Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons

[nevetsov]

Like the fact that our FO is being proactive and not sitting on their a$$es like previous regimes. They obviously have a strong belief in how the salary cap will present moving forward and they are looking to exploit that as best they can.

$52/4 works out to an approximate starting salary of $12m combined.

I am very happy with Keef at $8.5m and Mook at $3.5m. Fair market value and if anything we are showing that we reward guys that want to be here and put in the effort to improve. Sends a positive message to the rest of our guys post the whole Bledsoe "keep my mouth shut" fiasco.

And if the twinmanship means that Keef wants to forego money to help his brother, good for him. How many players in this league would turn down an additional $10m just to give it to another player? Brothers and all that's pretty selfless. It's much easier to root for guys like that.

Here's hoping the hard work they put in this offseason elevates them to Milsap/ Tolliver levels of productivity respectively.

[phrazbit]

It wouldn't be a good deal in the future if we have to trade one or the other away. We can't just overpay Marcus now to keep them both happy cause then later on if we have to make a trade with just one of them, Marcus will have negative trade value.

But the future is an $80+M salary cap when the new TV deal goes through, so all players will be paid more.

Just because the cap is going up doesn't mean that spending will go up as well, how many teams even made a profit last year? not many.

Just because owners can spend more before going over the salary cap and into the luxury cap doesn't mean they will. Besides, the salary cap will not go up dramatically for at least 2 years. There have already been many reports that state that the nba will try and suppress the cap as much as they can. It benefits owners pockets too much to keep the salary cap low.

I have a feeling virtually the entire league made a profit. The recent CBA has made this a nearly zero risk enterprise. Thats why franchise values have tripled recently.

But I do agree that overpaying Marcus Morris is a questionable move. IMO he would be in line to get a 4 mil/2 year deal if he were a free agent. A guy who's only real ability is a slightly above average 3pt shot. This does feel like a 52 million dollar deal just for Markieff.

I think I would have preferred to roll the dice and wait until next summer. This does not feel like the advertised "discount to stay together". Markieff is coming at market value and Marcus is getting a serious overpay to tag along.

[jredsaz]

If Stein is correct about the "precise split", and it is indeed a 4 year extension and not 5, neither Morris is going anywhere for 4 years. Nobody will want Marcus at 4/26, and the Suns will certainly not want to part with such a steal of Markieff at 4/26.

Interesting.

All things considered, if it's something like Cus at 5/16 and Kieff at 5/36, then I think those are both ridiculously awesome contracts for the Suns.

ETA - Aren't rookie contract extensions treated differently than new contracts when it comes to offering 5 years? Thought I remembered something from the CBA FAQ about 5 year rook extensions can only be supermax.

Stien isn't saying the money will be split evenly. He is saying that the amount of money each player will be getting out of the $52 million is to be announced.

Im guessing Markieff 4/32 and Marcus 4/20.

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[JTrain]

I think it's 4/36 (9 per) for Keef and 4/16 (4 per) for Mook. Those are slight overpays IMO but not outrageous. Keef is probably worth 7-8 and Mook 3 or 3.5. These will seem pretty reasonable in two years with the new cap. McD is taking a slight risk but I think he likes their attitude and work ethic and is banking on them showing more improvement in the next couple years. They just turned 25.

Keef had a breakthrough season last year. His PER shot up from 12 to 18 and his WS/48 was second on the team after Dragic.

Mook at 4M is not going to kill us either way. He is a good bench player and plays well when on the floor with his brother. I do worry a bit about the overabundance at SF. PJ, TJ, Mook and Gerald. This makes it look like we will probably look to trade Gerald, which is sad-- I think his impact is underrated.

[Blackification]

Its reassuring that our GM actually has a plan and a solid grasp on the market and its projected movement.


And he is learning from the Bledsoe and Frye situations and locking down his players before their value gets any higher.

[i505]

If Stein is correct about the "precise split", and it is indeed a 4 year extension and not 5, neither Morris is going anywhere for 4 years. Nobody will want Marcus at 4/26, and the Suns will certainly not want to part with such a steal of Markieff at 4/26.

Interesting.

All things considered, if it's something like Cus at 5/16 and Kieff at 5/36, then I think those are both ridiculously awesome contracts for the Suns.

ETA - Aren't rookie contract extensions treated differently than new contracts when it comes to offering 5 years? Thought I remembered something from the CBA FAQ about 5 year rook extensions can only be supermax.

Stien isn't saying the money will be split evenly. He is saying that the amount of money each player will be getting out of the $52 million is to be announced.

Im guessing Markieff 4/32 and Marcus 4/20.

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Ahhh... durr... I just re-read it and yeah I see what he meant now. Haha.

Also, looking at the CBA FAQ again, a 5 year "extension" does indeed have to be a designated player supermax, but since the MoBros technically still have one year left, a "5 year deal" is actually called a "4 year extension", and can be whatever (up to the max).

So it is possible that we do something like I said above with the 5/16 and 5/36... which would be awesome.

[Revived]

10m$/y for Markieff Morris? are we all crazy now? Morris is in the same league of the Brandon Bass, Marvin Williams, Tristan Thompson, Brandan Wright, JJ Hickson, Terrence Jones, Scola, Hawes, Boozer, McRoberts, Landry, Thompson, Diaw, Patterson, Humphries...

Good back-ups that deserve something in the range of 6m$, not 10, no one would have throw that money to him, no one.

Mike Scott re-signed for 3m$ a year and he is better as a stretch PF than Marcus for christ sake.

Is a stupid move, period, surprisingly stupid from McD.

If Channing Frye got $8M, do you expect Kieff to get less?

[nevetsov]

Bearing in mind that these guys live together, likely split living expenses etc, I wouldn't at all be surprised if they want to split earnings evenly. They genuinely seem like they care more about brotherly equality and family than chasing the big dollars.

[JTrain]

I think it's safe to say if the league bans anyone 6'10" or taller, we are in the title hunt.

[gaspar]

I think you guys are underrating Marcus. Everyone just looks at him as just Markieff lesser brother but he's a very solid player.

Stats last year:
Marcus Morris - 9.7 pts, 3.9 reb, 1.1 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.2 blk, .552 TS%, .381 3P% (3.2 3PA), 14.8 PER in 22.0 mpg
Patrick Patterson - 8.5 pts, 5.3 reb, 1.2 ast, 0.8 stl, 0.6 blk, .533 TS%, .364 3P% (2.3 3PA), 14.6 PER in 23.6 mpg

Patterson got $6M per year this summer and no one said it's a bad contract. That's the market for this kind of players in today's NBA. Young, healthy, versatile wings, who can handle the ball a bit and are above average from range are worth the MLE. And don't forget that in college Marcus was better than Keef. He still has some upside.

[Ryu]

But I do agree that overpaying Marcus Morris is a questionable move. IMO he would be in line to get a 4 mil/2 year deal if he were a free agent. A guy who's only real ability is a slightly above average 3pt shot. This does feel like a 52 million dollar deal just for Markieff.

Mook has more than a decent midrange jumper also.

[phrazbit]

Triple the blocks and a lot more rebounds is nothing to scoff at for Patrick Paterson. The only thing Marcus does is provide slightly above average 3pt shooting. And I don't see Marcus getting 22 minutes again this season.

[gaspar]

Triple the blocks and a lot more rebounds is nothing to scoff at for Patrick Paterson. The only thing Marcus does is provide slightly above average 3pt shooting. And I don't see Marcus getting 22 minutes again this season.

The difference in rebounds and blocks is understandable, Patterson played 100% of time at PF or C, Marcus played 56% of his minutes at SF. Marcus takes much more threes per game and scores over 3pts/36min more than 2Pat.

And BTW last year the Suns were better defensively with Marcus on the court than with Tucker:

Tucker 104.7 DefRtg
Marcus 103.8 DefRtg

[phrazbit]

Triple the blocks and a lot more rebounds is nothing to scoff at for Patrick Paterson. The only thing Marcus does is provide slightly above average 3pt shooting. And I don't see Marcus getting 22 minutes again this season.

The difference in rebounds and blocks is understandable, Patterson played 100% of time at PF or C, Marcus played 56% of his minutes at SF. Marcus takes much more threes per game and scores over 3pts/36min more than 2Pat.

And BTW last year the Suns were better defensively with Marcus on the court than with Tucker:

Tucker 104.7 DefRtg
Marcus 103.8 DefRtg

Tucker was rotated in and out as a defensive specialist, that stat kind of screws him (and other guys who do the same role) because what you're basically looking at is how the Suns defended when the oppositions best scoring wing player was in the game vs when they were out of it.

[Kdab]

If we extend Dragic and the Morris twins, will we still have enough space to sign someone to help with interior defense and rebounding?

I personally hate this sign both or get nothing bs.

[Frank Lee]

The MoBros bought in, worked their asses of this summer, and now look to be rewarded. They are a two headed alpha male who have leadership qualities, moxey, and a desire to be here. Has anyone been working harder this off season ?

I am going to trust Bean counter Babby, it's easier that way.

But we sure need Len and Plum to produce and stay healthy if we are to amount to anything more than a high flying fast paced circus act. I'd really like to add a solid big... Hard to figure from where tho

[Kdab]

The MoBros bought in, worked their asses of this summer, and now look to be rewarded. They are a two headed alpha male who have leadership qualities, moxey, and a desire to be here. Has anyone been working harder this off season ?

I am going to trust Bean counter Babby, it's easier that way.

But we sure need Len and Plum to produce and stay healthy if we are to amount to anything more than a high flying fast paced circus act. I'd really like to add a solid big... Hard to figure from where tho

As much as I like their improvement last season, they still don't bring the interior defense and rebounding that the teams needs and is clearly lacking. At least they haven't shown that last season but maybe they have improved (same with Plumlee and Len). But 52 mil for a maybe starter and another role player is pretty hard to stomach.

[i505]

If we extend Dragic and the Morris twins, will we still have enough space to sign someone to help with interior defense and rebounding?

I personally hate this sign both or get nothing bs.

Hard to say exactly because there is slightly conflicting info out there, but assuming the 4/52 number for the Morrii, Bledsoe's new deal, plus our cap holds, it looks like we'll be almost capped out. Dragic is definitely NOT going to extend though. He will opt out and then resign for sure, so his cap hold will apply for us during the FA period next year.

Dragic - 11.2 (hold)
Thomas - 6.9
Tucker - 5.5
Bledsoe - 13.5
Len - 3.8
Green - 6.6 (hold)
Tolliver - 3
Kieff - 9
Cus - 4
Warren - 2
Randolph - .9 (hold)
Plumlee - 2.1
Archie - 1.1
Bogdan - 1
Ennis - 1.3
Barbosa - .9 (hold)

That total is 72.8, but I am not sure why Barbosa is on there and we'll probably renounce him, Green, and Randolph, so that would leave roughly 6 mil or so if the cap is at ~70 mil. Also, depending on which picks we get or don't (LAL and MIN) and where they land along with our own, that will eat into that number as well.

[Flying Colors]

For contract extensions, the number of years is added into the old number of years? Since we have both Morris at rookie scale for one more season the extension don't come into play until the season after next? So they will be under contract for the next 5 years, is this correct?

[i505]

For contract extensions, the number of years is added into the old number of years? Since we have both Morris at rookie scale for one more season the extension don't come into play until the season after next? So they will be under contract for the next 5 years, is this correct?

If we do a 4 year extension, then yes it is technically a 5 year contract starting this year.