Did the Hawks actually win the Cam Reddish trade?

[Prospect Dong]

No one knew Cam had went to our Gm after last season and demanded a trade. No one. So ofc Hawks fans were shrugging off trade rumors because they were coming out of nowhere. And yes, Cam's play was up and down but once it got out he was demanding a trade AND playing for himself on the 2nd unit it made his bizarre hero ball this season make sense. He played great for us at times and looked like a star in the making. Hell he still could BE a star as I said earlier in this very thread that he needs usage and minutes.

So it isn't a "that player was never good". He was up and down. But he was playing selfish hero ball on offense and not playing defense to I presume reduce risk of injury to make sure he could get traded. That makes it more than palatable to trade him.

I don't think you can get from "the only way we would trade him is as the centerpiece for a better-than-Ben-Simmons star" to "thank god we got a draft pick in the 20s for him, what steal!" via "once I accepted that he had asked for a trade - something I had previously denied - I realized his play was up and down"; even if there were some evidence that you began holding that position prior to the trade.

If you loved him in a hawks uniform and, a month later, hate him in a knicks uniform then you just aren't offering viable player analysis. It's easy to get better, but it doesn't sound like you really want to...

I never said I loved him in a Hawks uniform or hated him in a Knicks uniform. What laughable nonsense. I wished him well in his career except when he played against the Hawks. No one knew he asked for a trade until after he was traded and our GM revealed it. I've had sources for almost twenty years in the Hawks and their arena. They had no idea he had requested a trade either and it only came out to me in private conversation the early morning before the trade was announced. I was stunned we were giving him up for so little and that is when I was told about all the other things I mentioned.

He was an up and down player for us that when healthy showed flashes of being a true star. Sadly, he went into business for himself and that only became clear once the details were revealed after the trade. I wish him well but as I have said before I think the best place for Cam is on a rebuilding team so he can have high usage and plenty of minutes. He had no chance of that in Atlanta or frankly in NYK as well.

I think if people without inside sources both correctly predicted that a trade would happen and more accurately assessed Cam's value, your sources may not actually be making you more informed. Or perhaps you're starting at a huge analytical disadvantage and your sources aren't enough to close that gap.

Either way, "I didn't realize he was so playing badly on the court in the actual NBA games I watch until someone told me after the trade and that was when I went from valuing him as the centerpiece for a superstar to being ecstatic we got a late first or maybe some seconds for him" is some serious stockholm syndrome stuff, and I can't believe you're still out here bigtiming yourself rather than take the L on this one.

[Prospect Dong]

Why do you think he's a bad coach?

He has one of the best winning percentages as a head coach in NBA history. He's taking two different teams, that NEVER make the playoffs and have been historically bad, to the playoffs twice! The Bulls were amazing when he was their coach and immediately plummeted in the standings once they dismissed him.

This is gonna be the Knicks second best record in the last 9 seasons. Last year was the first. Noone thought we'd sniff the playoffs last year but we made the 4th seed based on gritty play, tough defense, and TEAMWORK.

Maybe I'm just used to mediocre play at this point, but Thibs is the best coach we've had since Jeff Van Gundy (Thibs was his assistant).

Say something original. The Thibs is a bad coach thing has been stale for a while. If winning is bad then I don't want to be good.

I think Thibs is a bit like the new version of Skiles. Great defensive coach, great short-term culture setter, but can't adapt his approach to fit the talent available and usually doesn't manage to develop young players, especially if they're offensively minded. That means you need a GM who can cater to his needs and usually puts an expiration date on his (successful) tenure - and I think the league's gradually catching up with his schemes, so you won't see a run like you did with Chicago again...

The develop young players this is BS and always has been. Derrick Rose was the youngest MVP to ever win the award with Thibs as his coach. Jimmy Butler became a star under Thibs after looking like a JAG prior to that. Luol Deng made his only two All-Star games with Thibs as his coach. Taj and Noah were youngters that Thibs loved and trusted. RJ looked awful his first year and has made massive improvements the last year and this year as a player. Quickley and Obi were rookies and in his 9 man rotation last year. He benched Kemba Walker for Grimes earlier this year. This is quite a large sample size to prove this theory of "Thibs doesn't like young guys" wrong.

The guy has been willing to play young guys, they just need to play hard, play defense, and not be selfish. Simple as that.

Thinking about this, and I think Wiggins is probably the guy I'd point to if I wanted to argue Thibs elevates the guys he coaches, but can't really shape them and doesn't really seem willing to try. That's a still-young former #1 pick who, we now know, had the potential to be a great defender and nice complementary scorer, if you could reach him. And Thibs, along with his other coaches, to be fair, couldn't. I think that's something you need to recon with if you want to say he's a great developmental coach. But I'm open to the idea that can be a good one, if he's given the right youngsters.

But I don't think claiming "he took young Luol Deng under his wing" or "he gave our 22 year old lottery pick eleven minutes per game" as success stories is the right way to start that discussion, at least anywhere other than the Knicks board.

[cgf]

I think Thibs is a bit like the new version of Skiles. Great defensive coach, great short-term culture setter, but can't adapt his approach to fit the talent available and usually doesn't manage to develop young players, especially if they're offensively minded. That means you need a GM who can cater to his needs and usually puts an expiration date on his (successful) tenure - and I think the league's gradually catching up with his schemes, so you won't see a run like you did with Chicago again...

The develop young players this is BS and always has been. Derrick Rose was the youngest MVP to ever win the award with Thibs as his coach. Jimmy Butler became a star under Thibs after looking like a JAG prior to that. Luol Deng made his only two All-Star games with Thibs as his coach. Taj and Noah were youngters that Thibs loved and trusted. RJ looked awful his first year and has made massive improvements the last year and this year as a player. Quickley and Obi were rookies and in his 9 man rotation last year. He benched Kemba Walker for Grimes earlier this year. This is quite a large sample size to prove this theory of "Thibs doesn't like young guys" wrong.

The guy has been willing to play young guys, they just need to play hard, play defense, and not be selfish. Simple as that.

Thinking about this, and I think Wiggins is probably the guy I'd point to if I wanted to argue Thibs elevates the guys he coaches, but can't really shape them and doesn't really seem willing to try. That's a still-young former #1 pick who, we now know, had the potential to be a great defender and nice complementary scorer, if you could reach him. And Thibs, along with his other coaches, to be fair, couldn't. I think that's something you need to recon with if you want to say he's a great developmental coach. But I'm open to the idea that can be a good one, if he's given the right youngsters.

But I don't think claiming "he took young Luol Deng under his wing" or "he gave our 22 year old lottery pick eleven minutes per game" as success stories is the right way to start that discussion, at least anywhere other than the Knicks board.

*a raw 22yo lottery pick

If you're going to argue that Obi was ready for more PT last season or that he's hasn't come a long way since then, then we must look for very different things when watching him

[Chanel Bomber]

Addition by subtraction for the Hawks.

The Knicks get yet another inefficient player to add to their core of inefficient players and solidify the treadmill.

The Hawks won this trade because they got rid of Cam's minutes and they got an asset in return for him.

[Appostis]

Kinda lose lose.

[Scalabrine]

I think Thibs is a bit like the new version of Skiles. Great defensive coach, great short-term culture setter, but can't adapt his approach to fit the talent available and usually doesn't manage to develop young players, especially if they're offensively minded. That means you need a GM who can cater to his needs and usually puts an expiration date on his (successful) tenure - and I think the league's gradually catching up with his schemes, so you won't see a run like you did with Chicago again...

The develop young players this is BS and always has been. Derrick Rose was the youngest MVP to ever win the award with Thibs as his coach. Jimmy Butler became a star under Thibs after looking like a JAG prior to that. Luol Deng made his only two All-Star games with Thibs as his coach. Taj and Noah were youngters that Thibs loved and trusted. RJ looked awful his first year and has made massive improvements the last year and this year as a player. Quickley and Obi were rookies and in his 9 man rotation last year. He benched Kemba Walker for Grimes earlier this year. This is quite a large sample size to prove this theory of "Thibs doesn't like young guys" wrong.

The guy has been willing to play young guys, they just need to play hard, play defense, and not be selfish. Simple as that.

Luol Deng was drafted in 2004. Thibs joined the Bulls in 2010. I think if Deng makes your list of "young guys who Thibs let play through their mistakes while developing" you may just be trying to backfill to reach your conclusion.

I think the relevant list for Deng, Noah and Rose is "guys who played a lot, like really a lot, of minutes under Thibs and then mysteriously declined a lot earlier than is normal" rather than guys who became great under Thibs. And I think that's something you need to be aware of when assessing him, and something that's going to tend to reduce his ability to build up young players who aren't quite as good as his vets.

I think it's perfectly fair to call Butler a guy who Thibs developed into a star, and Quickley maybe deserves some recognition too. I think he'd be fine taking guys in Butler's general mold, which I think is what you're saying. But sometimes you don't get handed guys like Jimmy Butler, and I don't think Thibs has proved he's got the flexibility to develop stars who don't fit his idea of "great".

It's not a mystery why those guys declined. Do a little research. Rose had 3 separate knee surgeries and many complications upon coming back from each one. He's still playing. Noah had serious shoulder, knee, and plantar issues that required several surgeries and was in the league until he was 34, which is pretty good for a big man, especially one with his play style. Deng was definitely an odd case. He was pretty solid until his age 31 season and once he signed with the Lakers he fell off a cliff. I don't remember if he had injuries or not, but you can have that one. Gibson is still playing and was the starting center for the Knicks in the playoffs last season.

[HMFFL]

Recouping anything for him is a win. I didn't watch Cam in high school, but in a year at Duke, and 3 years into the NBA, he's never actually been good at basketball. We're waiting for it to show itself for the first time ever.

Exactly it. His mindset just doesn't seem to be there for success. It was a problem in college and is now apparent in the NBA.

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[bbalnation]

Recouping anything for him is a win. I didn't watch Cam in high school, but in a year at Duke, and 3 years into the NBA, he's never actually been good at basketball. We're waiting for it to show itself for the first time ever.

Exactly it. His mindset just doesn't seem to be there for success. It was a problem in college and is now apparent in the NBA.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

I didn't watch him in college. I've seen him in bursts in the season, and in the playoffs where he elevated his play (something that i dont see too commonly).

Can either of you share something factual or substantial seen in college relative to his 18 & 19 year old peers (at that point and in general) that would suggest that there was a *problem* with his mindset in college?

He seemed okay at basketball to me.

https://goduke.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/cam-reddish/4449

[Sothron]

I don't think you can get from "the only way we would trade him is as the centerpiece for a better-than-Ben-Simmons star" to "thank god we got a draft pick in the 20s for him, what steal!" via "once I accepted that he had asked for a trade - something I had previously denied - I realized his play was up and down"; even if there were some evidence that you began holding that position prior to the trade.

If you loved him in a hawks uniform and, a month later, hate him in a knicks uniform then you just aren't offering viable player analysis. It's easy to get better, but it doesn't sound like you really want to...

I never said I loved him in a Hawks uniform or hated him in a Knicks uniform. What laughable nonsense. I wished him well in his career except when he played against the Hawks. No one knew he asked for a trade until after he was traded and our GM revealed it. I've had sources for almost twenty years in the Hawks and their arena. They had no idea he had requested a trade either and it only came out to me in private conversation the early morning before the trade was announced. I was stunned we were giving him up for so little and that is when I was told about all the other things I mentioned.

He was an up and down player for us that when healthy showed flashes of being a true star. Sadly, he went into business for himself and that only became clear once the details were revealed after the trade. I wish him well but as I have said before I think the best place for Cam is on a rebuilding team so he can have high usage and plenty of minutes. He had no chance of that in Atlanta or frankly in NYK as well.

I think if people without inside sources both correctly predicted that a trade would happen and more accurately assessed Cam's value, your sources may not actually be making you more informed. Or perhaps you're starting at a huge analytical disadvantage and your sources aren't enough to close that gap.

Either way, "I didn't realize he was so playing badly on the court in the actual NBA games I watch until someone told me after the trade and that was when I went from valuing him as the centerpiece for a superstar to being ecstatic we got a late first or maybe some seconds for him" is some serious stockholm syndrome stuff, and I can't believe you're still out here bigtiming yourself rather than take the L on this one.

More troll nonsense posting. I was criticizing Cam during those games. I do most of my posting on the Hawksquawk the best Atlanta Hawks site in the world. I don't rehash all of my posts from there over here on the realgm GB. It was obvious that Cam was playing hero ball on our 2nd unit and I called him out on it. What I didn't know was the background going on that Cam was trying to show other teams he could be a valid #1 or #2 on offense. I simply assumed he was trying to do too much which most young players are guilty of doing.

I never said I saw him as the centerpiece for a superstar trade nor am I ecstatic we traded him. You are ascribing emotions, intent or words that simply were never there. Hence why this is just bad troll posting. I said for two seasons my ideal starting lineup had Cam as the SG. I thought and still think he needed more usage and minutes to fully develop. He never got that in Atlanta and he will not get that either in NYK. I said in the very post you are quoting that I was shocked when they were going to trade him for so little.

I also can't deny the reality of what the Hawks have looked like since he has been traded. Our 2nd unit went from a negative to a positive immediately. Clearing out Cam's minutes/role in the rotation has solidified the minutes and roles for other players in the rotation. You have ball movement in the 2nd unit and not hero ball clogging up the offense. You have more defense being played because Cam's defense this season was him gambling for steals or not closing out on shooters/not fighting over screens. That's reality. I might like Cam a lot but I'm not going to engage in cognitive dissonance because what I thought would happen is being contradicted in clear and unequivocal terms in reality.

The Hawks are a better team without Cam this season than they were with him. The fact he proved to be addition by subtraction which is exactly what my source said to me it would mean is just that: a fact. Toss in the first rounder we got out of NYK by moving him and yes, you see why I am glad he is not with the Hawks any more. There is no stockholm syndrome.

[Clyde Frazier]

Have to see if the Knicks move anyone on Thursday to free up playing time for cam. Knox was a sunk cost and that hornets first was pretty protected. Knicks FO could see cam as an asset for a future deal. That report was also by Marc Berman which could be total BS.

Edit - cam played 15 minutes with Grimes missing the game last night so he isn't in the doghouse or something.

[NO-KG-AI]

Recouping anything for him is a win. I didn't watch Cam in high school, but in a year at Duke, and 3 years into the NBA, he's never actually been good at basketball. We're waiting for it to show itself for the first time ever.

Exactly it. His mindset just doesn't seem to be there for success. It was a problem in college and is now apparent in the NBA.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

I didn't watch him in college. I've seen him in bursts in the season, and in the playoffs where he elevated his play (something that i dont see too commonly).

Can either of you share something factual or substantial seen in college relative to his 18 & 19 year old peers (at that point and in general) that would suggest that there was a *problem* with his mindset in college?

He seemed okay at basketball to me.

https://goduke.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/cam-reddish/4449

I didn't say his mindset in college was a problem, I said he sucked at basketball.

He was the third best player behind a top college player (Barrett), and behind the most dominant player in college basketball (Zion), and he was shooting 35%(33% from 3) from the field in 30 minutes per game, with a negative assist to turnover ratio. He was a putrid scorer, and it transferred seamlessly to being a bad scorer in the NBA.

He's found short bursts where he can hit the 3 ball at a decent clip, but he hasn't shot over 40% from the field in a season since high school (presumably, I don't know his hs numbers lol), and even his 3 point shooting is at a career 32.6% over 3 years, with a peak of 36.9%. And he's still rocking that negative assist to turnover ratio, despite being asked to do the absolute bare minimum of just take open shots.

He's just not very good, and if he ever was, it was over 4 years ago against high school kids.

People are fooled because he's a fluid athlete, and has nice shooting form, but even his 3 is inconsistent and comes and goes, despite no pressure from defenses. And he's absolutely putrid in all facets inside the arc.

[cgf]

Have to see if the Knicks move anyone on Thursday to free up playing time for cam. Knox was a sunk cost and that hornets first was pretty protected. Knicks FO could see cam as an asset for a future deal. That report was also by Marc Berman which could be total BS.

Edit - cam played 15 minutes with Grimes missing the game last night so he isn't in the doghouse or something.

Yeah, Cam coming in the moment Grimes missed a game only makes me more confident that this was just another example of Berman stirring the pot and seeing if something sticks...especially with Thibs giving Reddish a lot of run with his buddy RJ to try and get him comfortable/acclimated.

Berman really is just the worst kind of muckraker.

[Prospect Dong]

I never said I loved him in a Hawks uniform or hated him in a Knicks uniform. What laughable nonsense. I wished him well in his career except when he played against the Hawks. No one knew he asked for a trade until after he was traded and our GM revealed it. I've had sources for almost twenty years in the Hawks and their arena. They had no idea he had requested a trade either and it only came out to me in private conversation the early morning before the trade was announced. I was stunned we were giving him up for so little and that is when I was told about all the other things I mentioned.

He was an up and down player for us that when healthy showed flashes of being a true star. Sadly, he went into business for himself and that only became clear once the details were revealed after the trade. I wish him well but as I have said before I think the best place for Cam is on a rebuilding team so he can have high usage and plenty of minutes. He had no chance of that in Atlanta or frankly in NYK as well.

I think if people without inside sources both correctly predicted that a trade would happen and more accurately assessed Cam's value, your sources may not actually be making you more informed. Or perhaps you're starting at a huge analytical disadvantage and your sources aren't enough to close that gap.

Either way, "I didn't realize he was so playing badly on the court in the actual NBA games I watch until someone told me after the trade and that was when I went from valuing him as the centerpiece for a superstar to being ecstatic we got a late first or maybe some seconds for him" is some serious stockholm syndrome stuff, and I can't believe you're still out here bigtiming yourself rather than take the L on this one.

...I never said I saw him as the centerpiece for a superstar trade nor am I ecstatic we traded him

Buddy, this is what it sounds like when you see a guy as someone who will bring you back a star (not a superstar, fair enough, but a better player than Ben Simmons, for example):

The only way they would trade him would be to get a star player in return.

I would not trade him. I think it is possible the Hawks do a consolidation trade using Cam as the best young player in a deal to get a star.

And this is what it looks like when you are ecstatic you traded a guy for a late first or perhaps some seconds.

The Hawks definitely won the trade. We got rid of a guy that wanted to be traded and was playing hero iso ball on the 2nd unit and wouldn't play any defense. Our team is much better without him plus we get a first round pick in the process.

No amount of "my secret contact later told me he was secretly playing hero ball during televised NBA games, which no one else could have known about" squares those two valuations, made a few weeks apart. One of them is wrong, for non-secret reasons, as demonstrated by the fact that most people knew the "only trade Cam for a star" one was wrong without access to any secrets.

Maybe next time you see your contact you should tell him what random people on the internet are saying about Hawks players, since that process seems to lead to more accurate valuations...

[heatwillbeback]

Thibs just doesn’t like playing young guys. He wouldn’t of liked do play who they take with the pick next year either.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

I thought they won it to begin with. Never understood why Reddish was viewed so highly by some.

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Could be because of all the crying from Hawks fans over the years about Reddish being injured, we just assumed he was a quality player if they were missing him so much lol

[DreamTeam09]

lol ppl love anyone with a little bit of a hops n 3pt shot, until they realize that you have to put it all together in order to become a good player

[dakomish23]

I liked it b/c I thought it meant they realized bringing in all these bum ass vets was pointless.

He’s so raw but the rare things I see from him liked even if they were misses. He just really needs some PT, a little bit of leash but not too much, and good coaching. Might still end up a bust

Time will tell.

[dakomish23]

I love that Hawks fans said they won the Luka - Young trade because of Cam, and now they say he was **** the whole time

I know I didn’t pretend Knox was great

[Sothron]

I think if people without inside sources both correctly predicted that a trade would happen and more accurately assessed Cam's value, your sources may not actually be making you more informed. Or perhaps you're starting at a huge analytical disadvantage and your sources aren't enough to close that gap.

Either way, "I didn't realize he was so playing badly on the court in the actual NBA games I watch until someone told me after the trade and that was when I went from valuing him as the centerpiece for a superstar to being ecstatic we got a late first or maybe some seconds for him" is some serious stockholm syndrome stuff, and I can't believe you're still out here bigtiming yourself rather than take the L on this one.

...I never said I saw him as the centerpiece for a superstar trade nor am I ecstatic we traded him

Buddy, this is what it sounds like when you see a guy as someone who will bring you back a star (not a superstar, fair enough, but a better player than Ben Simmons, for example):

The only way they would trade him would be to get a star player in return.

I would not trade him. I think it is possible the Hawks do a consolidation trade using Cam as the best young player in a deal to get a star.

And this is what it looks like when you are ecstatic you traded a guy for a late first or perhaps some seconds.

The Hawks definitely won the trade. We got rid of a guy that wanted to be traded and was playing hero iso ball on the 2nd unit and wouldn't play any defense. Our team is much better without him plus we get a first round pick in the process.

No amount of "my secret contact later told me he was secretly playing hero ball during televised NBA games, which no one else could have known about" squares those two valuations, made a few weeks apart. One of them is wrong, for non-secret reasons, as demonstrated by the fact that most people knew the "only trade Cam for a star" one was wrong without access to any secrets.

Maybe next time you see your contact you should tell him what random people on the internet are saying about Hawks players, since that process seems to lead to more accurate valuations...

Another troll post from a guy with a bad penis joke name for a user name. Try harder. You failed to address any of my points and yet continue to post more lies about how I thought the Hawks could get superstar after superstar for Cam Reddish. Or, my bad, star after star since now you want to move goal posts in your trolling.

I have explained my posts more than once. If you, random penis joke avatar name troll, have a problem with that then I will have to live with that pain for the rest of my natural days. Oh, the agony!