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moocow007 wrote:Travis Wear would likely average 15 ppg and 6 rpg on the Pacers right now given that pretty much 4 of their top 6 players from last season are gone. The only clear benefit of doing this would be to shed Smiths contract with the notion that he'll opt in and that the Knicks would lose that cap space. This neither makes the Knicks better nor makes them more balanced for the Triangle.

You would still have Wear and Early to play some 3.

Tim Hardaway would be counted on the play the backup 2. Which would be a big step and he would have to really play some better defense. But it would free up more minutes for THjr which we them could showcase him and trade him for a future 1st rounder or a young player that Phil likes better.

When you get calderon back as well you could run Larkin and Calderon together at times. We would survive for sure without JR.

It may hurt us this year, but really we are talking about making sure we are in best position for next summer. I believe that is goal #1 while being competitive and developing the players that will be here in the future.

god shammgod wrote:

mpharris36 wrote:

god shammgod wrote:
why waste money on them ? if you're lucky enough to get gasol, you wait the extra year and make the hard sell to durant. gasol. melo. durant. you might actually win.

Do you really wait on Durant? I understand the hard sell, but if you are left with nothing you would have Melo at 32 years old and Marc at 32.

We already have our star. We would have another all-star caliber player in Marc Gasol and then you get key roles players.

Matthews is a good defender and 3 point shooter that could be a great secondary scorer or Green is a proven clutch player and defender.

Phil won with Kobe as his best players (Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom and Bynum as his secondary players.

It would be a risk waiting for Gasol for sure. You could really round out your team with a really really well put together and complementary roster instead with your 2 big names.

if you have a chance at durant, you don't ruin that chance to sign wes matthews. you can sign someone else in 2016 if durant doesn't come. i think you have to be in that race though if you can.

are you gonna win it all in that 1 year you wait with wes matthews ? probably not

I agree, but I am not sure if thats Phil's plan. Durant might be more of a pipe dream. We'd pretty much only have Melo + Gasol + rookies/cap holds to have a chance at Durant. The Calderon trade would hurt that plan too.

I am not sure if Phil would want to go all in on 3 max cats. He may prefer 2 max cats and a more balanced roster. Of course no team in their right mind would turn down Durant, but just not sure we will be going all in on that idea.

No matter what JR Smith does in the regular season this is still the guy that was out drinking the night before afternoon playoff games. JR Smith is not in this teams future and you don't know what you will get from him night after night. ANY opportunity to move this contract without needing to include an asset needs to be jumped on without thinking twice. JR wore out his welcome during the 2013 playoffs, and only made things worse next year.

We have 2 young prospects at SG - Shumpert and Hardaway. Let them play. Get JR off the team.

I'm not letting a 2-1 start fool me...free up the cap space please.

mpharris36 wrote:

moocow007 wrote:Travis Wear would likely average 15 ppg and 6 rpg on the Pacers right now given that pretty much 4 of their top 6 players from last season are gone. The only clear benefit of doing this would be to shed Smiths contract with the notion that he'll opt in and that the Knicks would lose that cap space. This neither makes the Knicks better nor makes them more balanced for the Triangle.

You would still have Wear and Early to play some 3.

Tim Hardaway would be counted on the play the backup 2. Which would be a big step and he would have to really play some better defense. But it would free up more minutes for THjr which we them could showcase him and trade him for a future 1st rounder or a young player that Phil likes better.

When you get calderon back as well you could run Larkin and Calderon together at times. We would survive for sure without JR.

It may hurt us this year, but really we are talking about making sure we are in best position for next summer. I believe that is goal #1 while being competitive and developing the players that will be here in the future.

Again, I'm just stating facts. The fantasy that somehow Copeland would be a better fit simply because he "shoots" is not true. You need guys who can make plays, who can create their own shots, who can defend as well as "shoot" in the Triangle. Copeland does 1 of those 4 things...Smith does all 4. If the goal is cap space then great that should be the reason to move him in this type of deal.

Moose wrote:I'm not letting a 2-1 start fool me...free up the cap space please.

this is more how I am leaning as well. I want them to win as much as possible and make the playoffs but any chance to get rid of JR contract without and additional assets leaving is a solid move in my opinion.

KingOfNewYork7 wrote:Dropping JR will give us around 24M to play with in the summer of 2015

No one knows what the cap will be.. And we aren't guarantee to get any one in FA, why would Marc Gasol, LMA, Wes Matthews and others leave their playoff teams? And I'm not a fan of over paying players to convince them to leave their teams also especially ones who are 30+. Sure, we need a big but there are others who are also younger (Greg Monroe, 24yrs,Paul Millsap) and might be cheaper.
And if JR opt in does he actually prevents us from offering the Max (or near) to possible Marc Gasol (Who I don't think is a strong number 2, and believe a younger Greg Monroe would be better)?

In order to be a serious contender for the top free agents the Knicks need to win. The top, top guys are not going to sign with the Knicks unless they show they can win. Sadly, the Knicks chances of winning are better with Smith than with Copeland. And the reality is that we are not building from youth, we are building with the notion of convincing the top veteran free agents to sign with this team. Just something to consider. I would hold onto Smith until the deadline and then see where that leads. Would not trade him right now for Copeland.

Gimme that cap space...plus Calderon's playmaking is coming soon. And Pablo has shown he can play the 2 for stretches.

2-1 is not fooling me.

I've been praying we'd be able to get his trade value high enough to dump his ass early in the season. Oh my, pleaaaaaaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

moocow007 wrote:In order to be a serious contender for the top free agents the Knicks need to win. The top, top guys are not going to sign with the Knicks unless they show they can win. Sadly, the Knicks chances of winning are better with Smith than with Copeland. And the reality is that we are not building from youth, we are building with the notion of convincing the top veteran free agents to sign with this team. Just something to consider. I would hold onto Smith until the deadline and then see where that leads. Would not trade him right now for Copeland.

So you are saying that losing JR would hurt our ability to get free agents? I would disagree with that. I would take the extra cap space. I don't think anyone is coming here to play with JR.

I'm good.

Besides Melo, JR is the best at creating his own shot. We can wait on dealing JR, especially if he might opt out after this season or at worst, will be considered an expiring.

I'd rather deal Calderon to be honest.

Deeeez Knicks wrote:

moocow007 wrote:In order to be a serious contender for the top free agents the Knicks need to win. The top, top guys are not going to sign with the Knicks unless they show they can win. Sadly, the Knicks chances of winning are better with Smith than with Copeland. And the reality is that we are not building from youth, we are building with the notion of convincing the top veteran free agents to sign with this team. Just something to consider. I would hold onto Smith until the deadline and then see where that leads. Would not trade him right now for Copeland.

So you are saying that losing JR would hurt our ability to get free agents? I would disagree with that. I would take the extra cap space. I don't think anyone is coming here to play with JR.

I'm saying that losing JR Smith for Chris Copeland would hurt our chances of winning. It's not about coming here to play with JR Smith. It's not about liking or hating JR Smith as a person. It's about who would give the KNicks a better shot at fielding a winning team. JR Smith is a better player than Copeland. He does more than Copeland. He's a better fit in the Triangle than Copeland. The Knicks have plenty of forwards that can score but cant do much of anything else (Bargnani, Stoudemire, Jason Smith). They don't need yet another one. The Knicks have 1 wing that can defend outside of JR Smith and no one that can really back up Anthony other than Smith. So...once and again...the ONLY benefit of this trade is to shed JR Smith's contract because you feel he may not opt out and that it may impact who they can sign. And if that's the goal and Jackson feels that that is more important, then definitely I'm with that. I'm just not with the fantasy that some guys have that trading Smith (for someone like Copeland) could both create the cap AND make this team better.

Deeeez Knicks wrote:

moocow007 wrote:In order to be a serious contender for the top free agents the Knicks need to win. The top, top guys are not going to sign with the Knicks unless they show they can win. Sadly, the Knicks chances of winning are better with Smith than with Copeland. And the reality is that we are not building from youth, we are building with the notion of convincing the top veteran free agents to sign with this team. Just something to consider. I would hold onto Smith until the deadline and then see where that leads. Would not trade him right now for Copeland.

So you are saying that losing JR would hurt our ability to get free agents? I would disagree with that. I would take the extra cap space. I don't think anyone is coming here to play with JR.

I think what Moo was saying that if JR helps us be say a #6 seed we would be better of keeping him then letting him go and risking not making the playoffs.

By making the playoffs Phil could sell someone like Marc Gasol, we made the playoffs last year without you, with you we could be a contender.

However the risk you run with that is JR getting hurt or opting in and holding hostage that 6.4 million of cap space.

It would still pull the trigger as I don't think he is that important to wins and losses. And that when Calderon comes back we will have another playmaker to make up for the loss of JR.

Selling Marc Gasol on coming to play with Melo and possibly another FA is better than just coming by himself too.

I know it's still super early but to JR's credit he seems to be figuring it out. He's not forcing things and he's actually been something of a facilitator early on.

DowNY wrote:I'm good.

Besides Melo, JR is the best at creating his own shot. We can wait on dealing JR, especially if he might opt out after this season or at worst, will be considered an expiring.

I'd rather deal Calderon to be honest.

But he untied Shawn Marion's shoelaces and likes to pipe so who cares what he does on the court and how he's the only other guy on the court that can create his own shot.

MaseInYourFace wrote:I know it's still super early but to JR's credit he seems to be figuring it out. He's not forcing things and he's actually been something of a facilitator early on.

I do agree with this, but he had 4 turnovers last night, almost fouled Lance Stephenson (was very close), and was still arguing with the refs.

In a low leverage situation like the hornets that didn't hurt us but JR still reverts back to being a idiot. He is what he is.

DowNY wrote:I'm good.

Besides Melo, JR is the best at creating his own shot. We can wait on dealing JR, especially if he might opt out after this season or at worst, will be considered an expiring.

I'd rather deal Calderon to be honest.

He'll create a lot of shots that he rarely makes.

moocow007 wrote:

DowNY wrote:I'm good.

Besides Melo, JR is the best at creating his own shot. We can wait on dealing JR, especially if he might opt out after this season or at worst, will be considered an expiring.

I'd rather deal Calderon to be honest.

But he untied Shawn Marion's shoelaces and likes to pipe so who cares what he does on the court and how he's the only other guy on the court that can create his own shot.

My question to you Moo is a simple one. Do you think Phil will sign JR to an additional contract?

Basically do you think he is personally part of our future?

moocow007 wrote:

Deeeez Knicks wrote:

moocow007 wrote:In order to be a serious contender for the top free agents the Knicks need to win. The top, top guys are not going to sign with the Knicks unless they show they can win. Sadly, the Knicks chances of winning are better with Smith than with Copeland. And the reality is that we are not building from youth, we are building with the notion of convincing the top veteran free agents to sign with this team. Just something to consider. I would hold onto Smith until the deadline and then see where that leads. Would not trade him right now for Copeland.

So you are saying that losing JR would hurt our ability to get free agents? I would disagree with that. I would take the extra cap space. I don't think anyone is coming here to play with JR.

I'm saying that losing JR Smith for Chris Copeland would hurt our chances of winning. It's not about coming here to play with JR Smith. It's about coming to a winning team. JR Smith is a better player than Copeland. He does more than Copeland. He's a better fit in the Triangle than Copeland. The Knicks have plenty of forwards that can score but cant do much of anything else (Bargnani, Stoudemire, Jason Smith). The Knicks have 1 wing that can defend outside of JR Smith and no one that can really back up Anthony other than Smith. So...once and again...the ONLY benefit of this trade is to shed JR Smith's contract because you feel he may not opt out and that it may impact who they can sign.

Well, I can't disagree with you. It is a downgrade. But thats the main purpose of the trade and it could be a pretty big benefit. Its year 1 of a long term process and the future is a lot more important then this season.

Plus, while it may hurt, I don't think it'll hurt that much. I think we'll survive just fine