2020 Off-season Discussion

[LofJ]

Mitch has made it pretty clear they don't expect to win many games this year.

[BigSlam]

Its not just Ball who can't play defense

That’s my entire point. He’s going to have to be surrounded by very strong defenders - and also very strong shooters/scorers. We don’t have that right now - any of that. How many years is it going to take to add all those pieces that Ball needs to be surrounded by? Because this roster is going to need to be totally flipped.

One of the things I loved about Walker when he was our PG was that even when he couldn’t shoot (which I did not love) he could still pass the ball and crates shots for others and he could still drive and get to the line AND his effort and effectiveness on defence was outstanding - staying in front of his man, stepping in and taking charges etc.

Because he put in so much effort on defence there wasn’t as much pressure on the wings around him.


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[DY_nasty]

Its not just Ball who can't play defense

That’s my entire point. He’s going to have to be surrounded by very strong defenders - and also very strong shooters/scorers. We don’t have that right now - any of that. How many years is it fondness to take to add all those pieces that Ball needs to be surrounded by?

One of the things I loved about Walker when he was our PG was that even when he couldn’t shoot (which I did not love) he could still pass the ball and crates shots for others and he could still drive and get to the line AND his effort and effectiveness on defence was outstanding - staying in front of his man, stepping in and taking charges etc.

Because he put in so much effort on defence there wasn’t as much pressure on the wings around him.


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That's got nothing to do with him though. Its a team issue. And we've had that team issue for years really...

[LofJ]

Why are we talking about building around LaMelo already? That's way too premature, and I think he can and will become a good defender. We will just have to be patient and see what happens.

[JMAC3]

I don't think the pieces fit around Ball that poorly, we probably need to some reshuffling at some point but I don't think entire roster teardown is likely to happen.

Love his fit with PJ in the pick and roll/pop game- nice to have our two most promising players compliment each other.

Bridges is a topic of discussion all week, but I think having a true elite playmaker to get him easy buckets in transition and cuts to the basket is the best fit he could ask for. He only shot 33% from deep this year, so I would like to see him get that up in the 35-36% this season, which I think is very doable.

Zeller, Carey, Richards are all guys I think Lamelo will play well with because I think all run the floor well for a big. Carey has really good hands around the bucket probably his best feature and he is quick to get ball on rim (opposite of zeller). Richards played the lob catcher role that Kentucky seems to have every single year and I think he will be our best Vertical Spacer and Rim Protector.

Graham, Rozier and Monk are probably not who I would select in a fantasy draft type system to play around Ball, but I think it could be way worse. They all have the tools to be elite shooters, their all three undersized which is their biggest weakness and Ball being 6-7 should make up for that lack of size. Defense for the group is very blah at first glance, but Rozier is actually a really good defender vs other point guards... It is when he is matched up with bigger 2's that he struggles. Melo proving to be able to guard shooting guards would solve a ton of these issues.

[BigSlam]

That's got nothing to do with him though. Its a team issue. And we've had that team issue for years really...

It has everything to do with him though because it’s an issue that’s instantly become significantly more problematic with the addition of him.

Like I said, with Walker it wasn’t as big an issue because of his effort and effectiveness on D - plus he added passing, shooting and the ability to get to the line as well.

Tae also brings effort on D (not as effective as Walker though) but also brings the shooting and the passing.

Ball brings passing - but no shooting and even less D. So it’s much more problematic and requires much more covering up.

IMO we are going to need a SG and SF who are really, really strong defenders who can also shoot and a strong rim defender in order for Ball to really flourish.

Or, all of a sudden Ball to become a reliable shooter who takes good shots as well as a plus defender - which I’m not certain he can do.


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[DY_nasty]

That's got nothing to do with him though. Its a team issue. And we've had that team issue for years really...

It has everything to do with him though because it’s an issue that’s instantly become significantly more problematic with the addition of him.

Like I said, with Walker it wasn’t as big an issue because of his effort and effectiveness on D - plus he added passing, shooting and the ability to get to the line as well.

Tae also brings effort on D (not as effective as Walker though) but also brings the shooting and the passing.

Ball brings passing - but no shooting and even less D. So it’s much more problematic and requires much more covering up.

IMO we are going to need a SG and SF who are really, really strong defenders who can also shoot and a strong rim defender in order for Ball to really flourish.

Or, all of a sudden Ball to become a reliable shooter who takes good shots as well as a plus defender - which I’m not certain he can do.


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I'm not gonna go in circles on this but there isn't a single problem on this team that is created with Ball this year that existed without Ball last year. Or the year before. Or before that. I don't think its fair to frame the problem around Ball's arrival when its an issue that's been huge for years.

We've had these problems before he showed up, and they should've been a priority to fix in the draft and FA. The fact that Mitch is talking about backcourt help when we've got underperformance at the wing and Cody has been doing the best he can despite falling apart for years now means he either knows something we don't, he sees having a fundamentally broken frontcourt is a surefire way to stay in the lottery, or he doesn't see an issue.

I'm sure PJ will get better, but he's never going to be that kind of complete frontcourt/wing solution all by himself.

[MPM]

Of this, I'm 100% certain - based on our draft selections, I will mourn for the lack of Summer League. Would have been a fun team to watch.

[LofJ]

I want to draft a defensive stud next year. Kuminga could be that guy.

[JMAC3]

That's got nothing to do with him though. Its a team issue. And we've had that team issue for years really...

It has everything to do with him though because it’s an issue that’s instantly become significantly more problematic with the addition of him.

Like I said, with Walker it wasn’t as big an issue because of his effort and effectiveness on D - plus he added passing, shooting and the ability to get to the line as well.

Tae also brings effort on D (not as effective as Walker though) but also brings the shooting and the passing.

Ball brings passing - but no shooting and even less D. So it’s much more problematic and requires much more covering up.

IMO we are going to need a SG and SF who are really, really strong defenders who can also shoot and a strong rim defender in order for Ball to really flourish.

Or, all of a sudden Ball to become a reliable shooter who takes good shots as well as a plus defender - which I’m not certain he can do.


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There have been a lot of players who came into the league as really really bad defenders, but overall they were elite basketball players so their instincts and natural gifts make them solid defenders.

Steph Curry, James Harden, Lonzo Ball, CJ McCollum are all guys who teams had really big worries with coming into the league about their defense. And I know including Harden in here will get me ****, but when the game counts I think he is actually a pretty good defender and can make stops. Curry is another guy who is not a good one on one defender, but he plays passing lines and has good instincts on help defense. McCollum is an underrated defender actually. Lonzo went from people worrying about whether he would try to one of the best defensive point guards in the league.

So much of defense is will not skill. Ball has the size, instincts to be a serviceable defender. It will just come down to how much he hates losing to whether he commits on that end of the floor.

[JMAC3]

I don't think what we did in the draft changes our plan/needs in free agency much. Outside of maybe not signing as many players due to us only really having 2 Roster slots available. Hard to say what we will prioritize most, but here are a few guys I still like...

Kris Dunn- elite defender could play with all the guards we have right now. Needs to work on shot.

Jerami Grant- still young, but not sure he would love his role on a rebuilding team. Think he goes to a contender.

Ibaka- Can play both PF and Center. Good Vet in the lockerroom. Would offer him more money, but short deal that is easy to flip.

Etwaun Moore- Good veteran from what I have heard, ultimate professional in terms of working on his game and being a good teammate. Would set a good example for our younger players.

Glen Robinson- We need some thicker wings to guard big wings outside of only Miles.

Lastly, I think we are still rumored to be interested in Gordon Hayward. Only problem is the Celtics are rumored to be delusional and asking for assets back for him (Hawks rumor is they asked for 6 plus Reddish haha) and apparently Hawks asked for Robert Williams as a kicker for taking on his salary. Seems to me Boston and him don't love idea of him opting in, but Hayward also doesn't want to turn down the money.

[BigSlam]

I'm not gonna go in circles on this but there isn't a single problem on this team that is created with Ball this year that existed without Ball last year. Or the year before. Or before that. I don't think its fair to frame the problem around Ball's arrival when its an issue that's been huge for years.

Look at is this way: Rim defence has long been an issue. Cody does a bunch of stuff (sets hard screens, creates space with physicality and boxing out, runs the floor, good FT shooting etc) but rim defence is still an issue.

If we replaced Cody with Willy not only would we not get the good stuff - the hard screens, boxing out and rim running that Cody brings - but our rim defence would be even worse than it is with Cody so the rim defence getting worse would be on Willys inclusion into the line up.

So the problem, rim protection, exists with Cody but it’s made even worse with Willy + we don’t get all the good stuff Cody does bring.

Perimeter defence has been an issue for years but it’s about to get a zillion times worse with Ball now on the roster - and he doesn’t bring extra good stuff like shooting, scoring, good shot selection free throws etc to offset it.

To counter that I think we need to overhaul the roster.


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[amcoolio]

The top 5 picks in the 2021 draft likely would have gone top 5 this year, that's how strong next year's draft is.

I think we give Whiteside a big one year contract as a stopgap and play the young guys a bunch of minutes. Maybe flip Rozier at the deadline if he's playing well.

I think we were gonna offer Bogdanovic a huge contract but it looks like Atlanta is doing that instead

Can you imagine pairing Cade Cunningham with Ball?

[Hornet Mania]

I went to bed before the 2nd round due to the time difference, but I'm really happy with the selections we made. Mitch was doing serious work last night. Carey and Richards both have a chance to be solid bigs in the league.

[DY_nasty]

i dont see a point in dunn or moore. rozier does everything they do but better. ibaka would be interesting but he's gonna ring chase probably. he already did the rebuild help thing before and hated it. i like grant on a good deal but he's gonna get overpaid by someone...

hayward is washed. he looked downright pathetic in the playoffs. it was sad.

if we're gonna suck, may as well not pay a premium for it

I'm not gonna go in circles on this but there isn't a single problem on this team that is created with Ball this year that existed without Ball last year. Or the year before. Or before that. I don't think its fair to frame the problem around Ball's arrival when its an issue that's been huge for years.

Look at is this way: Rim defence has long been an issue. Cody does a bunch of stuff (sets hard screens, creates space with physicality and boxing out, runs the floor, good FT shooting etc) but rim defence is still an issue.

If we replaced Cody with Willy not only would we not get the good stuff - the hard screens, boxing out and rim running that Cody brings - but our rim defence would be even worse than it is with Cody so the rim defence getting worse would be on Willys inclusion into the line up.

So the problem, rim protection, exists with Cody but it’s made even worse with Willy + we don’t get all the good stuff Cody does bring.

Perimeter defence has been an issue for years but it’s about to get a zillion times worse with Ball now on the roster - and he doesn’t bring extra good stuff like shooting, scoring, good shot selection free throws etc to offset it.


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its not just rim protection man

we can't even hedge, double team, or trap effectively anywhere on the court. we did as good as we did last year because our guys are just clutch for no reason, we played slowball, and cody martin has the defensive instincts and hustle of a greek god

lamelo can't be worse monk, graham, or bacon on defense and if he is god help us but i'm pretty sure we're already comfortably at the 'can't guard anyone who scores for a living' threshold. its the fact that our bigs can't move at all and our wings (not named martin) are lost nonstop are a problem.

[BlackOutBuzz]

Read on Twitter

Roster's actually at 14 (not including Bacon) unless Riller takes the other 2-way contract. We may see some trades just to make roster space.

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[James Gatz]

I'm not gonna go in circles on this but there isn't a single problem on this team that is created with Ball this year that existed without Ball last year. Or the year before. Or before that. I don't think its fair to frame the problem around Ball's arrival when its an issue that's been huge for years.

Look at is this way: Rim defence has long been an issue. Cody does a bunch of stuff (sets hard screens, creates space with physicality and boxing out, runs the floor, good FT shooting etc) but rim defence is still an issue.

If we replaced Cody with Willy not only would we not get the good stuff - the hard screens, boxing out and rim running that Cody brings - but our rim defence would be even worse than it is with Cody so the rim defence getting worse would be on Willys inclusion into the line up.

So the problem, rim protection, exists with Cody but it’s made even worse with Willy + we don’t get all the good stuff Cody does bring.

Perimeter defence has been an issue for years but it’s about to get a zillion times worse with Ball now on the roster - and he doesn’t bring extra good stuff like shooting, scoring, good shot selection free throws etc to offset it.

To counter that I think we need to overhaul the roster.


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Wouldn't all of this be true if we drafted Edwards as well? I'd be willing to put money that Ball turns into the better defender of the two.

I also think we should give Ball some time to develop defensively. He's played 12 games with an organized defense and he looked the part. I don't know if he will buy in on D but if he does then someone of his size will certainly be better than Graham or Rozier.

Also I understand the idea that if someone can't defend then you want them to shoot. This is logical but that is the bet on Lamelo. If he shoots at an average rate then he's an all-star level guy. If he shoots average and defends at an average rate then he's a guy you build the team around. I don't know if he'll hit those bench marks but we should let our develop team/him try. We don't want to be good next year.

If we're having this same conversation after year 2 or 3 then it's a much different conversation.

[LofJ]

I hate that Batum is still taking up a roster spot.

[BlackOutBuzz]

FWIW the Kemba/Terry trade can now be updated with a couple more guards from our pick swap.

Celtics took Yam Madar, a likely stash (because they have no roster spots) who jumped on the radar when teams were watching Deni tape.

Of course we took Riller.

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[Soul Rebel]

I think Rodney Hood is a decent signing that shouldn't break the bank, is young enough and helps fill 2 roles. I'm not keen on signing anyone else big for this offseason.

I think what we see is what we've got for now. Adding Hood and letting the youngsters play is just fine. We will be exciting to watch, much like last year. Trade Terry at some point to clear up the clogged backcourt. This allows our youth to mature and grow together, while also keeping us in the hunt for a top-6 pick in next year's draft.

I feel like 2021-22 season was always the year Kupchak envisioned us making our move to relevancy. Lots of cap space, a young core with a few youngsters on the brink of being All-Stars.