's dunks from Nash...not everyone can do it (as well), but really had little to do with some innate ability in Stoudemire. (And when Amare went to New York, basically all the points I measured last year in Helped Offense nearly perfectly went away...leaving his new scoring/efficiency numbers as a Knick.)

And interesting to note that T-Mac was a 40 mpg for the heart of his prime, while Hondo had the 2 45-minute seasons, but otherwise not much different. McGrady played 44 per in the 03 playoff series, for example, so we aren't talking about a specialized bench role being extrapolated way out.

Fair enough up to a point, but 6th man at starter's minutes is a high-stamina role too. More important, he really played hard at BOTH ends, from all we know, and that's the unusual part. There are plenty of guys who had the ability to shine at both ends but didn't often do so at once, from Wilt (blocks notwithstanding) to Pierce. Then if they do so in clutch games or crunch time now and then (e.g. Pierce), that's a significant feather in their caps, but it's not like going all game, every game.

As for Havlicek's scoring, the eye test somewhat echoes your concerns. From looking at video, his shots were just proof of him being a highly skilled professional basketball player who could score from anywhere on the court, not one who made a whole different class of shots than other guys would, like Dirk's/Bird's/Kobe's highly contested shots, Isiah's yet more acrobatic layups, King's quick-release mid-range shots, Allen's/Miller's quick-release 3s, etc.

[drza]

I'm not sure where to go with this vote or nomination. I spent some time early in this thread, but I'm really just now coming back to it. I don't think I'm quite ready to nominate Walton yet, and he has no traction anyway, so I'm not really headed there. Part of me really wants to get some more older players under consideration, so if not Walton then Hayes, Reed, Cowens and even McAdoo are on my radar. Rodman and Mourning are also on my radar, but again, they really have no traction either.

This thread, then, seems to be primarily about Pierce vs TMac. That's a very interesting debate on it's own, and I really haven't participated in it much to date in this project. At it's heart, the way it's been outlined on both sides here, it's a question of peak/prime vs longevity.

The thing is, in this project I've been consistent. I voted Russell's and Magic's slightly higher (IMO) peaks over Kareem's much greater longevity. I voted Garnett's higher peak over Karl Malone's greater longevity. And despite being very swayed by the Dirk arguments, in the end I ended up voting LeBron's higher peak over Dirk's much greater longevity. Plus, I'm the guy itching to add Walton to the mix and he has NO longevity.

So, I guess for today's vote I'll stay consistent and vote for TMac's slightly higher peak over Pierce's longevity. In the end, especially with our emphasis in this project on picking the "best" player and not the most accomplished, I tend to side with the guy who I think was better. I think TMac was slightly better, had a slightly higher peak, and had a strong 7 years or so of prime before injuries got him. That's enough, then, to get my nomination today.

As for the vote, it seems that only Barry and Hondo have any traction. I'm not really a huge fan of either...to be honest, if I'd spent more time in this thread the last couple of days I might have really made a push for Zeke. As it is, though, having just read some of ElGee's posts I'm kind of leaning more Barry than Hondo even though Hondo is more "my kind" of player. I don't really have a lot of passion for this vote...in fact, bump it, I'm voting for who I think, not just to have a shot at influencing the vote. I haven't really worked out my Zeke arguments yet, I'm still not sure how much I can quantify his impact, but right at this moment I just feel like he was better than Barry and Hondo. And since he won't win, next thread maybe I'll have the time to lay out a case and you guys can try to convince my gut that it's incorrect and that (whichever of Barry/Hondo doesn't win) was actually better than Zeke too.

Vote: Isiah Thomas
Nominate: Tracy McGrady

[penbeast0]

As I said originally, my vote and nomination were very close between a few candidates so to widen the gap as we close this, I will switch to Havlicek and Pierce too.

VOTE --

John Stockton – mysticbb, FJS

Clyde Drexler – Jerky Way

John Havlicek – Dr Mufasa, Fencer, JordansBulls, Sedale Threatt, Laimbeer, DoctorMJ, Gongxi, penbeast0

Rick Barry – ronnymac2, David Stern, fatal9, therealbig3, ElGee, TMACFORMVP

Gary Payton – ElGee

Isiah Thomas -- drza


NOMINATE

Reggie Miller – mysticbb

Elvin Hayes – Jerky Way, FJS, Laimbeer

Paul Pierce – therealbig3, Dr Mufasa, Fencer, Doctor MJ, penbeast0

Bob McAdoo – ronnymac2

Bill Walton – JordansBulls

Gary Payton – ElGee

Willis Reed – Sedale Threatt

Kevin McHale – fatal9

Tracy McGrady – TMACFORMVP, Gongxi, drza

[Fencer reregistered]

Hooray! I was getting bored voting for Havlicek and Pierce. Now I can directly consider other candidates as well.

[ElGee]

I blame Doctor MJ's ridiculous ballot for this thread.

[Doctor MJ]

I blame Doctor MJ's ridiculous ballot for this thread.

I blame Bostonians.

[ElGee]

I blame Doctor MJ's ridiculous ballot for this thread.

I blame Bostonians.

For this thread or for everything?

[Doctor MJ]

I blame Doctor MJ's ridiculous ballot for this thread.

I blame Bostonians.

For this thread or for everything?

For everything but this thread funny enough. For this thread I blame the Dutch.

[penbeast0]

Heel mooi, danke