Let’s clear up Mavs Warriors ref stuff

[Nuntius]

I wonder if Kevon Looney's misunderstanding of the call tipped everyone off the wrong way. I.e. folks saw him complaining and took that to believe it was called Mavericks ball.


If so I really want to believe that Kevon Looney just jedi-mind-tricked everyone on purpose; which would be epic.

Note that I don't really think any of that happened but it's fun to think about

I'm not ready to give Looney that much credit

I suspect he saw the timeout point and said "Wait, what?" and then the ref said, "no I was just saying it is their timeout, it is still Warriors ball" and that chilled Looney out.

Yep, that's clearly what happened. But if you notice what happens behind Looney when he talks to the ref, you will see Christian Wood clapping as if he believes that the ref called Mavs ball. The ref could have communicated to Wood that it was Warriors ball but it doesn't look like he communicated that to Wood or any other Maverick.

[Nuntius]

The referees job is to be clear, which they were. It's not their job to make sure a group of professional basketball players are paying attention. That's on the coaching staff.

lmao, they were very far from clear. Pointing in both directions in quick succession is confusing, as you can see even Kevon Looney is pizzed about the call until the ref explains to him it's actually Warriors ball

I agree it was confusing and poorly executed. But Christian Wood also gets the same explanation Looney got, while the ref is pointing Warrior ball with his thumb.

Where I think the refs screwed up is if the PA announcer gets it wrong, the refs should ask for a correction if there is a timeout. At some level this is entertainment and there's no reason not to clarify for everyone -- TV, the fans, and the players. I'm not replaying this game but the refs should be setting the proper expectation for everyone.

Did Wood get the same explanation as Looney, though? When the ref is talking to Looney, Wood can be seen clapping in agreement. That's what players do when the refs give them the ball, not when they give them to their opponent. I am not sure that Wood got the right explanation there.

[Nate505]

Someone theorized about it on the other thread. Their theory was that the Mavs thought that there was a delay in the game. When there's a delay of game, the two teams are supposed to stay on their side of the court. The Warriors were on their side of their court so the Mavs did the same. They only started realizing that something was up when the ref gave the ball to the Warriors but by then it was too late.

For what is worth, Looney also started sprinting towards the other side of the court at first despite already knowing what the ref had called. So, it is pretty clear to me that the level of communication between that ref and the teams was sorely lacking.

If that's the case, that's the angle they should be hammering. That the ref didn't blow the whistle for the resumption of play (or however that works).

If the ref did and they're still standing around there, I wouldn't care if the ref delayed the start for them to realize what's going on, but on the other hand it's not their job for them to understand it either. They're supposed to be professionals.

It also makes what Cuban said be totally non-sensical, though this is Mark Cuban we're talking about:

"During the time out the official changed the call and never told us," Cuban wrote. "Then when they saw us line up as if it were our ball, he just gave the ball to the warriors. Never said a word to us They got an easy basketball. Crazy that it would matter in a 2 point game."

Ok, let's assume the first part he said was true, the official changed the call and never told them. At what point did the Mavs line up as if it were their ball? Were they lining up 40 feet from where they were supposed to inbound the ball?

[HiRez]

That's awful officiating. If an entire team has been led to believe it's their ball, you clear that up, regardless of how it happened.

All of the Warriors players or coaching staff knew what was up though. Kerr drew up an out-of-bounds offensive play during the timeout and all their players set up for it, and executed it (albeit awkwardly). The only confusing part for them was there were no Mavs defenders on that end of the court. If the Mavs thought it was their ball, where was their inbounder? Or other player to receive the inbounds pass? All 5 players were over the half court line, which shouldn't be the case no matter whose ball they thought it was. If the Mavs were confused about it, why didn't they go to the officials to ask about it? And it appears Cuban is flat out lying about what happened. They didn't "change the call during the timeout".

[Nate505]

This is one of those calls where I hope Cuban challenges it, gets denied and looks like a massive whiner and a moron and his rep takes a hit because of it.

I mean, it can't get any much lower than it has with me, but perhaps there are some people who still hold him in high esteem for whatever reason.

[Nuntius]

Someone theorized about it on the other thread. Their theory was that the Mavs thought that there was a delay in the game. When there's a delay of game, the two teams are supposed to stay on their side of the court. The Warriors were on their side of their court so the Mavs did the same. They only started realizing that something was up when the ref gave the ball to the Warriors but by then it was too late.

For what is worth, Looney also started sprinting towards the other side of the court at first despite already knowing what the ref had called. So, it is pretty clear to me that the level of communication between that ref and the teams was sorely lacking.

If that's the case, that's the angle they should be hammering. That the ref didn't blow the whistle for the resumption of play (or however that works).

If the ref did and they're still standing around there, I wouldn't care if the ref delayed the start for them to realize what's going on, but on the other hand it's not their job for them to understand it either. They're supposed to be professionals.

On the other hand, if they did blow the whistle to resume play and the Mavs didn't respond, oh well. Again, this isn't a Y League.

It also makes what Cuban said be totally non-sensical, though this is Mark Cuban we're talking about:

"During the time out the official changed the call and never told us," Cuban wrote. "Then when they saw us line up as if it were our ball, he just gave the ball to the warriors. Never said a word to us They got an easy basketball. Crazy that it would matter in a 2 point game."


Ok, let's assume the first part he said was true, the official changed the call and never told them. At what point did the Mavs line up as if it were their ball? Were they lining up 40 feet from where they were supposed to inbound the ball?

Who knows? What Cuban said doesn't make a ton of sense either.

What I do know is this:

1) The Mavs were clearly confused about something.

2) Part of a ref's job is to make sure that the teams are crystal clear about their calls and that there is absolutely no confusion going on.

So, based on that, I put the majority of the blame on the refs for not doing their job properly and clarifying their call to all parties involved.

It is also my personal opinion that the Warriors did nothing wrong there. This was between the refs and the Mavs. I cannot blame the Warriors for inbounding the ball and scoring.

[DonaldSanders]

Did Wood get the same explanation as Looney, though? When the ref is talking to Looney, Wood can be seen clapping in agreement. That's what players do when the refs give them the ball, not when they give them to their opponent. I am not sure that Wood got the right explanation there.

Why would the ref tell Looney one thing and immediately tell Wood something else, *while pointing with his thumb that it was Warrior ball*? This strains believability. Wood is clapping because he disagrees.

[HiRez]

Where I think the refs screwed up is if the PA announcer gets it wrong, the refs should ask for a correction if there is a timeout. At some level this is entertainment and there's no reason not to clarify for everyone -- TV, the fans, and the players. I'm not replaying this game but the refs should be setting the proper expectation for everyone.

It's not their job to listen to or correct the PA though. If you do that for a living, you probably condition yourself to tune out all the announcements and other noise anyway, I doubt they even heard it.

[Nate505]

Who knows? What Cuban said doesn't make a ton of sense either.

What I do know is this:

1) The Mavs were clearly confused about something.

2) Part of a ref's job is to make sure that the teams are crystal clear about their calls and that there is absolutely no confusion going on.

So, based on that, I put the majority of the blame on the refs for not doing their job properly and clarifying their call to all parties involved.

It is also my personal opinion that the Warriors did nothing wrong there. This was between the refs and the Mavs. I cannot blame the Warriors for inbounding the ball and scoring.

Unless the refs didn't signal to the Mavs play was resuming, I put no blame on them.

Regardless of who's ball they thought it was, they should have been over on that side of the court. If it's their ball, someone has to inbound it. If it's not their ball, someone has to defend. Yet they're all on their side of the court twiddling their thumbs.

So either they're twiddling their thumbs because they didn't realize the game was back underway, or because they had no clue that they will still on that side of the court. If it's the former but the game started, tough, pay attention. You're supposed to be professionals. If it's the latter, well, learn the rules of the game you get millions of dollars to play. Again, you're supposed to be professionals.

Now if the refs didn't signal them it was time to start, yes, at that point 100% of the blame goes to them.

[Dirk]

It was hard to miss I guess.

Looney and Green definitely play under different rules in the NBA.

[Nuntius]

Did Wood get the same explanation as Looney, though? When the ref is talking to Looney, Wood can be seen clapping in agreement. That's what players do when the refs give them the ball, not when they give them to their opponent. I am not sure that Wood got the right explanation there.

Why would the ref tell Looney one thing and immediately tell Wood something else, *while pointing with his thumb that it was Warrior ball*? This strains believability. Wood is clapping because he disagrees.

My assumption based on the clip posted earlier in the thread was that the ref didn't address Wood at all. I thought that Wood saw Looney's reaction, assumed that it was Mavs ball, clapped in agreement and walked away. All of that was based on the clip.

But now, I managed to find a replay of the game that showed what happened after the call was made and Wood does indeed talk to the ref. So, Wood did know that it was Warriors ball after all.

[Nuntius]

Who knows? What Cuban said doesn't make a ton of sense either.

What I do know is this:

1) The Mavs were clearly confused about something.

2) Part of a ref's job is to make sure that the teams are crystal clear about their calls and that there is absolutely no confusion going on.

So, based on that, I put the majority of the blame on the refs for not doing their job properly and clarifying their call to all parties involved.

It is also my personal opinion that the Warriors did nothing wrong there. This was between the refs and the Mavs. I cannot blame the Warriors for inbounding the ball and scoring.

Unless the refs didn't signal to the Mavs play was resuming, I put no blame on them.

Regardless of who's ball they thought it was, they should have been over on that side of the court. If it's their ball, someone has to inbound it. If it's not their ball, someone has to defend. Yet they're all on their side of the court twiddling their thumbs.

So either they're twiddling their thumbs because they didn't realize the game was back underway, or because they had no clue that they will still on that side of the court. If it's the former but the game started, tough, pay attention. You're supposed to be professionals. If it's the latter, well, learn the rules of the game you get millions of dollars to play. Again, you're supposed to be professionals.

Now if the refs didn't signal them it was time to start, yes, at that point 100% of the blame goes to them.

We can agree to disagree here, I guess. Communicating your calls is part of a ref's job description. Failing to do so is on them. Note here that I'm not saying that the Mavs hold absolutely zero blame here. They do. I simply believe that the majority of the blame falls to the refs (rest on the Mavs, none on the Warriors).

[DonaldSanders]

Looney and Green definitely play under different rules in the NBA.

Is that the same ruleset where Curry gets zero FTs and just gets grabbed/pushed off ball constantly?

The refs missed that Looney push but you have to wonder if all the flopping Luka does means they don't always believe when he falls if they didn't see it directly.

[Nuntius]

It was hard to miss I guess.

Looney and Green definitely play under different rules in the NBA.

Thank you for posting the last two clips. It is evident here that the ESPN crew was also confused about what.

Also, I just have to ask. Why was Looney sprinting away from the Mavs basket before the inbounds? If there was any player who 100% knew what the call was, it was Looney. What bamboozled him?

[thisiskoz]

Who knows? What Cuban said doesn't make a ton of sense either.

What I do know is this:

1) The Mavs were clearly confused about something.

2) Part of a ref's job is to make sure that the teams are crystal clear about their calls and that there is absolutely no confusion going on.

So, based on that, I put the majority of the blame on the refs for not doing their job properly and clarifying their call to all parties involved.

It is also my personal opinion that the Warriors did nothing wrong there. This was between the refs and the Mavs. I cannot blame the Warriors for inbounding the ball and scoring.

Unless the refs didn't signal to the Mavs play was resuming, I put no blame on them.

Regardless of who's ball they thought it was, they should have been over on that side of the court. If it's their ball, someone has to inbound it. If it's not their ball, someone has to defend. Yet they're all on their side of the court twiddling their thumbs.

So either they're twiddling their thumbs because they didn't realize the game was back underway, or because they had no clue that they will still on that side of the court. If it's the former but the game started, tough, pay attention. You're supposed to be professionals. If it's the latter, well, learn the rules of the game you get millions of dollars to play. Again, you're supposed to be professionals.

Now if the refs didn't signal them it was time to start, yes, at that point 100% of the blame goes to them.

Made this point in the other thread, but watch Jaden Hardy. He crosses half court to walk toward where the Mavs would be inbounding and then backpedals.

My thought is that's a reaction to seeing no gsw players cross half court to get into defensive position when that's what happens when it's your ball going the other way. Jaden thinks play is still stopped.

You can call it a lack of professionalism, but that just seems like you want to attack the players. The truth is that if you're expecting certain things to happen before you do something and those things don't happen, the common response is to pause and wait.

Definitely a mistake on the part of the Mavs, but seems like good officiating would ensure that everyone is clear on what's going on and would realize when that's not the case.

[Dirk]

Looney and Green definitely play under different rules in the NBA.

Is that the same ruleset where Curry gets zero FTs and just gets grabbed/pushed off ball constantly?

The refs missed that Looney push but you have to wonder if all the flopping Luka does means they don't always believe when he falls if they didn't see it directly.

Luka flopping, you mean getting elbowed in the face... by Looney?

[Nate505]

Made this point in the other thread, but watch Jaden Hardy. He crosses half court to walk toward where the Mavs would be inbounding and then backpedals.

My thought is that's a reaction to seeing no gsw players cross half court to get into defensive position when that's what happens when it's your ball going the other way. Jaden thinks play is still stopped.

You can call it a lack of professionalism, but that just seems like you want to attack the players. The truth is that if you're expecting certain things to happen before you do something and those things don't happen, the common response is to pause and wait.

Definitely a mistake on the part of the Mavs, but seems like good officiating would ensure that everyone is clear on what's going on and would realize when that's not the case.

He can think the play is stopped all he wants, but if the ref crew signaled that the play had started, I can't see why he'd think that.

I'm just not sure why it's on the refs to ensure that everyone is clear on what's going on, unless we want games to take 5 hours. Once the whistle blew for play to resume, if the Mavs really thought the ball was theirs, someone should have been walking over to inbound it. And nobody was even close to it. Hardy was the closest, but he actually starts backing up when the ref is doing his usual "bounce the ball and hand the ball to the inbounder" thing. It seems like if you think it's your ball you start to go over there to inbound it, if that was his job in the situation.

You can call it attacking the players if you want, but they're the ones who are supposed to know what's going on out there.

[Nuntius]

I'm just not sure why it's on the refs to ensure that everyone is clear on what's going on, unless we want games to take 5 hours.

Because it literally is part of their job.

[DonaldSanders]

Looney and Green definitely play under different rules in the NBA.

Is that the same ruleset where Curry gets zero FTs and just gets grabbed/pushed off ball constantly?

The refs missed that Looney push but you have to wonder if all the flopping Luka does means they don't always believe when he falls if they didn't see it directly.

Luka flopping, you mean getting elbowed in the face... by Looney?

I'm not saying the refs didn't miss calls, they missed some Looney committed. They also certainly missed many committed on Curry and one on Anthony Lamb where he's knocked to the ground resulting in 3 points for the Mavs.

What I am saying is sometimes serial floppers get boy who cried wolf reactions from refs. If the ref didn't get a good look of what Looney did, they won't be inclined to believe Luka was fouled because of prior flops + reputation as a flopper/grifter.

[Nate505]

I'm just not sure why it's on the refs to ensure that everyone is clear on what's going on, unless we want games to take 5 hours.

Because it literally is part of their job.

I don't believe it is literally part of their job to see if they're good on every play, and I hope it isn't. At some point the players should know the basic rules of the game.