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Welcome back GP2!!

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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#81 » by Big J » Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:57 pm

Onus wrote:
Sleepy51 wrote:and ... Point of Attack defender is not going to solely mean PG's. There are guys who are going to have the ball in their hands in the playoffs who will simply be too big for Payton to match up on effectively. JK gives us a different look, but still can dog a top tier lead scorer ... at any position.

Yea and that's the difference between GP and OG. There's really no wing too big for him. I think he's the top wing defender outside of Wigs. Having both on the team with Dray behind them, I'd love our chances to defend anyone. They're all special on ball and great off the ball.

Sleepy51 wrote:Good talk though ... not mad at the difference of opinion. You could be right. I hope not, because it would be fun to watch this team compete credibly in the playoffs. My underlying skepticism of our fundamental contention prospects (within the core) this season is enough for me. I don't need to be targeting our marginal players to second guess on top of that. Hope is fun. I'll dance with the girls we brought and like it.


Maybe we don't need og, I still think we can win as constructed. I just think OG gives us a better chance to win. And I'm ok with sacrificing the future to give us the best chance to win at the tail end of Curry's prime.


Luka is too big for GP2. I seem to have memories of Luka cooking GP2 and giving him the too small gesture in the regular season when we played them.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#82 » by Onus » Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:28 pm

Big J wrote:
Onus wrote:
Sleepy51 wrote:and ... Point of Attack defender is not going to solely mean PG's. There are guys who are going to have the ball in their hands in the playoffs who will simply be too big for Payton to match up on effectively. JK gives us a different look, but still can dog a top tier lead scorer ... at any position.

Yea and that's the difference between GP and OG. There's really no wing too big for him. I think he's the top wing defender outside of Wigs. Having both on the team with Dray behind them, I'd love our chances to defend anyone. They're all special on ball and great off the ball.

Sleepy51 wrote:Good talk though ... not mad at the difference of opinion. You could be right. I hope not, because it would be fun to watch this team compete credibly in the playoffs. My underlying skepticism of our fundamental contention prospects (within the core) this season is enough for me. I don't need to be targeting our marginal players to second guess on top of that. Hope is fun. I'll dance with the girls we brought and like it.


Maybe we don't need og, I still think we can win as constructed. I just think OG gives us a better chance to win. And I'm ok with sacrificing the future to give us the best chance to win at the tail end of Curry's prime.


Luka is too big for GP2. I seem to have memories of Luka cooking GP2 and giving him the too small gesture in the regular season when we played them.

Are you trying to say OG is the better option to guarding Luka than GP2? Yes I agree with that.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#83 » by Big J » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:17 pm

Onus wrote:
Big J wrote:
Onus wrote:Yea and that's the difference between GP and OG. There's really no wing too big for him. I think he's the top wing defender outside of Wigs. Having both on the team with Dray behind them, I'd love our chances to defend anyone. They're all special on ball and great off the ball.



Maybe we don't need og, I still think we can win as constructed. I just think OG gives us a better chance to win. And I'm ok with sacrificing the future to give us the best chance to win at the tail end of Curry's prime.


Luka is too big for GP2. I seem to have memories of Luka cooking GP2 and giving him the too small gesture in the regular season when we played them.

Are you trying to say OG is the better option to guarding Luka than GP2? Yes I agree with that.


I guess, I'm just saying there are some wings that are too big for him. Good thing we have Wiggins for that though.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#84 » by Twinkie defense » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:25 pm

Coxy wrote:
ClutchUp wrote:
zhuangcorp wrote:I actually don't love this move. I felt DDV was already playing his role more than well enough.


I think they were looking ahead with this move. We probably won't be able to retain DDV in the summer.


They don't play the same positions anyway. DDV plays guard roles for us. GPII plays undersized PF and C as a screen role man.

People don't understand GPII's non-traditional role here...

Warriors show that if a guy has talent they can find a role for him...

Blazers did not watch the game tape, tried to put a round peg into a square hole.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#85 » by Twinkie defense » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:28 pm

Xplatformer wrote:Uhm...was this the cheaper option than simply signing him at the end of last season?

Last summer the Warriors were surprised by Portland's offer, and hadn't seen enough of Wiseman yet to realize that money is better spent on GPII.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#86 » by Onus » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:32 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:
Coxy wrote:
ClutchUp wrote:
I think they were looking ahead with this move. We probably won't be able to retain DDV in the summer.


They don't play the same positions anyway. DDV plays guard roles for us. GPII plays undersized PF and C as a screen role man.

People don't understand GPII's non-traditional role here...

Warriors show that if a guy has talent they can find a role for him...

Blazers did not watch the game tape, tried to put a round peg into a square hole.

GP's whole career was that you don't want to play him as a guard who just spaces the floor. You're not going to get a lot of value out of that and you're going to be like this guy shouldn't be in the league. But not everyone runs our offense so ... good for us
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#87 » by Twinkie defense » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:38 pm

Regarding this point of attack stuff, that's a pretty exhausting role. Seems like a great luxury to have several people capable of pressuring the ball.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#88 » by Twinkie defense » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:41 pm

Onus wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:
Coxy wrote:
They don't play the same positions anyway. DDV plays guard roles for us. GPII plays undersized PF and C as a screen role man.

People don't understand GPII's non-traditional role here...

Warriors show that if a guy has talent they can find a role for him...

Blazers did not watch the game tape, tried to put a round peg into a square hole.

GP's whole career was that you don't want to play him as a guard who just spaces the floor. You're not going to get a lot of value out of that and you're going to be like this guy shouldn't be in the league. But not everyone runs our offense so ... good for us

The other night the Blazer announcer was commenting on how many dunks GPII had in GS, while so few in PDX, and I'm thinking yeah, you're not using him right!
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#89 » by Onus » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:43 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:
Onus wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:People don't understand GPII's non-traditional role here...

Warriors show that if a guy has talent they can find a role for him...

Blazers did not watch the game tape, tried to put a round peg into a square hole.

GP's whole career was that you don't want to play him as a guard who just spaces the floor. You're not going to get a lot of value out of that and you're going to be like this guy shouldn't be in the league. But not everyone runs our offense so ... good for us

The other night the Blazer announcer was commenting on how many dunks GPII had in GS, while so few in PDX, and I'm thinking yeah, you're not using him right!

Yea I heard that. It was like 55 dunks last year for gp, and this year he has 1 in 14 games. I'm like yea because you're playing Eubanks and Nurkic with him, let alone with grant, watford and walker. There's no room for him down there.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#90 » by Chris Porter's Hair » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:46 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:
Xplatformer wrote:Uhm...was this the cheaper option than simply signing him at the end of last season?

Last summer the Warriors were surprised by Portland's offer, and hadn't seen enough of Wiseman yet to realize that money is better spent on GPII.

Yes. It would have been slightly beneficial financially if we'd found a way to unload Wiseman prior to the season and matched GP2 at his current salary. But not hugely so, and this approach gave us another half a season to try to figure out if we could make Wiseman work. Just because we decided the answer was 'no' doesn't make it a bad plan, in my mind.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#91 » by CDM_Stats » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:59 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:
Xplatformer wrote:Uhm...was this the cheaper option than simply signing him at the end of last season?

Last summer the Warriors were surprised by Portland's offer, and hadn't seen enough of Wiseman yet to realize that money is better spent on GPII.


I was clearly told by multiple people that it wasn't that Wiseman, among others, was eating up enough salary. It was that the Blazers paid GP2 way more than he was worth, and that we werent interested at that price. Are you telling me that those people were wrong???
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#92 » by CDM_Stats » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:08 pm

Chris Porter's Hair wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:
Xplatformer wrote:Uhm...was this the cheaper option than simply signing him at the end of last season?

Last summer the Warriors were surprised by Portland's offer, and hadn't seen enough of Wiseman yet to realize that money is better spent on GPII.

Yes. It would have been slightly beneficial financially if we'd found a way to unload Wiseman prior to the season and matched GP2 at his current salary. But not hugely so, and this approach gave us another half a season to try to figure out if we could make Wiseman work. Just because we decided the answer was 'no' doesn't make it a bad plan, in my mind.


What made it a bad plan was picking up an option on a guy they had little interest in developing. And I know people are fawning over Kuminga and all that, but its the same plan (and will go the same route, as I'm sure people are noticing). Its the Poole plan. The Looney plan. The Klay plan. The Moody plan. Develop if you can, but no extra effort is going into it. Its just not sustainable, unless the team specifically targets extremely high BBIQ players in the draft, exclusively. But as you can see with Moody, even that isnt without risk because even high BBIQ players need to play to their strengths

Team has always been built to cater to Steph and Draymond. Rightly so for their primes. But their primes are over, and the Warriors core is in the sunset days and the team has not adjusted as they barrel towards the treadmill. This trade - which is coated with all the feelgoods of bringing in a successful and impactful role player from last year (and personal note, A+ dude) but is exactly part of the problem. Its a last gasp in a suddenly loaded West that shows the whole '2 timelines' thing only works if you know when to make the pivot. And the fact that they havent changed their development strategy in the past decade shows to me that they didnt know when to pivot

W's have played the hand they were dealt so so well for so long, but eventually you have to come out of autopilot. Now the hope needs to be that another young raw player in Kuminga doesnt get the same treatment, or else it will end similarly
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#93 » by Coxy » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:27 pm

A nice refresher on GPII's journey. I'm so fricken happy he is back. His D and hustle is exactly what this team needs. His highlight dunks are also gravy.

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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#94 » by Chris Porter's Hair » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:29 pm

CDM_Stats wrote:
Chris Porter's Hair wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:Last summer the Warriors were surprised by Portland's offer, and hadn't seen enough of Wiseman yet to realize that money is better spent on GPII.

Yes. It would have been slightly beneficial financially if we'd found a way to unload Wiseman prior to the season and matched GP2 at his current salary. But not hugely so, and this approach gave us another half a season to try to figure out if we could make Wiseman work. Just because we decided the answer was 'no' doesn't make it a bad plan, in my mind.


What made it a bad plan was picking up an option on a guy they had little interest in developing. And I know people are fawning over Kuminga and all that, but its the same plan (and will go the same route, as I'm sure people are noticing). Its the Poole plan. The Looney plan. The Klay plan. The Moody plan. Develop if you can, but no extra effort is going into it. Its just not sustainable, unless the team specifically targets extremely high BBIQ players in the draft, exclusively. But as you can see with Moody, even that isnt without risk because even high BBIQ players need to play to their strengths

Team has always been built to cater to Steph and Draymond. Rightly so for their primes. But their primes are over, and the Warriors core is in the sunset days and the team has not adjusted as they barrel towards the treadmill. This trade - which is coated with all the feelgoods of bringing in a successful and impactful role player from last year (and personal note, A+ dude) but is exactly part of the problem. Its a last gasp in a suddenly loaded West that shows the whole '2 timelines' thing only works if you know when to make the pivot. And the fact that they havent changed their development strategy in the past decade shows to me that they didnt know when to pivot

W's have played the hand they were dealt so so well for so long, but eventually you have to come out of autopilot. Now the hope needs to be that another young raw player in Kuminga doesnt get the same treatment, or else it will end similarly

It amazes me how violently this board swung from, "Wiseman is the worst player in the history of the world and you'd have to be crazy to let him touch the floor" to "I can't believe we aren't playing him and developing him!" The team got to see a lot of him that we didn't. They got to see him in practice. They got to see how he reacted to feedback. They got to talk to doctors about his health. It is entirely possible they wanted to "develop him", but concluded he really wasn't ready to play more minutes yet. In addition, this team isn't where any of us thought they'd be right now. If we were cruising along in the 1-3 seed, they might have felt they had more leeway to give him chances, or more garbage time to play him in. Even in your post, we have, "The Warriors shouldn't have drafted a player that needed development and then not developed him, but also the Warriors aren't adjusting to changing conditions."
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#95 » by Coxy » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:43 pm

Onus wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:
Onus wrote:GP's whole career was that you don't want to play him as a guard who just spaces the floor. You're not going to get a lot of value out of that and you're going to be like this guy shouldn't be in the league. But not everyone runs our offense so ... good for us

The other night the Blazer announcer was commenting on how many dunks GPII had in GS, while so few in PDX, and I'm thinking yeah, you're not using him right!

Yea I heard that. It was like 55 dunks last year for gp, and this year he has 1 in 14 games. I'm like yea because you're playing Eubanks and Nurkic with him, let alone with grant, watford and walker. There's no room for him down there.


Gary is also coming back from an off-season procedure to fix a core muscle injury. That's like, fairly important for the dunk shot to be a reliable option one would think.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#96 » by Twinkie defense » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:46 pm

CDM_Stats wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:
Xplatformer wrote:Uhm...was this the cheaper option than simply signing him at the end of last season?

Last summer the Warriors were surprised by Portland's offer, and hadn't seen enough of Wiseman yet to realize that money is better spent on GPII.


I was clearly told by multiple people that it wasn't that Wiseman, among others, was eating up enough salary. It was that the Blazers paid GP2 way more than he was worth, and that we werent interested at that price. Are you telling me that those people were wrong???

If the Warriors were under the cap instead of so deep into the tax, I'm sure they would have had a different calculus. Problem was there was one slot, and it's hard to let go of a 21 year old seven footer who you recently drafted #2 overall and who had barely played so far due to injury.

Well Wiseman has been mostly healthy this season, and Warriors decided they had seen enough. I don't think that means Warriors made the wrong decision last summer, or didn't value GPII. You make decisions based on the best data you have at the time.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#97 » by Onus » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:47 pm

Chris Porter's Hair wrote:
CDM_Stats wrote:
Chris Porter's Hair wrote:Yes. It would have been slightly beneficial financially if we'd found a way to unload Wiseman prior to the season and matched GP2 at his current salary. But not hugely so, and this approach gave us another half a season to try to figure out if we could make Wiseman work. Just because we decided the answer was 'no' doesn't make it a bad plan, in my mind.


What made it a bad plan was picking up an option on a guy they had little interest in developing. And I know people are fawning over Kuminga and all that, but its the same plan (and will go the same route, as I'm sure people are noticing). Its the Poole plan. The Looney plan. The Klay plan. The Moody plan. Develop if you can, but no extra effort is going into it. Its just not sustainable, unless the team specifically targets extremely high BBIQ players in the draft, exclusively. But as you can see with Moody, even that isnt without risk because even high BBIQ players need to play to their strengths

Team has always been built to cater to Steph and Draymond. Rightly so for their primes. But their primes are over, and the Warriors core is in the sunset days and the team has not adjusted as they barrel towards the treadmill. This trade - which is coated with all the feelgoods of bringing in a successful and impactful role player from last year (and personal note, A+ dude) but is exactly part of the problem. Its a last gasp in a suddenly loaded West that shows the whole '2 timelines' thing only works if you know when to make the pivot. And the fact that they havent changed their development strategy in the past decade shows to me that they didnt know when to pivot

W's have played the hand they were dealt so so well for so long, but eventually you have to come out of autopilot. Now the hope needs to be that another young raw player in Kuminga doesnt get the same treatment, or else it will end similarly

It amazes me how violently this board swung from, "Wiseman is the worst player in the history of the world and you'd have to be crazy to let him touch the floor" to "I can't believe we aren't playing him and developing him!" The team got to see a lot of him that we didn't. They got to see him in practice. They got to see how he reacted to feedback. They got to talk to doctors about his health. It is entirely possible they wanted to "develop him", but concluded he really wasn't ready to play more minutes yet. In addition, this team isn't where any of us thought they'd be right now. If we were cruising along in the 1-3 seed, they might have felt they had more leeway to give him chances, or more garbage time to play him in. Even in your post, we have, "The Warriors shouldn't have drafted a player that needed development and then not developed him, but also the Warriors aren't adjusting to changing conditions."


If we had won against the pistons, hornets, and magic, Wiseman is most likely still on this team. And really this entire year has been been a developmental year just for a singular player. We're trying to develop Poole into a closing player, which hasn't worked at all. His development superceded everyone else's development because we couldn't close games with him in the lineup. So they've been playing around with the bench lineups to make that work, which just meant removing the young guys from the lineups, but it wasn't a big enough change because we were still closing with our worst line up, trying to develop poole. Now bringing in GP he'll probably be taking minutes away from Kuminga as well, so we're just not going to develop anyone except Poole because Poole is going to make so much money.
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#98 » by CDM_Stats » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:51 pm

Chris Porter's Hair wrote:
CDM_Stats wrote:
Chris Porter's Hair wrote:Yes. It would have been slightly beneficial financially if we'd found a way to unload Wiseman prior to the season and matched GP2 at his current salary. But not hugely so, and this approach gave us another half a season to try to figure out if we could make Wiseman work. Just because we decided the answer was 'no' doesn't make it a bad plan, in my mind.


What made it a bad plan was picking up an option on a guy they had little interest in developing. And I know people are fawning over Kuminga and all that, but its the same plan (and will go the same route, as I'm sure people are noticing). Its the Poole plan. The Looney plan. The Klay plan. The Moody plan. Develop if you can, but no extra effort is going into it. Its just not sustainable, unless the team specifically targets extremely high BBIQ players in the draft, exclusively. But as you can see with Moody, even that isnt without risk because even high BBIQ players need to play to their strengths

Team has always been built to cater to Steph and Draymond. Rightly so for their primes. But their primes are over, and the Warriors core is in the sunset days and the team has not adjusted as they barrel towards the treadmill. This trade - which is coated with all the feelgoods of bringing in a successful and impactful role player from last year (and personal note, A+ dude) but is exactly part of the problem. Its a last gasp in a suddenly loaded West that shows the whole '2 timelines' thing only works if you know when to make the pivot. And the fact that they havent changed their development strategy in the past decade shows to me that they didnt know when to pivot

W's have played the hand they were dealt so so well for so long, but eventually you have to come out of autopilot. Now the hope needs to be that another young raw player in Kuminga doesnt get the same treatment, or else it will end similarly

It amazes me how violently this board swung from, "Wiseman is the worst player in the history of the world and you'd have to be crazy to let him touch the floor" to "I can't believe we aren't playing him and developing him!" The team got to see a lot of him that we didn't. They got to see him in practice. They got to see how he reacted to feedback. They got to talk to doctors about his health. It is entirely possible they wanted to "develop him", but concluded he really wasn't ready to play more minutes yet. In addition, this team isn't where any of us thought they'd be right now. If we were cruising along in the 1-3 seed, they might have felt they had more leeway to give him chances, or more garbage time to play him in. Even in your post, we have, "The Warriors shouldn't have drafted a player that needed development and then not developed him, but also the Warriors aren't adjusting to changing conditions."


Not sure why I'm being held to other people's takes, but sure, you can say they wanted to develop him.. but where? How? He was never a rim runner, he was a halfcourt player that primarily stayed in the paint for HS and 'college'. And they said, OK, you can do those things, can you do all these other things that youve never done before? (Mitch Hedberg: "can you farm??"). What was changed at all to help a high value asset develop? Nothing? And the result was bad? It shouldnt be that shocking. Its a systemic problem thats going to become more and more obvious as the vets sunset. Words <<<< actions, and the actions havent been there

The expectation was that they understood this because everything has gone so well the past 10 years, but they don't. And thats not a guess, it's a trend. Where's Klay's BBIQ improvement in 10 years? Did Looney become smart, or did he learn a new position? Is Poole playing smarter? Warriors have effectively made one major systemic change the past 10 years, and it came from Ron Adams transitioning out of the defensive QB role and abandoning Bogut/Ezeli/Zaza's drop defense which helped Dray more than anyone. Again, catering to the big 2 here. And thats worked out great for a decade. But the era is almost over and if there's any hope of the 2 timelines thing succeeding, they need to change something. You can make it all about Wiseman if you want, but this is how they've 'developed' everyone. And that future now looks like a max level combo guard who's a huge defensive liability, a combo forward that needs to be POA or is a huge problem defensively (nevermind rebounding/offense), and - most likely their best bet going forward - a Channing Frye type. You can't develop a foundation that way, and now they've traded a high upside big - someone who was always going to have trouble fitting into timeline 1 - for a rotational player trying to extend that window.

So the two timelines thing is really just 1, with the hopes that we stumble into 2. And thats not really a great plan
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#99 » by Twinkie defense » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:52 pm

CDM_Stats wrote:What made it a bad plan was picking up an option on a guy they had little interest in developing.

Wiseman wasn't a failure of player development - Warriors hired an expensive new player development coach, Dejan Milojević, just to help develop Wiseman. The Warriors have a big player development staff and bought their own G-League team just to develop players. No, the problem with Wiseman is he just can't play very well, and probably especially so within the Warriors' schemes.

Regarding the option, of course they pick it up - he didn't play last season, so the Warriors still didn't know what they had!
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Re: Welcome back GP2!! 

Post#100 » by CDM_Stats » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:53 pm

Onus wrote:
If we had won against the pistons, hornets, and magic, Wiseman is most likely still on this team.


unfortunately, no

Wasn't there a story about Kerr and Wiseman having a talk recently? Why would that even come up..

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