Better peak - Leonard vs Russell

[PistolPeteJR]

I’m simply dying at those picking Kawhi here because he was “a much better scorer, and slightly less impactful on defense”.

Do us all a favour and don’t chime in if you legitimately have no clue who Bill Russell truly was. It’s embarrassing for you, trust me.

[LKN]

Russell isn't massively better than Leonard at any thing unless you want to try the health argument.

Scoring - Leonard is massively better
Passing - Russell is slightly better
Defense - Russell is slightly better

Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position.

Overall, Leonard is better.

Leonard is a 2 time defensive player of the year and was the catalyst for one of the greatest defensive playoff runs ever in 2019. At the end of the day, Leonard is much better on defense than Russell is on offense.

Russell could lose an arm and still be a more impactful defender than Kawhi would ever hope to be

New thread - Better defender - Kawhi or Russell with one arm? LMAO

[Franco]

47 wins and about 5 of those wins were because of Kawhi. They were a 42 win team in 2018 without Kawhi, so they dropped 19 wins. That's a pretty big gap. The offense also went from 9th to 17th without Kawhi.

The Spurs went 5-4 on the 9 games Kawhi played that season. Please tell me how Kawhi's 17 minutes against the Clippers were the reason they blew them out by 18, or how a 32 point obliteration of the Nuggets would be lost without Kawhi's 27 minutes.

2016 Kawhi had one of the greatest defensive seasons ever

For a forward.

and had nearly 3 blocks a game in the 1st round, he was also the teams leading scorer.

Why pick the 1st round against an opponent that the Spurs overall overwhelmed? The games weren't even close, Memphis got spanked from start to finish in a brutal sweep.

Kawhi's BPM that season was 8.3 and Aldridge was 1.8 hahaha

Nice picking the 7th highest BPM of the team to make a point

Kawhi was the best player on the team, it wasn't an overwhelming margin. SAS had 3 players in top 20 RPM, 4 of the top 25, and 5 of the top 40.

You're a cavs fan and should know a soft star player when you see one (Kevin Love) and trust me Aldridge is no different. Kawhi was by far the teams best player, you're delusional.

Kawhi sure was being by far the best player over "soft Aldridge" when they were losing a game by one point, where LMA dropped 41 on OKC's head on 15/21 from the field and 10/10 from the line,
while Kawhi was getting roasted by KD and scoring 14 points on 18 shots.

My point is exactly that Kawhi was the best player on the team the team, but in no way was it “by far and away”

You are exactly what I'm talking about, you are mad at Kawhi because you know Kawhi is about to wipe the floor with your hero Lebron's old ass.

You think I give a flying **** about what Kawhi does or doesn’t do against LeBron in LAL? Kawhi was barely ever in my mind as a fan, because he never went up against us in the playoffs. What he does as long as it isn’t beating Cleveland is none of my business.

You are exactly the salty Kawhi stand that will be the laughing stock of the PC Board for next year, this has happened before. You’re just next in line

Watch on YouTube

Kawhi effortlessly destroy Lebron 2 years ago, imagine what he's going to do to him now.

It would’ve been good for him to effortlessly destroy KD too, considering that was his best shot at even getting to LeBron in the first place.

Spurs won 67 games and 61 games in Leonard's 2 prime years with him only playing 72 games. If Leonard played all 82 games? We are looking at 70 win and 65 win teams.

That’s ludicrous. Kawhi can’t play 82 games, it’s not because he doesn’t want to. The best ability is availability.

Also, that’s hilarious. Kawhi wasn’t the only player missing games in 2016. Parker played 72 games, Aldridge 74, Duncan 61, Manu 58. I’m guessing you’ll say that if everyone player all 82 games, the Spurs would go 82-0?

The gap on that and spurs 2018 below 45 win team is still pretty big.

As big as a 55 win team that beat said 67 win team and going up 3-1 against a 73 win team, then when Durant leaves next season they get ragdolled by Houston in the first round (and never get out of it again)?

Or a NBA Championship team that falls out of the playoffs altogether when Russell retired?

Or a 61 win team that falls to bottom 3 record in the league when LeBron left?

Most all-time players don’t have the luxury of their supporting cast winning even 30 games without them, much less 47.

Any team that prime Leonard plays at least 70 games in is winning between 61-67 and imagine if he plays 82 games?

This is ridiculous. Leonard was literally playing for the most stable franchise in the NBA, for arguably the GOAT coach, and they made the playoffs both without and after he left.

Besides, if Kawhi can’t play more than 70 games, that’s his problem.

Probably in the 70 win range and thats what I expect this year or next year from him.

So I have you on record predicting that the Clippers will win 70 games or more in 2020 or 2021? I’ll hold you to that, if you confirm it.

You laugh at Lamarcus being the 7th highest BPM but than you argue he wasn't carried by Kawhi? Thats contradicting yourself. Kawhi carried his ass to 60 wins

And you simply skip the fact of the Spurs having multiple top RPM and RAPM guys? Besides, Aldridge is pretty close to Kawhi in WS and WS/48, even with a mind boggling low BPM.

2016 was Kawhi's first year as a go 2 guy first option scorer and he was hardly even outplayed by Durant, that's pretty sad on Durant's part if you think about it. Durant already had 5 seasons of playoff experience as the number one guy.

Kawhi in 2016 vs thunder: 23 points 48/28/75 splits

Durant in 2016 vs spurs: 28 points on 50/29/89 splits

Durant: 28.6 on 60TS%

Kawhi: 23.2 in 55TS%

That’s a considerable gap in efficiency if you ask me.

Besides, Kawhi was arguably outplayed by Aldridge that series anyway.

All Durant did was shoot free throws better! So your claim to bragging about Durant out playing Kawhi is really just "he shot better free throws". Again, sad on Durant's part considering that was Kawhi's 1st year as a 1st option.

It was Kawhi’s 2nd year as a 1st option.

And all that you said before irrelevant, what year he was as a 1st option doesn’t matter. Kawhi had 4 years of playoff experience by then, so no excuses for him either.

On top of that, the gap on Westbrook and Lamarcus is huge. Go check Lamarcus playoff scoring efficiency, it drops pretty much every year. I know soft when I see one and thats Lamarcus.

Nobody has been able to stop Kawhi... except himself, by being injured.

Russell guarded MVPs head to head more often than Kawhi, and a better player than Kawhi did (Wilt Vs Giannis), and he did a better job than Kawhi too.

Russell is a much better defensive player than Kawhi, it’s not close. He’s a much better rebounder, and again, it’s not even close. He’s also a much better passer than Kawhi.

Kawhi is a much better scorer, and... that’s it. He has no argument here.

[Bidofo]

Kawhi in 2016 vs thunder: 23 points 48/28/75 splits

Durant in 2016 vs spurs: 28 points on 50/29/89 splits

All Durant did was shoot free throws better! So your claim to bragging about Durant out playing Kawhi is really just "he shot better free throws".

It takes some mental gymnastics to get to this conclusion. Durant is shooting better from the field, three, and the FT line, on higher volume, but yea, it's equivalent to "Durant just shot better free throws." Of course in this scenario, you want to ignore bringing up TS% (when otherwise you'd be boasting "600+ points on 60+%TS!!!!!") because it doesn't look so good for Kawhi, does it?

RS -> PS
Durant: 63.4%TS -> 60.1%TS = -3.3%TS, 122 ORTG -> 114 ORTG = -8
Kawhi: 61.6%TS -> 55.4%TS = -6.2%TS, 121 ORTG -> 109 ORTG = -12

Kawhi for whatever reason saw a drop in FT%! Maybe if Kawhi doesn't miss both his FTs in a 1-point game 2 loss (while Aldridge put on a Herculean effort), the Spurs would win that game?

Any case to be made for Kawhi outplaying Durant must be made up for on defense...and I'm not so sure Kawhi does that, especially when those percentage drops are typical pre-GSW KD efficiency drops.

On top of that, the gap on Westbrook and Lamarcus is huge. Go check Lamarcus playoff scoring efficiency, it drops pretty much every year. I know soft when I see one and thats Lamarcus.

Bringing up playoff scoring efficiency drops for Aldridge while comparing him to Westbrook of all people might not be the comparison you want to make lol Westbrook was shooting them out this series, especially in the game 3 4-point loss. He was putrid that game. Westbrook's value came from playmaking, where he was absolutely stellar, but it's hard to ignore that 48%TS while shooting more shots than KD. Literally no one else on that team was passing, forget guys like Dion Waiters and Andre Roberson getting big minutes. Meanwhile, Kawhi is playing in a Spurs system that emphasizes ball movement, has top notch passers in Ginobili and Diaw, and all around good passing from guys like Parker, and he still couldn't take advantage.

I also don't get the slander on Aldridge, he was churning out 27 points on 58.6%TS, he was easily playing better than Kawhi that series. Personally, I'd say him and Kawhi were 1a and 1b in terms of options on offense, but doesn't it say something if you think Kawhi was the first option and still was getting outplayed by the "soft" Aldridge?

Really, the only thing you can conclusively say Kawhi did better than Durant was rebound the ball (by the slimmest of margins) and keeping turnovers low.

Also, not to be forgotten is the fact that the Spurs last year, led by the first-time Spur Derozan and Aldridge, put up a +2.5 offense, which is better than the +2.3 offense the 2017 Spurs had with the ever-improved Kawhi as the clear first option. In fact, it's been pointed out (specifically by E-Balla) how Kawhi-led offenses don't really reach the heights that one would think they should given his reputation as an offensive player. How do you reconcile that? Is Derozan really a better offensive lead than Kawhi?

I'm all for choosing 2016 as Kawhi's peak, he was still at the top on defense and played within the system well, but saying Russell was slightly a better defender just makes you look delusional, and Kawhi winning the next 3 MVPs and FMVPs and DPOTYs and MIPs and whatever isn't going to change how absurd of an opinion that is.

[Dr Spaceman]

It takes some mental gymnastics to get to this conclusion.

Sums up this entire thread.

This is like when Monta Ellis said “only difference between me and D-Wade is 2 championship rings”.

[Gooner]

Why it doesn't surprise me that only Jordan stan picks Kawhi here?

I mean, "the game has evolved" would also apply to Jordan,,.

No way, 1988 was just like yesterday!

And it was played on a higher level than today. It's not about the time, it's about quality. There are many world records in athletics from 80's that still stand. There are none from the 60's. There is a difference between those two eras in basketball, and in sports in general. I use athletics as an example because of it's exact measurements. If it wasn't for those measurements, you would say that track and field athletes are so much better today because everything always gets better just with time passing by. Everybody is so much more athletic today! Training techniques and competitive strategies are so sophisticated! Like today's NBA defenses...lol.

As I said, it's about quality, and the 60's basketball was far from the 80's basketball in those terms. Let alone from the 90's, when Jordan actually won his titles.

[Gooner]

I mean, "the game has evolved" would also apply to Jordan,,.

That was the peak of the NBA. Russell played before modern era.

Because Jordan played then, right?

That's a part of it, but the overall level was just better, from athletic, physical, technical, and tactical standpoint.

[70sFan]

That was the peak of the NBA. Russell played before modern era.

Because Jordan played then, right?

That's a part of it, but the overall level was just better, from athletic, physical, technical, and tactical standpoint.

The difference between 1960s and 1980s basketball is much smaller than the difference between 1980s and 2010s. Especially from technical and tactical standpoint. Not to mention that there are plenty of athletes from 1960s better than from 1980s.

It's just your wishful thinking that basketball peaked in 1980s and 1990s. You want to believe in that, so you do. There is nothing that suggests 1960s is further from 1980s than 1980s from 2010s.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

The Spurs went 5-4 on the 9 games Kawhi played that season. Please tell me how Kawhi's 17 minutes against the Clippers were the reason they blew them out by 18, or how a 32 point obliteration of the Nuggets would be lost without Kawhi's 27 minutes.



For a forward.



Why pick the 1st round against an opponent that the Spurs overall overwhelmed? The games weren't even close, Memphis got spanked from start to finish in a brutal sweep.



Nice picking the 7th highest BPM of the team to make a point

Kawhi was the best player on the team, it wasn't an overwhelming margin. SAS had 3 players in top 20 RPM, 4 of the top 25, and 5 of the top 40.





Kawhi sure was being by far the best player over "soft Aldridge" when they were losing a game by one point, where LMA dropped 41 on OKC's head on 15/21 from the field and 10/10 from the line,
while Kawhi was getting roasted by KD and scoring 14 points on 18 shots.

My point is exactly that Kawhi was the best player on the team the team, but in no way was it “by far and away”





You think I give a flying **** about what Kawhi does or doesn’t do against LeBron in LAL? Kawhi was barely ever in my mind as a fan, because he never went up against us in the playoffs. What he does as long as it isn’t beating Cleveland is none of my business.

You are exactly the salty Kawhi stand that will be the laughing stock of the PC Board for next year, this has happened before. You’re just next in line



It would’ve been good for him to effortlessly destroy KD too, considering that was his best shot at even getting to LeBron in the first place.

Spurs won 67 games and 61 games in Leonard's 2 prime years with him only playing 72 games. If Leonard played all 82 games? We are looking at 70 win and 65 win teams.

That’s ludicrous. Kawhi can’t play 82 games, it’s not because he doesn’t want to. The best ability is availability.

Also, that’s hilarious. Kawhi wasn’t the only player missing games in 2016. Parker played 72 games, Aldridge 74, Duncan 61, Manu 58. I’m guessing you’ll say that if everyone player all 82 games, the Spurs would go 82-0?



As big as a 55 win team that beat said 67 win team and going up 3-1 against a 73 win team, then when Durant leaves next season they get ragdolled by Houston in the first round (and never get out of it again)?

Or a NBA Championship team that falls out of the playoffs altogether when Russell retired?

Or a 61 win team that falls to bottom 3 record in the league when LeBron left?

Most all-time players don’t have the luxury of their supporting cast winning even 30 games without them, much less 47.





This is ridiculous. Leonard was literally playing for the most stable franchise in the NBA, for arguably the GOAT coach, and they made the playoffs both without and after he left.

Besides, if Kawhi can’t play more than 70 games, that’s his problem.



So I have you on record predicting that the Clippers will win 70 games or more in 2020 or 2021? I’ll hold you to that, if you confirm it.



And you simply skip the fact of the Spurs having multiple top RPM and RAPM guys? Besides, Aldridge is pretty close to Kawhi in WS and WS/48, even with a mind boggling low BPM.



Durant: 28.6 on 60TS%

Kawhi: 23.2 in 55TS%

That’s a considerable gap in efficiency if you ask me.

Besides, Kawhi was arguably outplayed by Aldridge that series anyway.



It was Kawhi’s 2nd year as a 1st option.

And all that you said before irrelevant, what year he was as a 1st option doesn’t matter. Kawhi had 4 years of playoff experience by then, so no excuses for him either.

Nobody has been able to stop Kawhi... except himself, by being injured.

Russell guarded MVPs head to head more often than Kawhi, and a better player than Kawhi did (Wilt Vs Giannis), and he did a better job than Kawhi too.

Russell is a much better defensive player than Kawhi, it’s not close. He’s a much better rebounder, and again, it’s not even close. He’s also a much better passer than Kawhi.

Kawhi is a much better scorer, and... that’s it. He has no argument here.

Duncan played 61 and manu 58, yet they still won 67 games? That shows it was Kawhi's team right there. Besides, you are seriously bringing up Duncan in 2016? You realize he was a bench warmer in the OKC series right? Duncan and Manu were not star players anymore who had a huge effect on the teams record, they were simply role players. Kawhi is the star and the one that makes an impact on records. If kawhi plays 80 games, they win about 65 in 2017 and 70 in 2016. Without kawhi in 2018, they win less than 45. Thats still 25 win difference.

Kawhi in 2015 didn't get the offense handed to him yet, his usage was still too low. Duncan was looking to repeat for the first time ever. Playoffs the offense still went through Duncan in the post quite often. It wasn't until 2017 where Kawhi was fully handed the offense. Even 2016, he was 1a to lamarcus 1b.

Leonard in 2016/2017 played over 70 games which is enough to win MVP, that's not injury prone. Than in 2019 he played just about the same amount of games as 2002 shaq or 05 Duncan.

Kawhi with clippers said he's not going to need load management and if he plays over 75 games, I predict 70 wins.

KD shot better free throws was the only significant edge he had on kawhi who was in his first year as having his own offense. Even than, 2016 kawhi was a 1a to Lamarcus 1b. Once Kawhi became the clear cut guy in 2017, he has been an unstoppable force.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Kawhi in 2016 vs thunder: 23 points 48/28/75 splits

Durant in 2016 vs spurs: 28 points on 50/29/89 splits

All Durant did was shoot free throws better! So your claim to bragging about Durant out playing Kawhi is really just "he shot better free throws".

It takes some mental gymnastics to get to this conclusion. Durant is shooting better from the field, three, and the FT line, on higher volume, but yea, it's equivalent to "Durant just shot better free throws." Of course in this scenario, you want to ignore bringing up TS% (when otherwise you'd be boasting "600+ points on 60+%TS!!!!!") because it doesn't look so good for Kawhi, does it?

RS -> PS
Durant: 63.4%TS -> 60.1%TS = -3.3%TS, 122 ORTG -> 114 ORTG = -8
Kawhi: 61.6%TS -> 55.4%TS = -6.2%TS, 121 ORTG -> 109 ORTG = -12

Kawhi for whatever reason saw a drop in FT%! Maybe if Kawhi doesn't miss both his FTs in a 1-point game 2 loss (while Aldridge put on a Herculean effort), the Spurs would win that game?

Any case to be made for Kawhi outplaying Durant must be made up for on defense...and I'm not so sure Kawhi does that, especially when those percentage drops are typical pre-GSW KD efficiency drops.

On top of that, the gap on Westbrook and Lamarcus is huge. Go check Lamarcus playoff scoring efficiency, it drops pretty much every year. I know soft when I see one and thats Lamarcus.

Bringing up playoff scoring efficiency drops for Aldridge while comparing him to Westbrook of all people might not be the comparison you want to make lol Westbrook was shooting them out this series, especially in the game 3 4-point loss. He was putrid that game. Westbrook's value came from playmaking, where he was absolutely stellar, but it's hard to ignore that 48%TS while shooting more shots than KD. Literally no one else on that team was passing, forget guys like Dion Waiters and Andre Roberson getting big minutes. Meanwhile, Kawhi is playing in a Spurs system that emphasizes ball movement, has top notch passers in Ginobili and Diaw, and all around good passing from guys like Parker, and he still couldn't take advantage.

I also don't get the slander on Aldridge, he was churning out 27 points on 58.6%TS, he was easily playing better than Kawhi that series. Personally, I'd say him and Kawhi were 1a and 1b in terms of options on offense, but doesn't it say something if you think Kawhi was the first option and still was getting outplayed by the "soft" Aldridge?

Really, the only thing you can conclusively say Kawhi did better than Durant was rebound the ball (by the slimmest of margins) and keeping turnovers low.

Also, not to be forgotten is the fact that the Spurs last year, led by the first-time Spur Derozan and Aldridge, put up a +2.5 offense, which is better than the +2.3 offense the 2017 Spurs had with the ever-improved Kawhi as the clear first option. In fact, it's been pointed out (specifically by E-Balla) how Kawhi-led offenses don't really reach the heights that one would think they should given his reputation as an offensive player. How do you reconcile that? Is Derozan really a better offensive lead than Kawhi?

I'm all for choosing 2016 as Kawhi's peak, he was still at the top on defense and played within the system well, but saying Russell was slightly a better defender just makes you look delusional, and Kawhi winning the next 3 MVPs and FMVPs and DPOTYs and MIPs and whatever isn't going to change how absurd of an opinion that is.

Durant only shot less than 2% better FG and 1% better from three. The only major difference in their stats that series was free throw shooting.

Westbrook doesn't rely on scoring efficiency like Lamarcus. Once Lamarcus efficiency declines, he's pretty much worthless. 2016 Westbrook was just the more impactful overall player than Lamarcus. Westbrook won MVP the very next year! KD not only had the advantage of having the much better teammate but also being in his 6th season as a offensive star to Kawhi's 1st season. The only significant thing Durant has to show for it is shooting free throws better.

2017 Kawhi is on a whole another level as an offensive player than 2016 Kawhi. The problem with the offense is Lamarcus didn't accept or doesn't know how to be a sidekick. Lamarcus can still be #1 option with Derozan but once he took a clear #2 role is when he dragged the entire offense down.

[70sFan]

I think that it can be assumed that most reasonable posters picked Russell in this thread. Don't forget that we are all biased haters though and we simply don't know what we look at.

BTW, ElGee has Kawhi as a weak MVP candidate and Russell as GOAT candidate, but it's simply because he's too limited to understand Kawhi's superiority. Just like us.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I think that it can be assumed that most reasonable posters picked Russell in this thread. Don't forget that we are all biased haters though and we simply don't know what we look at.

BTW, ElGee has Kawhi as a weak MVP candidate and Russell as GOAT candidate, but it's simply because he's too limited to understand Kawhi's superiority. Just like us.

It's not fair you pick a 27 year old, especially one with Kawhi's work ethic and determination. In 1991, would people take Jordan over Russell? The voting would probably be similar to this poll. Now that Jordan is retired, majority people take him over Russell.

Kawhi already has one of the greatest playoff runs ever and now he just found his Pippen. Kawhi is about to have about 6 or 7 deep playoff runs with George and most of them will end with rings too. I think by that time, people will see it my way. At least you can say I warned ya.

[Senior]

just once in my life i need to see HBK and JB duking it out in an MJ vs Kawhi thread

[freethedevil]

Nobody has been able to stop Kawhi... except himself, by being injured.

Or philly when they stepped their drop coverage here leading to kawhi's effiency plummeting....

[70sFan]

I think that it can be assumed that most reasonable posters picked Russell in this thread. Don't forget that we are all biased haters though and we simply don't know what we look at.

BTW, ElGee has Kawhi as a weak MVP candidate and Russell as GOAT candidate, but it's simply because he's too limited to understand Kawhi's superiority. Just like us.

It's not fair you pick a 27 year old, especially one with Kawhi's work ethic and determination. In 1991, would people take Jordan over Russell? The voting would probably be similar to this poll. Now that Jordan is retired, majority people take him over Russell.

Kawhi already has one of the greatest playoff runs ever and now he just found his Pippen. Kawhi is about to have about 6 or 7 deep playoff runs with George and most of them will end with rings too. I think by that time, people will see it my way. At least you can say I warned ya.

Picking Jordan after 1991 would be much easier to explain because he was better player than Kawhi at any point. If Clippers win next 3 rings and Kawhi don't play better, he won't be considered better than Russell either.

You assume that people don't see Kawhi greatness. They do, but you clearly overrate him.

BTW, I'd still pick Russell over Jordan on my GOAT list and I'm not alone.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Or philly when they stepped their drop coverage here leading to kawhi's effiency plummeting....

Philly? Leonard had 35 PPG on 63% TS that series and averaged 41 PPG in 3/4 wins. Kawhi was embiid's worst nightmare. Embiid should be kissing Paul George every day for taking Kawhi out of the east.

There is a trend here too and the trend is when Kawhi is his teams leading scorer, his teams rarely ever lose a playoff series. 2015 is the only exception but that series was mostly about the Duncan vs Jordan post matchup and wasn't a Kawhi team. On the other side of things, take a jackass like Lamarcus who thinks he's a #1 guy but actually is not and you lose a series easily like 2016.

So far since Kawhi has made himself the clear cut man in 2017, he hasn't lost a playoff series unless he was injured. Why? Kawhi's scoring translates great to the playoffs! While a guy like Lamarcus does not understand that he's not supposed to be a leading scorer on any playoff team because he's simply not good enough. I'm just glad Kawhi ran away from Lamarcus the choker. I think the trade demand could of had a lot to do with Lamarcus more than anything.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I think that it can be assumed that most reasonable posters picked Russell in this thread. Don't forget that we are all biased haters though and we simply don't know what we look at.

BTW, ElGee has Kawhi as a weak MVP candidate and Russell as GOAT candidate, but it's simply because he's too limited to understand Kawhi's superiority. Just like us.

It's not fair you pick a 27 year old, especially one with Kawhi's work ethic and determination. In 1991, would people take Jordan over Russell? The voting would probably be similar to this poll. Now that Jordan is retired, majority people take him over Russell.

Kawhi already has one of the greatest playoff runs ever and now he just found his Pippen. Kawhi is about to have about 6 or 7 deep playoff runs with George and most of them will end with rings too. I think by that time, people will see it my way. At least you can say I warned ya.

Picking Jordan after 1991 would be much easier to explain because he was better player than Kawhi at any point. If Clippers win next 3 rings and Kawhi don't play better, he won't be considered better than Russell either.

You assume that people don't see Kawhi greatness. They do, but you clearly overrate him.

BTW, I'd still pick Russell over Jordan on my GOAT list and I'm not alone.

2017 Kawhi plugged in for 1990 Jordan would at least get to the east finals vs pistons

2019 Kawhi plugged in for 1991 Jordan can beat magic with no worthy and DIVAC. Hahhaha divac as 2nd best player that's cute.

I don't see anything 90s Jordan did that Kawhi couldn't do. Give Kawhi a pippen level player and he would never lose a series. Imagine Pippen's ball handling, playmaking, defense paired up with Kawhi? They are not losing.

If you have Russell over Jordan as well than to each its own.

[freethedevil]

Or philly when they stepped their drop coverage here leading to kawhi's effiency plummeting....

Philly? Leonard had 35 PPG on 63% TS .

Which includes numbers from before they stepped up their drop coverage. After that kawhi's insane effiency plummeted and in game 7 he shot with woeful effiency leading to a tight ass game.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

just once in my life i need to see HBK and JB duking it out in an MJ vs Kawhi thread

Hahahhah I am not trying to troll, I am telling you how I see it. Durant Curry and especially Harden do not have games that translate to the playoffs as great as Kawhi's game does. Kawhi also has determination and will to win that far outmatches any of those players. Kawhi is the chosen one of this generation. Trust me, within time you will see. Or just go back and watch 2019 playoffs again. At the end of the day, its just my opinion and I dont see myself superior to any poster here. I am just trying to inform you guys what I saw based on scouting Kawhi in the playoffs his last couple runs.

[70sFan]

It's not fair you pick a 27 year old, especially one with Kawhi's work ethic and determination. In 1991, would people take Jordan over Russell? The voting would probably be similar to this poll. Now that Jordan is retired, majority people take him over Russell.

Kawhi already has one of the greatest playoff runs ever and now he just found his Pippen. Kawhi is about to have about 6 or 7 deep playoff runs with George and most of them will end with rings too. I think by that time, people will see it my way. At least you can say I warned ya.

Picking Jordan after 1991 would be much easier to explain because he was better player than Kawhi at any point. If Clippers win next 3 rings and Kawhi don't play better, he won't be considered better than Russell either.

You assume that people don't see Kawhi greatness. They do, but you clearly overrate him.

BTW, I'd still pick Russell over Jordan on my GOAT list and I'm not alone.

2017 Kawhi plugged in for 1990 Jordan would at least get to the east finals vs pistons

2019 Kawhi plugged in for 1991 Jordan can beat magic with no worthy and DIVAC. Hahhaha divac as 2nd best player that's cute.

I don't see anything 90s Jordan did that Kawhi couldn't do. Give Kawhi a pippen level player and he would never lose a series. Imagine Pippen's ball handling, playmaking, defense paired up with Kawhi? They are not losing.

If you have Russell over Jordan as well than to each its own.

All you talk is team performance, Jordan was better because he was better playmaker, scorer and offensive player than Kawhi, not because he beat 1991 Lakers. Lesser players than Jordan would win a ring in 1991, it doesn't change the fact that they are worse.

Your arguments are clueless. Kawhi is better than Russell "because he hasn't lost since 2017" which means he won 5 series in a row. Even though Russell won 21 series in a row when healthy.

Kawhi is better than Russell because he beat Sixers, even though Russell beat the best Sixers team of all-times.

The only argument for Kawhi over Bill Russell is scoring. That's strong argument, but far too weak to give him edge.

Russell was ten times more impactful defender than Kawhi and I don't care that Leonard shut down Jimmy Butler in one game. Russell had far more accomplishments than that. Kawhi didn't stop Giannis and Giannis already struggled individually in first game even though Kawhi didn't guard him then.

You just use empty narratives to push Kawhi into GOAT tier and you make people dislike Leonard here. Have you ever thought that when almost all people tell you that you are wrong (and some of them are far more knowledgeable than either one of us), then maybe (just MAYBE) you are wrong?