NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[Mavrelous]

There is no inherent right to play in the NBA. So you don't want to be vaccinated? Go do something else.

I'd be curious to know what professional leagues and businesses in Europe and the Far East are doing. I know that the Chinese Basketball Association has cancelled games as a result of covid outbreaks, but I do not know if the league requires all players to be vaccinated. I'm guessing that it does.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Mandating a vaccine by state order does interfere with man's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, the state has no right to mandate these things, they especially don't have the right to intefere with existing contractual agreement and add the injection of substances to them.

You forget how affects others people pursuit of happiness of life , liberty ….

See my reply here
viewtopic.php?p=93858938#p93858938

[infinite11285]

There are 100000 medical personnel member that are getting fired because of these mandates

1) Link?
2) Employers imposing mandates as a condition for employment is settled law that’s generations old. Regardless of your take on the vaccine/COVID, employers enforcing mandates is practically unrelated to debates involving the pandemic.

[Curmudgeon]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Mandating a vaccine by state order does interfere with man's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, the state has no right to mandate these things, they especially don't have the right to intefere with existing contractual agreement and add the injection of substances to them.

Don't forget that the author of these words was a slaveholder.

What about the rights of others to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? If I get a serious case of covid from an unvaccinated person, all of these things may be taken away from me. And all because that person wouldn't get an injection that takes 5 seconds.

And BTW the NBA isn't the government. It's a private business. When players can't play because of covid protocols, or games are cancelled, the owners lose money. Unvaccinated players are free to pursue happiness elsewhere.

[Mavrelous]

There are 100000 medical personnel member that are getting fired because of these mandates

1) Link?
2) Employers imposing mandates as a condition for employment is settled law that’s generations old. Regardless of your take on the vaccine/COVID, employers enforcing mandates is nearly unrelated.

Ooops, I confused the number from the NHS with the number from NY, it's not 100K, but here is the video of the governer's statement

Read on Twitter

Regarding your comment, it's NOT the employer that's mandating, it's the state, and WRT the NBA, the existing contract does not demand vaccination, you can't retroactively add that, and even if they wanted to, the union would stop them.

[Cartuse]

There is no inherent right to play in the NBA. So you don't want to be vaccinated? Go do something else.

I'd be curious to know what professional leagues and businesses in Europe and the Far East are doing. I know that the Chinese Basketball Association has cancelled games as a result of covid outbreaks, but I do not know if the league requires all players to be vaccinated. I'm guessing that it does.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Mandating a vaccine by state order does interfere with man's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, the state has no right to mandate these things, they especially don't have the right to intefere with existing contractual agreement and add the injection of substances to them.

You forget how affects others people pursuit of happiness of life , liberty ….

Again, what you say affects other people is not an ACTION but a LACK OF ACTION. Just like years ago they had us convinced that NOT joining the military was affecting the liberty of your fellow countrymen because you were not fighting the necessary fight for their freedom. Thankfully we no longer think that way.

We're not talking about someone in imminent danger, for example someone drowning, and people refusing to help. In that case both parties are aware of the situation and can see it with their own eyes. In this case that "criminal inaction" is entirely thought up by governing bodies, bombarded through their media mouthpieces and embraced by a scared and traumatized populace that just wants things to go back to normal. Same as with wars of old.

[Mavrelous]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Mandating a vaccine by state order does interfere with man's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, the state has no right to mandate these things, they especially don't have the right to intefere with existing contractual agreement and add the injection of substances to them.

Don't forget that the author of these words was a slaveholder.

What about the rights of others to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? If I get a serious case of covid from an unvaccinated person, all of these things may be taken away from me. And all because that person wouldn't get an injection that takes 5 seconds.

And BTW the NBA isn't the government. It's a private business. When players can't play because of covid protocols, or games are cancelled, the owners lose money. Unvaccinated players are free to pursue happiness elsewhere.

The NBA does not mandate the vaccine, cities are mandating it.

[NyKnicks1714]

Medical professionals should be the first one vaxxed . Are you kidding me? You want to run the risk spreading it like wildfire . .

These are the people that we were told are heroes, and we should salute at the start of the pandemic, now we want to mandate vaccinating them against their will or lose their emplyment?
Did you stop to think why does a nurse that have seen COVID effects firsthand and the vaccine effects firsthand choose to not get the vaccine?

You're the one who needs to stop and think about that. It's tough to come up with a better testament to the poorly informed and nonsensical nature of the vaccine 'refuser' thought process.

[Mauro Pedrosa]

How long do you think the studies of the over the counter medications or supplements you all take lasted? Just curious. Guarantee your taking something right now that is less studied and has more risks of side effects than the vaccines.

Two wrongs don't make one right. Yes, we're also eating all sorts of processed foods with ingredients that might be very bad for our health. That doesn't mean we should just stop caring and start injecting anything into our bodies just because.

If one honestly wants to understand the skepticism, and not just reinforce the idea that skeptics are idiots, then one must understand the lack of caution that the governments and health agencies are displaying in their communications and (now coercive) measures. You have a virus which is not entirely clear if it's natural or man made, so that is the first pause. Anyone who claims to know it's definitely natural or man made is wrong. We just don't know one way or the other.

Then you have several rushed vaccines which skipped or sped over ordinary protocols, made by companies that were given complete freedom from liability should anything go wrong. That should give us the second pause. One can think that's the only way to get the vaccines fast enough, but then we should ask ourselves what does that imply. And that implies that if the pharmaceutical companies financial wellbeing were at stake, they would take way more precautions to make sure they won't be facing massive repercussions. Well I just don't see how their financial wellbeing merits more precautions than the entire world's population wellbeing. The same precautions should be taken in both cases. If companies can't risk bankruptcy, then we can't transfer that risk into people's health.

Then there's what's happening with the alternative medications. From the start the media has ridiculed all alternative treatments that have been suggested, sometimes outright lying and willfully misinforming, like with the case of Ivermectin, by saying it's only a horse dewormer and not fit for human consumption. That's not only false, but it's also ignoring to report all the cases in which Ivermectin was succesfully used to treat covid, like in India and Argentina. We can discuss the specifics of the science and such, but there's no denying that the media, government and health agencies acted in bad faith. That right there is a massive third pause.

Now think about all those factors keeping in mind that kids as young as 12 are targeted for vaccination, and that efforts are being made for the public to accept an even lower age. Reading this forum you can see some posters believe the next step if all else fails is mass vaccination of kids.

Beariing all this in mind, go and see how HARD governments (of law and thought) are oushing for the people to get vaccinated. It's no longer presented as a choice, but as a threat. If you don't get vaccinated you won't be able to work, simple as that. Try living in a society while not having a job. Just a hint, Covid will be the least of your problems...

If you take all this things into account and really think them through, analyze their implications and what it means, and you still think skeptic people are just plain dumb, then I really don't know what to say. We can discuss science and details ad nauseam, but the truth is that 99.99% of people are not remotely qualified to asses the information they're given and we have no choice but to trust "experts". The problem is we see "experts" from different agencies outright lie (like with Ivermectin) or get things wrong over and over while the narrative keeps changing to adapt to whatever the government's next step is. And on top of that, the "experts" that don't agree with the official narrative (which exist, and are also qualified in their fields) get marginalized and ridiculed.

If all this isn't enough for a person to become suspicious or at least exercise caution, then I don't know what is. Narratives keep changing (we needed 75% vaccinated, now that we're at or close to that number we need everyone it seems), people keep being divided and blamed for all the problems (the unvaxxed are already preemptively labelled as the cause for the new episodes that are yet to happen).

I'm not advocating for anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I'm not telling no one how to live their lives and how to behave with others. There's no "correct thinking" that I'm advocating for people to endorse. I'm just defending everyone's right to think for themselves and to decide for themselves. This is not about people taking a certain action that's affecting others, no matter which way you spin it. This is about people RESUMING their normal existance, which equates to INACTION.

If someone decides my inaction is dangerous to society, then it's up to society to exclude me or eliminate me. If that's what the majority of society wants then so be it. We will have to either re-write our most fundamental laws or decide to ignore them all together. Either way we'll be opening the door to something quite unsavory.

All I'm asking is for everyone to understand where the skepticism comes from to see if we can all understand each other and avoid coming to segregation or direct confrontation, which, alas, benefits no one but those in power.

Amazing post, Cartuse.

[xdrta+]

There are 100000 medical personnel member that are getting fired because of these mandates

1) Link?
2) Employers imposing mandates as a condition for employment is settled law that’s generations old. Regardless of your take on the vaccine/COVID, employers enforcing mandates is nearly unrelated.

Ooops, I confused the number from the NHS with the number from NY, it's not 100K, but here is the video of the governer's statement

Read on Twitter

Regarding your comment, it's the employer that's mandating, it's the state, and WRT the NBA, the existing contract does not demand vaccination, you can't retroactively add that, and even if they wanted to, the union would stop them.

Regarding existing contracts, these contract do require that players follow the law. The laws in San Francisco and NYC require vaccinations in order to enter covered buildings (arenas). The NBA cannot say, "just ignore the law." Players have to follow the law, if they don't, they won't be paid because they're not doing their job. This is normal, if you don't do your job, you don't get paid. Why would anyone argue about this?

[Sedale Threatt]

There is no inherent right to play in the NBA. So you don't want to be vaccinated? Go do something else.

I'd be curious to know what professional leagues and businesses in Europe and the Far East are doing. I know that the Chinese Basketball Association has cancelled games as a result of covid outbreaks, but I do not know if the league requires all players to be vaccinated. I'm guessing that it does.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Mandating a vaccine by state order does interfere with man's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, the state has no right to mandate these things, they especially don't have the right to intefere with existing contractual agreement and add the injection of substances to them.

On the contrary, the Supreme Court ruled all the way back in 1905 that vaccine mandates are, in fact, constitutional.

"In every well-ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand ... [r]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own [liberty], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others." -- Jacobson v. Massachusetts

Translation: "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" does not mean "I get to do whatever the hell I want, all the time." The social contract comes with a cost, and that includes vaccine mandates protected by well-established legal precedent for more than 100 years. If you attended public school or served in the military, you've already experienced them.

[infinite11285]

There are 100000 medical personnel member that are getting fired because of these mandates

1) Link?
2) Employers imposing mandates as a condition for employment is settled law that’s generations old. Regardless of your take on the vaccine/COVID, employers enforcing mandates is nearly unrelated.

Ooops, I confused the number from the NHS with the number from NY, it's not 100K, but here is the video of the governer's statement

Read on Twitter

Regarding your comment, it's the employer that's mandating, it's the state, and WRT the NBA, the existing contract does not demand vaccination, you can't retroactively add that, and even if they wanted to, the union would stop them.

Wait, your jumping around a bit.

Medical institutions enforcing state mandates, again, is settled law. Hospital personnel losing their jobs for refusal to comply with conditions of employment is unrelated to what’s happening in the NBA. It’s important not to blend the two distinct situations.

Now in regard to the NBA, nothing is being mandated by the league. Unfortunately, Silver abdicated leadership and left it in the hands of state/local authorities, and in that case, the state takes precedent.

This isn’t a matter of fair/unfair, and you’re making absolute statements that may confuse some folks.

(No offense to you—it’s all good—I just wanted to be clear)

[Mavrelous]

Medical professionals should be the first one vaxxed . Are you kidding me? You want to run the risk spreading it like wildfire . .

These are the people that we were told are heroes, and we should salute at the start of the pandemic, now we want to mandate vaccinating them against their will or lose their emplyment?
Did you stop to think why does a nurse that have seen COVID effects firsthand and the vaccine effects firsthand choose to not get the vaccine?

You're the one who needs to stop and think about that. It's tough to come up with a better testament to the poorly informed and nonsensical nature of the vaccine 'refuser' thought process.

Your close minded approach to other people's personal choice is not an excuse to mandate your approach on them.

[Curmudgeon]

The NBA does not mandate the vaccine, cities are mandating it.

But the NBA should.

If you want to drive a car in the U.S, the government mandates that you drive on the right side of the road. If you drive on the left you endanger yourself and others. Individual freedom is fine when it only involves yourself. When the exercise of that freedom endangers others, the government has the right to forbid or regulate that behavior.

[Mavrelous]

Wait, your jumping around a bit.

Medical institutions enforcing state mandates, again, is settled law. Hospital personnel losing their jobs for refusal to comply with conditions of employment is unrelated to what’s happening in the NBA. It’s important not to blend the two distinct situations.

Now in regard to the NBA, nothing is being mandated by the league. Unfortunately, Silver abdicated leadership and left it in the hands of state/local authorities, and in that case, the state takes precedent.

This isn’t a matter of fair/unfair, and you’re making absolute statements that may confuse some folks.

(No offense to you—it’s all good—I just wanted to be clear)

I know, I have an issue with employers mandating the vaccine, we do have protections for workers and medical privacy was one of them, but all of that went out of the window now, but my point was about city and state mandates, that's why these people are getting fired and why we have the problem with few NBA players.
"It's the law" is not an argument, unjust and unconstitutional laws are to be abolished not respected.

[NyKnicks1714]

Then there's what's happening with the alternative medications. From the start the media has ridiculed all alternative treatments that have been suggested, sometimes outright lying and willfully misinforming, like with the case of Ivermectin, by saying it's only a horse dewormer and not fit for human consumption. That's not only false, but it's also ignoring to report all the cases in which Ivermectin was succesfully used to treat covid, like in India and Argentina. We can discuss the specifics of the science and such, but there's no denying that the media, government and health agencies acted in bad faith. That right there is a massive third pause.

You're in here spewing anti-vax rhetoric while defending the use of Ivermectin, which at best has nowhere close to the body of evidence for its effectiveness in combating Covid (via treatment or prevention) as the vaccine does, and at worst does nothing. And when doctors refuse to prescribe it, people have turned and continue to turn to the formulation that is indeed not intended for human consumption. I hope you're A) not actually defending the people who have done that and B) not suggesting that the formulation intended for horses is indeed suitable for humans.

[NyKnicks1714]

Wait, your jumping around a bit.

Medical institutions enforcing state mandates, again, is settled law. Hospital personnel losing their jobs for refusal to comply with conditions of employment is unrelated to what’s happening in the NBA. It’s important not to blend the two distinct situations.

Now in regard to the NBA, nothing is being mandated by the league. Unfortunately, Silver abdicated leadership and left it in the hands of state/local authorities, and in that case, the state takes precedent.

This isn’t a matter of fair/unfair, and you’re making absolute statements that may confuse some folks.

(No offense to you—it’s all good—I just wanted to be clear)

I know, I have an issue with employers mandating the vaccine, we do have protections for workers and medical privacy was one of them, but all of that went out of the window now, but my point was about city and state mandates, that's why these people are getting fired and why we have the problem with few NBA players.
"It's the law" is not an argument, unjust and unconstitutional laws are to be abolished not respected.

Have you ever had an issue with employers and institutions mandating vaccines before 2021, because it's happened a lot. If so, which vaccines?

[xdrta+]

Wait, your jumping around a bit.

Medical institutions enforcing state mandates, again, is settled law. Hospital personnel losing their jobs for refusal to comply with conditions of employment is unrelated to what’s happening in the NBA. It’s important not to to blend the the two distinct situations.

Now in regard to the NBA, nothing is being mandated by the league. Unfortunately, Silver abdicated leadership and left it in the hands of state/local authorities, and in that case, the state takes precedent.

I know, I have an issue with employers mandating the vaccine, we do have protections for workers and medical privacy was one of them, but all of that went out of the window now, but my point was about city and state mandates, that's why these people are getting fired and why we have the problem with few NBA players.
"It's the law" is not an argument, unjust and unconstitutional laws are to be abolished not respected.

Of course it's an argument, and your view of what are unjust and unconstitutional laws does not mean you can just ignore them. At least not without consequences. You can work to change laws but you can't just ignore them.

[Cartuse]

Medical professionals should be the first one vaxxed . Are you kidding me? You want to run the risk spreading it like wildfire . .

These are the people that we were told are heroes, and we should salute at the start of the pandemic, now we want to mandate vaccinating them against their will or lose their emplyment?
Did you stop to think why does a nurse that have seen COVID effects firsthand and the vaccine effects firsthand choose to not get the vaccine?

You're the one who needs to stop and think about that. It's tough to come up with a better testament to the poorly informed and nonsensical nature of the vaccine 'refuser' thought process.

But you're not being objective at all. You part from the premise that anyone who is vaccine hesitant is wrong, and proceed to explain everything based on that presupposition. You're turning things around

If we're supposed to trust the "experts", then nurses that have been on the frontlines of the Covid pandemic treating hundreds of patients and seeing and hearing about thousands of cases should definitely count as experts. If nurses are vaccine hesitant, then it merits to at least stop and try to see why. It doesn't mean we're being microchipped or sterilized. It doesn't mean they're necessarily right. But it does mean we should dig into what they're saying, and at least find out what their reasoning is.

If we don't do that and just assume they're all stupid and easily manipulated by disinfo even though they've had covid right in front of them for longer than anyone else then we're just being emotionally, and not rationally, driven.

These are scary times and I understand that the stakes are high and people hold on to anything that allows them to think they know what's going on. I really do. But please don't let that fear turn you against your own neighbors

[NyKnicks1714]

These are the people that we were told are heroes, and we should salute at the start of the pandemic, now we want to mandate vaccinating them against their will or lose their emplyment?
Did you stop to think why does a nurse that have seen COVID effects firsthand and the vaccine effects firsthand choose to not get the vaccine?

You're the one who needs to stop and think about that. It's tough to come up with a better testament to the poorly informed and nonsensical nature of the vaccine 'refuser' thought process.

But you're not being objective at all. You part from the premise that anyone who is vaccine hesitant is wrong, and proceed to explain everything based on that presupposition. You're turning things around

If we're supposed to trust the "experts", then nurses that have been on the frontlines of the Covid pandemic treating hundreds of patients and seeing and hearing about thousands of cases should definitely count as experts. If nurses are vaccine hesitant, then it merits to at least stop and try to see why. Dig into what they're saying, and what their reasoning is.

I have all the respect in the world for nurses. They work as hard as anybody, their work is important, and they don't get much appreciation for it. That said, they're not infectious disease experts whatsoever.

[Mavrelous]

Of course it's an argument, and your view of what are unjust and unconstitutional laws does not mean you can just ignore them. At least not without consequences. You can work to change laws but you can't just ignore them.

Google "Civil disobedience" by Henry David Thorough