2022-23 Season Discussion and Review - the Blockbuster trade and playoff downfall

[WeekapaugGroove]

I think the next 20 games and the playoffs will determine if they trade DA this summer. This team is Booker and KDs for the next few years so he either needs to show he's a good fit or they should trade him for pieces that do.

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Yes, especially if the team doesn't make the finals and DA is still getting 6-7 FGA he's 100% gone. Send him to a team willing to use him as a 2nd/3rd option and guarantee him 12-15 shots. He was at around 13 with Rubio, 10 with Paul and 7 now (though a small sample size). At this rate they will lose him for nothing once his contract is over.

I think they move on from DA if there is a decent deal, mainly because we don't have much for options, particularly for future PG. So if there is a PG/C combo out there I thought we might. I think I mentioned Rozier and Plumlee before, but I think Plumlee is gone. Not sure who else. No one made need him. I only saw maybe 3-4 teams that I thought might be interested before (and had assets that make sense coming back) and after that draft that number may shrink.

I imagine they keep Paul though and try to keep Payne, so they may hold off one more year.

There is also the tax/repeater tax issue, so keeping that in mind, they may just want to trade him to take back less salary. But if Ishbia really wants to compete, I don't think he is traded for something that wouldn't improve us somehow. It seems like there are a number of high paid Cs out there and then you have a handful of bargains that teams signed before they broke out. Then rebuilding teams that may prefer finding one in the draft or are already developing one (Utah, Detroit, etc).

If we did look very short term at this being KD/Booker and focusing on that 2-3 year window, and trade Ayton for a couple of decent role players at PG/C, we may end up a shell of a team when KD is done. We would have a couple of first rounders to use the next 5 years though to maybe get a couple prospects.

Or we can just bank on definitely signing another star.

Well they are only on a 3 year window after this with Aytons contract. Everything in the NBA is on 2-3 year cycles, hell a third of the league changes teams every summer. You deal with 5 years out when you get there.

As far as Ayton specifically I think he's clearly behind Booker and KD in importance to the franchise. So they need to figure out if he works with those two and if not then you find players who do. It's really that simple and frankly Ayton should thrive with those guys getting so much defensive attention.

And yeah I could absolutely see them use Ayton as the trade chip to replace CP.

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[bwgood77]

Yes, especially if the team doesn't make the finals and DA is still getting 6-7 FGA he's 100% gone. Send him to a team willing to use him as a 2nd/3rd option and guarantee him 12-15 shots. He was at around 13 with Rubio, 10 with Paul and 7 now (though a small sample size). At this rate they will lose him for nothing once his contract is over.

I think they move on from DA if there is a decent deal, mainly because we don't have much for options, particularly for future PG. So if there is a PG/C combo out there I thought we might. I think I mentioned Rozier and Plumlee before, but I think Plumlee is gone. Not sure who else. No one made need him. I only saw maybe 3-4 teams that I thought might be interested before (and had assets that make sense coming back) and after that draft that number may shrink.

I imagine they keep Paul though and try to keep Payne, so they may hold off one more year.

There is also the tax/repeater tax issue, so keeping that in mind, they may just want to trade him to take back less salary. But if Ishbia really wants to compete, I don't think he is traded for something that wouldn't improve us somehow. It seems like there are a number of high paid Cs out there and then you have a handful of bargains that teams signed before they broke out. Then rebuilding teams that may prefer finding one in the draft or are already developing one (Utah, Detroit, etc).

If we did look very short term at this being KD/Booker and focusing on that 2-3 year window, and trade Ayton for a couple of decent role players at PG/C, we may end up a shell of a team when KD is done. We would have a couple of first rounders to use the next 5 years though to maybe get a couple prospects.

Or we can just bank on definitely signing another star.

Well they are only on a 3 year window after this with Aytons contract. Everything in the NBA is on 2-3 year cycles, hell a third of the league changes teams every summer. You deal with 5 years out when you get there.

As far as Ayton specifically I think he's clearly behind Booker and KD in importance to the franchise. So they need to figure out if he works with those two and if not then you find players who do. It's really that simple and frankly Ayton should thrive with those guys getting so much defensive attention.

And yeah I could absolutely see them use Ayton as the trade chip to replace CP.

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Yeah, of course Ayton is clearly behind KD and Book in importance to the franchise. I mean, there is a gulf after those two and anyone else..the size of the Grand Canyon. But figuring out how he works with those two should be a lot easier than trying to find a suitable trade partner that gives you good value in players returning that you absolutely 100% know will work perfectly with Book and KD.

I definitely disagree with "everything in the NBA being in 2-3 year cycles", though we seem to be there, and Brooklyn basically was. Most all other contenders/competitive teams have quite a bit of sustainability. Teams that think "we will worry about 5 years out when you get there" that's not a very good mantra to live by, and Brooklyn learned that (and luckily made some late savvy picks despite trading Tatum and Brown picks for KD and Pierce to go for that championship in their 2 year window). Living by that mantra is like maxing out your credit cards now and saving no money and saying "I'll worry about 5 years later then".

Ishbia is a new eager owner though and I get it...make that splash and it puts your team in the drivers seat for a little while even if the car is old and fragile and you have depleted your options for the future (not completely, as there are always some options, if fewer ones at your disposal).

Of course it's just basketball though..and if you can have a little better chance at a championship, you gotta go for it.

[enigmatics]

And yeah I could absolutely see them use Ayton as the trade chip to replace CP.

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That is most definitely on the table if they don't see him taking a step in the right direction.

[enigmatics]

Insisting DA gets 15 shots is a recipe for disaster.

Force feeding someone who hasnt the appetite leaves food on the table. Do they actually have plays for him other than the mediocre PnR? I dont have the BBall technical mind about back screens and down screens and such, but you dont here much commentary about it.

Dont know the stats but how many PnRs end up with the ball getting to DA. How many end up with CP shooting, or just him meandering away the shot clock. Ayton isnt good at all with setting picks. Doesnt have the greatest hands…. Should this be our bread and butter with him?

Not worried really. It a rinse repeat discussion/critique of DA. Hes more important on D and the Boards at this point.

CP is the weaklink IMO

As I see it - they need a center who isn't finesse and doesn't specifically need to be fed "x" amount of times to mentally stay checked into the game. They need a guy who wants to punish/demoralize people down low, especially via offensive boarding and putbacks.

I mean think about the discussion here. They've got two of the NBA's most lethal scorers - we're still talking about needing to feed DA. It's not reality at this point anymore. It should be specifically based on the matchup if it presents itself. If he's not out there hustling and making his teammates believe in him then I don't blame them one bit.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I think they move on from DA if there is a decent deal, mainly because we don't have much for options, particularly for future PG. So if there is a PG/C combo out there I thought we might. I think I mentioned Rozier and Plumlee before, but I think Plumlee is gone. Not sure who else. No one made need him. I only saw maybe 3-4 teams that I thought might be interested before (and had assets that make sense coming back) and after that draft that number may shrink.

I imagine they keep Paul though and try to keep Payne, so they may hold off one more year.

There is also the tax/repeater tax issue, so keeping that in mind, they may just want to trade him to take back less salary. But if Ishbia really wants to compete, I don't think he is traded for something that wouldn't improve us somehow. It seems like there are a number of high paid Cs out there and then you have a handful of bargains that teams signed before they broke out. Then rebuilding teams that may prefer finding one in the draft or are already developing one (Utah, Detroit, etc).

If we did look very short term at this being KD/Booker and focusing on that 2-3 year window, and trade Ayton for a couple of decent role players at PG/C, we may end up a shell of a team when KD is done. We would have a couple of first rounders to use the next 5 years though to maybe get a couple prospects.

Or we can just bank on definitely signing another star.

Well they are only on a 3 year window after this with Aytons contract. Everything in the NBA is on 2-3 year cycles, hell a third of the league changes teams every summer. You deal with 5 years out when you get there.

As far as Ayton specifically I think he's clearly behind Booker and KD in importance to the franchise. So they need to figure out if he works with those two and if not then you find players who do. It's really that simple and frankly Ayton should thrive with those guys getting so much defensive attention.

And yeah I could absolutely see them use Ayton as the trade chip to replace CP.

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Yeah, of course Ayton is clearly behind KD and Book in importance to the franchise. I mean, there is a gulf after those two and anyone else..the size of the Grand Canyon. But figuring out how he works with those two should be a lot easier than trying to find a suitable trade partner that gives you good value in players returning that you absolutely 100% know will work perfectly with Book and KD.

I definitely disagree with "everything in the NBA being in 2-3 year cycles", though we seem to be there, and Brooklyn basically was. Most all other contenders/competitive teams have quite a bit of sustainability. Teams that think "we will worry about 5 years out when you get there" that's not a very good mantra to live by, and Brooklyn learned that (and luckily made some late savvy picks despite trading Tatum and Brown picks for KD and Pierce to go for that championship in their 2 year window). Living by that mantra is like maxing out your credit cards now and saving no money and saying "I'll worry about 5 years later then".

Ishbia is a new eager owner though and I get it...make that splash and it puts your team in the drivers seat for a little while even if the car is old and fragile and you have depleted your options for the future (not completely, as there are always some options, if fewer ones at your disposal).

Of course it's just basketball though..and if you can have a little better chance at a championship, you gotta go for it.

I'm probably not articulating my point and it's not that they shouldn't worry about the future at all. No offense, but I think you focus too much future planning when it's a league that has a ton of player movement and the vast majority of contracts are 4 yrs or less. Like you'll ask if they trade Ayton then who will be Booker's running mate in 2027 and my answer would be ask me in 2026. Like when they traded for CP it was like how are they going to get better when he gets older.. well they traded for KD, that's how but that's not something we could have predicted at the time.

Keep trying to win in the present and accept there's always uncertainty in the future.

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[Jdiddy701]

And yeah I could absolutely see them use Ayton as the trade chip to replace CP.

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That is most definitely on the table if they don't see him taking a step in the right direction.

I agree trading Ayton in the offseason for a Chris Paul replacement. With KD and Book, I don’t think we need much from the center position.

The only way we keep Ayton is if he would be able to live up and play to his full potential. I just don’t see that happening.

I can see a S&T scenario with Kyrie to Phoenix and Ayton to Dallas this offseason. Kyrie, KD and Booker are a deadly trio. For the record, I would never do this but can see the Suns front office considering it.


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[bwgood77]

Well they are only on a 3 year window after this with Aytons contract. Everything in the NBA is on 2-3 year cycles, hell a third of the league changes teams every summer. You deal with 5 years out when you get there.

As far as Ayton specifically I think he's clearly behind Booker and KD in importance to the franchise. So they need to figure out if he works with those two and if not then you find players who do. It's really that simple and frankly Ayton should thrive with those guys getting so much defensive attention.

And yeah I could absolutely see them use Ayton as the trade chip to replace CP.

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Yeah, of course Ayton is clearly behind KD and Book in importance to the franchise. I mean, there is a gulf after those two and anyone else..the size of the Grand Canyon. But figuring out how he works with those two should be a lot easier than trying to find a suitable trade partner that gives you good value in players returning that you absolutely 100% know will work perfectly with Book and KD.

I definitely disagree with "everything in the NBA being in 2-3 year cycles", though we seem to be there, and Brooklyn basically was. Most all other contenders/competitive teams have quite a bit of sustainability. Teams that think "we will worry about 5 years out when you get there" that's not a very good mantra to live by, and Brooklyn learned that (and luckily made some late savvy picks despite trading Tatum and Brown picks for KD and Pierce to go for that championship in their 2 year window). Living by that mantra is like maxing out your credit cards now and saving no money and saying "I'll worry about 5 years later then".

Ishbia is a new eager owner though and I get it...make that splash and it puts your team in the drivers seat for a little while even if the car is old and fragile and you have depleted your options for the future (not completely, as there are always some options, if fewer ones at your disposal).

Of course it's just basketball though..and if you can have a little better chance at a championship, you gotta go for it.

I'm probably not articulating my point and it's not that they shouldn't worry about the future at all. No offense, but I think you focus too much future planning when it's a league that has a ton of player movement and the vast majority of contracts are 4 yrs or less. Like you'll ask if they trade Ayton then who will be Booker's running mate in 2027 and my answer would be ask me in 2026. Like when they traded for CP it was like how are they going to get better when he gets older.. well they traded for KD, that's how but that's not something we could have predicted at the time.

Keep trying to win in the present and accept there's always uncertainty in the future.

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I see your point, and understand your line of thinking about how teams should be managed. Obviously with Chris Paul and then KD wanting to come here is the perfect whirlwind in a 3 year period and 2 top 20 players of all time wanting to play on your team with a more current star is a true rarity, so we couldn't have predicted it or likely expect something similar to happen in the future.

But I think of building from within not as only 4 year contracts, but that you control a player for 8-9 years...and probably more unless you can't build something. Like the Bucks did with Giannis. Obviously there are not many Giannis' level players so that's rare, but the Bucks nearly screwed that up by not putting the right pieces around him for a long time...and they still haven't built nearly the foundation of players that other contending teams of recent years and in the recent past have, like GS did through the draft, or Boston did through the draft, along with multiple others (Denver, Memphis, New Orleans, etc).

Of course you do have the Brooklyn, Miami, LA team approach as well, and every so often that works for a year or two, but yes, as you mentioned, or those types of teams, it's more of a 2-3 year cycle and a big hope in FA every few years....and you will have highs and lows, as the LA teams and Brooklyn have. Miami has done a little better at staying competitive post big 3, but by the standards we judge the Suns the last two years, they have failed.

[spanishninja]

And yeah I could absolutely see them use Ayton as the trade chip to replace CP.

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That is most definitely on the table if they don't see him taking a step in the right direction.

I agree trading Ayton in the offseason for a Chris Paul replacement. With KD and Book, I don’t think we need much from the center position.

The only way we keep Ayton is if he would be able to live up and play to his full potential. I just don’t see that happening.

I can see a S&T scenario with Kyrie to Phoenix and Ayton to Dallas this offseason. Kyrie, KD and Booker are a deadly trio. For the record, I would never do this but can see the Suns front office considering it.


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Nobody outside of Dallas wants to see the Mavs get a real center.

[bwgood77]

That is most definitely on the table if they don't see him taking a step in the right direction.

I agree trading Ayton in the offseason for a Chris Paul replacement. With KD and Book, I don’t think we need much from the center position.

The only way we keep Ayton is if he would be able to live up and play to his full potential. I just don’t see that happening.

I can see a S&T scenario with Kyrie to Phoenix and Ayton to Dallas this offseason. Kyrie, KD and Booker are a deadly trio. For the record, I would never do this but can see the Suns front office considering it.


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Nobody outside of Dallas wants to see the Mavs get a real center.

While I don't think there are a ton of places Ayton makes sense given team C needs, the draft, and what we could get back (all 3 have to make sense), I do think Dallas would love to get Ayton, especially if they are not sure they can keep Kyrie and he wants to come to Phx.

With Luka's passing and driving, along with Ayton being able to be in there to stretch the floor a little bit and shoot, or Luka could dish it when everyone focuses on him, allowing Ayton to finish, that would be interesting.

We would be interesting too...probably in more ways than one...but would have 3 of the very best talents in the world. We would probably go deeper in the tax though, as I imagine Kyrie would make more than Ayton. Or I guess we could throw Shamet in.

[spanishninja]

I agree trading Ayton in the offseason for a Chris Paul replacement. With KD and Book, I don’t think we need much from the center position.

The only way we keep Ayton is if he would be able to live up and play to his full potential. I just don’t see that happening.

I can see a S&T scenario with Kyrie to Phoenix and Ayton to Dallas this offseason. Kyrie, KD and Booker are a deadly trio. For the record, I would never do this but can see the Suns front office considering it.


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Nobody outside of Dallas wants to see the Mavs get a real center.

While I don't think there are a ton of places Ayton makes sense given team C needs, the draft, and what we could get back (all 3 have to make sense), I do think Dallas would love to get Ayton, especially if they are not sure they can keep Kyrie and he wants to come to Phx.

With Luka's passing and driving, along with Ayton being able to be in there to stretch the floor a little bit and shoot, or Luka could dish it when everyone focuses on him, allowing Ayton to finish, that would be interesting.

We would be interesting too...probably in more ways than one...but would have 3 of the very best talents in the world. We would probably go deeper in the tax though, as I imagine Kyrie would make more than Ayton. Or I guess we could throw Shamet in.

what you said is why nobody wants Luka to get a real center

[thamadkant]

Lol at trading Ayton to Mavs.

Why would you make your rival stronger? Ayton with Luka's risk taking passes and lobs would absolutely thrive. I love CP3 but he has been less risk taking and would rather pass out to shooters than inside the paint unless it's 100% clear. Luka tends to be more risky with those passes and having an inside guy would add to his options... rather than kicking out to 3s he would have another one in the middle who can finish above the rim, soft shot or a quick hook...


It's clear KD and Booker are going to be shooting near 20 shots a game and that's fine. Ayton will either become a Deandre Jordan type or they could actually stagger the roles so Ayton gets more shots when Booker or Durant sits.

There is absolutely NO reason why the team cannot fit Ayton and give him 15 shots. Rather that than give Okogie or Craig 5 plus shots from the 3pt line... This is a Monty thing and I think if Suns fail in the playoffs he is out.

[MrMiyagi]

And yeah I could absolutely see them use Ayton as the trade chip to replace CP.

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That is most definitely on the table if they don't see him taking a step in the right direction.

I agree trading Ayton in the offseason for a Chris Paul replacement. With KD and Book, I don’t think we need much from the center position.

The only way we keep Ayton is if he would be able to live up and play to his full potential. I just don’t see that happening.

I can see a S&T scenario with Kyrie to Phoenix and Ayton to Dallas this offseason. Kyrie, KD and Booker are a deadly trio. For the record, I would never do this but can see the Suns front office considering it.


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I just threw up.

[spanishninja]

Looking at the remaining games, I count 3 games that where we can realistically lose (Phila, Mar Denver game, and Milwaukee) and 5 other games that it can be 50/50 (two Sac games, two LAC and one GSW). Aside from those, assuming we don't lose any other games, we will end up anywhere between 3-5 more losses. So between 48-34 and 50-32. Good enough for 3rd place or better? will have to see.

[Jdiddy701]

That is most definitely on the table if they don't see him taking a step in the right direction.

I agree trading Ayton in the offseason for a Chris Paul replacement. With KD and Book, I don’t think we need much from the center position.

The only way we keep Ayton is if he would be able to live up and play to his full potential. I just don’t see that happening.

I can see a S&T scenario with Kyrie to Phoenix and Ayton to Dallas this offseason. Kyrie, KD and Booker are a deadly trio. For the record, I would never do this but can see the Suns front office considering it.


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I just threw up.

It disgusts me too.. as frustrating as Ayton is, I for sure would not trade him to Dallas.


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[Jdiddy701]

Lol at trading Ayton to Mavs.

Why would you make your rival stronger? Ayton with Luka's risk taking passes and lobs would absolutely thrive. I love CP3 but he has been less risk taking and would rather pass out to shooters than inside the paint unless it's 100% clear. Luka tends to be more risky with those passes and having an inside guy would add to his options... rather than kicking out to 3s he would have another one in the middle who can finish above the rim, soft shot or a quick hook...


It's clear KD and Booker are going to be shooting near 20 shots a game and that's fine. Ayton will either become a Deandre Jordan type or they could actually stagger the roles so Ayton gets more shots when Booker or Durant sits.

There is absolutely NO reason why the team cannot fit Ayton and give him 15 shots. Rather that than give Okogie or Craig 5 plus shots from the 3pt line... This is a Monty thing and I think if Suns fail in the playoffs he is out.

Taking shots away from Booker and Durant to give to Ayton is not very smart imo. I think the way Booker and KD play opens things up more for 3pt shooters than a center. At least that’s what I’ve noticed so far.

The Suns need a center that excels in rebounding, protecting the paint, and finishing lobs. I wonder if the front office is fine paying a center over 30 million a year for that type of role.

It’s still SUPER early with Kevin Durant, so maybe I should just wait and see how things play out. Really hoping DA can star in his limited role.

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[lilfishi22]

I proposed a few days ago DA is staggered so that he plays first 5-6 mins, then goes to the bench, then plays 6 mins at end of 1st/3rd, start 2nd/4th qtrs. They should find him some shots otherwise just go and trade him in the offseason. Byiombo is exactly what 90% of people on this board want from DA anyway.

I think the next 20 games and the playoffs will determine if they trade DA this summer. This team is Booker and KDs for the next few years so he either needs to show he's a good fit or they should trade him for pieces that do.

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Agreed. I don't think there's a big enough role for him in Phoenix if he wants to be this guy who gets 15-18shots a game like he was earlier in the season when we had no other offensive threat on the floor. To me, I think he's in a good situation based on his abilities. If he can pick up a semi-reliable 3PT shot or improve his handles so he can create some, he'll get more opportunities but as of right now, he's maxing out as the 3rd option which I think is where he should be.

[lilfishi22]

And yeah I could absolutely see them use Ayton as the trade chip to replace CP.

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That is most definitely on the table if they don't see him taking a step in the right direction.

I agree trading Ayton in the offseason for a Chris Paul replacement. With KD and Book, I don’t think we need much from the center position.

The only way we keep Ayton is if he would be able to live up and play to his full potential. I just don’t see that happening.

I can see a S&T scenario with Kyrie to Phoenix and Ayton to Dallas this offseason. Kyrie, KD and Booker are a deadly trio. For the record, I would never do this but can see the Suns front office considering it.


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You didn't get enough of the shtshow in Brooklyn you want to bring Kyrie to the desert?

[WeekapaugGroove]

Oh yeah I think the Kyrie/Ayton thing is possible. I choose not to acknowledge it because I hate the thought of it so much.

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[Cutter]

Suns want Ayton to get around 10-12 shots (+ or -) per game to keep his gravity active and his defender(s) near him. He is ultra efficient on offense and Suns need Ayton to remain active on offense so the defense has to respond. Suns take around 90 shots per game, so Ayton getting fed 10-12 shots per game is helpful to the overall offensive scheme and doesn't starve KD or Booker of attempts.

[Cutter]

No way would Suns trade their #1 pick to a hated rival in the Mavs. Also I would much rather pay Ayton $30 million per year than pay that to Kyrie.