PG - Medíocre

[burlydee]

The Bulls best line ups have consistently been Vuc-Derozan-Lavine-Caruso-PG. Billy just needs to bite the bullet and start the game like that. The problem is this puts a lot of pressure on Caruso to guard power forwards. Solution - make Zach or Derozan guard power forwards and sub in Craig for the Zion like matchups. But the Bulls have to get Caruso on the floor to start games and with the mid-3 if they want to pretend to be serious about winning games.

excuse my ignorance, but who is PG? Maybe PW?

Just point guard. Like, any point guard. Lonzo Ball was the best, somehow Beverly was 2nd best and Coby/Carter are 3rd. But basically the Bulls have played their best when they've played Derozan and Lavine at the 4 and 3 with Caruso and another point guard. I.e. the bulls have played their best when they've been the least reliant on the Bulls mid-3 as playmakers.

[2weekswithpay]

Of course it wouldn’t. I’m talking about way more than just his 3s. He would increase our whole defense much like Caruso, get us easier shots through steals, and limit 3s and defensive breakdowns. His effort would raise the whole effort of our team much like Caruso.

Replacing DDR’s 3 3s per game with Allen’s 8 would help too. 5 contested midrange shots with 3s would help.

Allen isn't a good defender though, and playing better defense than Derozan isn't a high bar to clear. He tries but good teams exploit his defensive deficiencies all the time. The Bulls are a bad team with a bad offense so they can't exploit him like other teams.

Sure the team will get more effort on defense but they'll lose playmaking and shot creation which are needed for shooters like Allen to contribute.

I agree in theory.

The issue is DDR has much less gravity than you think. He doesn’t draw double teams anymore. He takes contested mid range shots and doesn’t get FTs, few makes, and he doesn’t create shots for others.

DDR also slows down the offense and team.

What we would lose in gravity we would gain in pace, 3s, ball movement, and easier baskets in transition.

I agree with all of this but it won't make the Bulls a better team.

Derozan still shoots 7 FTs per game and gets to the line more than anyone else on the team. Without him, we might be the worst time in the NBA at getting to the line.

Ball movement doesn't equal good offense. You still need a player that can pressure and break down the defense consistently. The Bulls don't have that now and won't have it with Derozan gone.

[SfBull]

Both teams tried to lose down the stretch, but we were a bit better at that task. We played hard, forced them into some tough shots and turnovers, but we struggled on offense ourselves. Can't say that I thought much of Phoenix either. I know it's missing Booker but that team looks thin to me, and Beal and Durant are getting old.

Suns aren't going anywhere.

[weneeda2guard]

Some posters I don't even think are watching the games I think they box score watching waiting to see if it's a loss then coming in to spew the rebuild rhetoric smh it's making this place a little unenjoyable smh

Truth is the team actually played pretty good last night. This wasn't some scrub team they were playing this is a team the Suns who have championship aspirations. And we went toe to toe with them and if not for a couple bad turnovers from lavine and especially vuc we would have beat them after being down double digits to them twice.

I'm just saying it's some games to really be down on the team, this not one of them as they showed a lot of fight and if not for a couple bad mistakes would have won it.

[madvillian]

Some posters I don't even think are watching the games I think they box score watching waiting to see if it's a loss then coming in to spew the rebuild rhetoric smh it's making this place a little unenjoyable smh

Truth is the team actually played pretty good last night. This wasn't some scrub team they were playing this is a team the Suns who have championship aspirations. And we went toe to toe with them and if not for a couple bad turnovers from lavine and especially vuc we would have beat them after being down double digits to them twice.

I'm just saying it's some games to really be down on the team, this not one of them as they showed a lot of fight and if not for a couple bad mistakes would have won it.

Eh, the suns are not good right now. Not without Booker and a banged up Beal and an aged Durant learning to play with Nurkic.

We are what are record says we are: 3-6. .333 winning percentage. I expect we'll be around 25-32 by the New Year and will finish around 35-47 by spring.

Unless we just blow it up, which doesn't seem likely.

[Infinity2152]

Some posters I don't even think are watching the games I think they box score watching waiting to see if it's a loss then coming in to spew the rebuild rhetoric smh it's making this place a little unenjoyable smh

Truth is the team actually played pretty good last night. This wasn't some scrub team they were playing this is a team the Suns who have championship aspirations. And we went toe to toe with them and if not for a couple bad turnovers from lavine and especially vuc we would have beat them after being down double digits to them twice.

I'm just saying it's some games to really be down on the team, this not one of them as they showed a lot of fight and if not for a couple bad mistakes would have won it.

Great to see some positivity. Thought our guys played hard, they could have given up early, and fought hard the whole game and overtime. Nurkic played outstanding, lowkey, and Grayson Allen had a career shooting night. KD is probably the most efficient scorer in the league, and damn near had a triple double. Pat shot more freely, just wasn't hitting. Bulls will probably lose rebounding most nights, you realize Torrey Craig is 6'5", right? Watching Coby last night, he may end up way better than just average starter, he showed some real strengths on both ends, toughness and hustle. Was proud of the effort, watched till the end, if you paid for a ticket, don't think you'd feel the team ripped you off, even if they did lose. And Caruso!!

[Stratmaster]

So here's the thing. Every "backup" lineup had one, often 2, of the big 3 on the court with them.

It's not that the big 3 suck. It is that the big 3 can't coexist on the floor at the same time.

A lot of analysts said this would happen when the Bulls got Demar. They were correct.

The Bulls were getting scored on at will. Demar out. Caruso in. Everything changed for the better. That is 70% Caruso and 30% subtraction of Demar.

But I'm not picking on Demar. There was a very positive stretch when Demar was in, and Lavine was out.

While it is a poorly constructed roster, there are some pretty simple things Billy could do.

First, the Bulls are hell-bent on "getting players involved" early. Last night, first possession for Demar. He gets stopped and passes to Coby, who sets up Vuc. I believe the next 4 possessions were designed for Vuc (3) and Craig (1). Same thing they used to do with Williams. Zach didn't take a shot for the first 5.5 minutes.

Meanwhile, the Sun's are running offense, finding whoever the open man is, and scoring at will.

2nd, it is obvious Caruso needs to be starting to avoid these early holes. Frankly, if you're just going to have Lavine stand in the corner (on a team where no one has the court vision to get the ball to him when he is open), from an offense perspective may as well bring him off the bench. OR, if you want to avoid the horrible defense we always see to open the game, bring Demar off the bench.

I, of course, am in the bring DDR off the bench camp. Start the game playing up-tempo and get some energy and blood flowing. But one or the other needs to happen.

Finally, start Carter instead of Coby so Coby/Demar or Coby/Lavine come in to replace the 2 main scorers coming out.

Carter/Lavine/Caruso/Craig/ Vuc is a lineup that has plenty of scoring, can run the floor, and can keep teams from scoring at will early.

Unfortunately, Billy coaches scared. It will never happen.

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[Stratmaster]

I dunno...I thought it was a good game. Outside of the extreme hot and cold runs, the team played well. Defense was solid. Effort was commendable. I was entertained.

Had a shot to win it against a team better than us and couldn't do it. Not surprised.

Lots of talk about the Mid-3. Look, we know they're mid, right? So let's look at the team as a whole. Stop expecting guys to elevate a team when they have proven their not good enough to do it. Just a wait to be pissed off at something.

This team might actually look better if they got ANYTHING out of the 4 spot.

Yeah. Craig>Williams but still not a quality starting PF.

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[Stratmaster]

TBH we are a good playoff caliber team.. i truly believe that and as a fan, I would love to continue believing that we are a capable team. We can still turn this around BUT.. now is the time to fire Billy. He needs to go!

Amen

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[Stratmaster]

Lavine had almost a triple double, 22/8/8 on 54%/50% shooting. In an OT game everyone could have played a bit better, but he's pretty low on my blame list tonight. He was the setting up Vuc really well.

Yep. Had some solid assists and rebounds in q4 and OT

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[Infinity2152]

Some posters I don't even think are watching the games I think they box score watching waiting to see if it's a loss then coming in to spew the rebuild rhetoric smh it's making this place a little unenjoyable smh

Truth is the team actually played pretty good last night. This wasn't some scrub team they were playing this is a team the Suns who have championship aspirations. And we went toe to toe with them and if not for a couple bad turnovers from lavine and especially vuc we would have beat them after being down double digits to them twice.

I'm just saying it's some games to really be down on the team, this not one of them as they showed a lot of fight and if not for a couple bad mistakes would have won it.

Eh, the suns are not good right now. Not without Booker and a banged up Beal and an aged Durant learning to play with Nurkic.

We are what are record says we are: 3-6. .333 winning percentage. I expect we'll be around 25-32 by the New Year and will finish around 35-47 by spring.

Unless we just blow it up, which doesn't seem likely.

The Suns are not good because Booker is out? There's a starter not playing on our team for the whole season named Lonzo Ball. Yet the Bulls never get to use that excuse, injured starter. Aged KD putting 25 pts, 7 rbs, 9 assts on ridiculous shooting is still better than 98% of the league overall. Grayson Allen put up a performance way better than Beal, who played 24 minutes, so banged up Beal seems to mean nothing. And they have Eric Gordon to play big minutes when Beal or Booker are down. They're still considered a top contender for the title on every gambling site, but they're not a good team?

Bulls are the only team that doesn't get a pass for losing a starter for the whole season. Bucks got a pass missing Middleton, and they had Jrue and Giannis. Warriors got a pass when Klay got hurt. Those teams have superior 1A players, and still got passes. Didn't the Warriors get a lottery pick? Not trying to hear how long Ball's injury has been, he's still on our cap, holding us from replacing him.

On another note, watching last night, Zach needs to drive more. He may not be the best passer and needs to tighten his grip, don't think he has big hands. But he and Coby White are the only ones who pressure the defense, Demar settles for jumpers out of most of his isos, Lavine can throw a ton of open passes if they focus on that, he's pretty good at driving. And if he focuses on finishing, you can tell sometimes he's more worried about drawing the foul than scoring, lol.

[Stratmaster]

How many coaches and rosters ago did we see a younger Bulls team that would fall way behind early then scratch and claw their way back only to find that 1st quarter 12,15, 20 point deficit too much to overcome? This starting 5 are not kids, Coby is year 5, Craig is a veteran they're the youngest but with no excuses.

Watch the pre game shows and see when Kendall and Will say that when Zach gets off to a fast start the whole team plays to a higher level. Where was Zach the first 8 minutes of the game, basically doing nothing. The bench came in and went harder on defense, forced turnovers and scored off those turnovers.

I know Zach and Demar are the two big stars, also the two biggest most fragile egos. At the end of regulation they were up by 2 with like 12 seconds left and needed a stop defensively. The Suns had their shooters on the floor. The smart basketball play, but hurtful to the egos of the big two, was to put Williams and Dosunmu in the game for defense to chase and trap the shooters and rebound. Couldn't do it.

I think the moves need to be made. The Bulls big 3 are veterans who just don't play like true veterans, Vuc can have some incredible 1st halves but gets ignored in the second half. Zach can really fill it yo for a quarter, Demar is able to score at will in the 4th quarter. But it just seems to come down to none of them are willing to take 2 steps back when the either of the other guys gets hot, and none of the three seem to be able to elevate the game of the other 2 guys on the floor who most times amount to decoys.

Every game now the evidence is, it's time to shuffle the deck and move on

Zach didn't take a shot for the first 5.5 minutes. Billy was busy running plays to "get others involved"

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[Stratmaster]

Lavine had almost a triple double, 22/8/8 on 54%/50% shooting. In an OT game everyone could have played a bit better, but he's pretty low on my blame list tonight. He was the setting up Vuc really well.

Zach was responsible for at least 6 wide open 3s.

He also had two costly turnovers in the last two mins.

He is only a winning player if he plays as a shooter but Billy won’t run him off any screens and when Zach does get the ball he dribbled into a tough contested 3 instead of shooting the open/lightly contested 3.

Lavine had 1 turnover in q4 and OT (:45 Q4). I just triple checked it.

What about Demar's turnover at 1:11 of q4?

Coby at 4:48 of the OT.

Coby again at 1:46 of OT

Caruso had 1 down the stretch also.

But what you saw as a negative was 8 assist, 8 rebounds, 22 points on 13 shots Zach Lavine.





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[LateNight]

Lavine had almost a triple double, 22/8/8 on 54%/50% shooting. In an OT game everyone could have played a bit better, but he's pretty low on my blame list tonight. He was the setting up Vuc really well.

Zach was responsible for at least 6 wide open 3s.

He also had two costly turnovers in the last two mins.

He is only a winning player if he plays as a shooter but Billy won’t run him off any screens and when Zach does get the ball he dribbled into a tough contested 3 instead of shooting the open/lightly contested 3.

Lavine had 1 turnover in q4 and OT (:45 Q4). I just triple checked it.

What about Demar's turnover at 1:11 of q4?

Coby at 4:48 of the OT.

Coby again at 1:46 of OT

Caruso had 1 down the stretch also.

But what you saw as a negative was 8 assist, 8 rebounds, 22 points on 13 shots Zach Lavine.





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Are those other guys making $40m a year?

Also, it’s not just the turnovers, it’s the terrible shot selection

[Stratmaster]

Zach was responsible for at least 6 wide open 3s.

He also had two costly turnovers in the last two mins.

He is only a winning player if he plays as a shooter but Billy won’t run him off any screens and when Zach does get the ball he dribbled into a tough contested 3 instead of shooting the open/lightly contested 3.

Lavine had 1 turnover in q4 and OT (:45 Q4). I just triple checked it.

What about Demar's turnover at 1:11 of q4?

Coby at 4:48 of the OT.

Coby again at 1:46 of OT

Caruso had 1 down the stretch also.

But what you saw as a negative was 8 assist, 8 rebounds, 22 points on 13 shots Zach Lavine.





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Are those other guys making $40m a year?

Also, it’s not just the turnovers, it’s the terrible shot selection

This is an old, tired debate. Players who have the ball in their hands the most turn the ball over the most. I've documented it season after season comparing him to other similar usage and similar scoring players.

As far as his "bad shots", same thing. In fact, he doesn't take enough 3's.

The Sun's were collapsing 3 defenders on Lavine every time he dribbled past the 3 point line. Why do you think they did that? That's why he makes the big bucks.

Lavine is far from perfect and he makes some head scratching plays. But he is the scapegoat every game. It's just stupid.

The Bulls played pretty well after the opening debacle in q1. Every single player contributed, Zach probably more than anyone other than Caruso.

Every player also had bad plays down the stretch, including Caruso.

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[madvillian]

Some posters I don't even think are watching the games I think they box score watching waiting to see if it's a loss then coming in to spew the rebuild rhetoric smh it's making this place a little unenjoyable smh

Truth is the team actually played pretty good last night. This wasn't some scrub team they were playing this is a team the Suns who have championship aspirations. And we went toe to toe with them and if not for a couple bad turnovers from lavine and especially vuc we would have beat them after being down double digits to them twice.

I'm just saying it's some games to really be down on the team, this not one of them as they showed a lot of fight and if not for a couple bad mistakes would have won it.

Eh, the suns are not good right now. Not without Booker and a banged up Beal and an aged Durant learning to play with Nurkic.

We are what are record says we are: 3-6. .333 winning percentage. I expect we'll be around 25-32 by the New Year and will finish around 35-47 by spring.

Unless we just blow it up, which doesn't seem likely.

The Suns are not good because Booker is out? There's a starter not playing on our team for the whole season named Lonzo Ball. Yet the Bulls never get to use that excuse, injured starter. Aged KD putting 25 pts, 7 rbs, 9 assts on ridiculous shooting is still better than 98% of the league overall. Grayson Allen put up a performance way better than Beal, who played 24 minutes, so banged up Beal seems to mean nothing. And they have Eric Gordon to play big minutes when Beal or Booker are down. They're still considered a top contender for the title on every gambling site, but they're not a good team?

Bulls are the only team that doesn't get a pass for losing a starter for the whole season. Bucks got a pass missing Middleton, and they had Jrue and Giannis. Warriors got a pass when Klay got hurt. Those teams have superior 1A players, and still got passes. Didn't the Warriors get a lottery pick? Not trying to hear how long Ball's injury has been, he's still on our cap, holding us from replacing him.

On another note, watching last night, Zach needs to drive more. He may not be the best passer and needs to tighten his grip, don't think he has big hands. But he and Coby White are the only ones who pressure the defense, Demar settles for jumpers out of most of his isos, Lavine can throw a ton of open passes if they focus on that, he's pretty good at driving. And if he focuses on finishing, you can tell sometimes he's more worried about drawing the foul than scoring, lol.

They entered the game 3-4 and I watched two of those losses pretty much in full as I was watching my fantasy players. Argue whatever you want but objectively they are not good right now otherwise they wouldn't be 4-4. We're 3-6, we are objectively not good, we aren't even mediocre.

I have no idea how you could watch these first 9 games, see absolutely nothing from Pat, nothing really from Craig, see Lavine as the same guy, nice player not a top 25 guy, see a declining Vuc and Demar and go "oh yea, this is totally better than the 40 win squad from last year".

Like it's not. It's probably 5 or so games worse. We're 3-6! Season is basically 10% over and we're on pace for 28 wins!

[weneeda2guard]

Some posters I don't even think are watching the games I think they box score watching waiting to see if it's a loss then coming in to spew the rebuild rhetoric smh it's making this place a little unenjoyable smh

Truth is the team actually played pretty good last night. This wasn't some scrub team they were playing this is a team the Suns who have championship aspirations. And we went toe to toe with them and if not for a couple bad turnovers from lavine and especially vuc we would have beat them after being down double digits to them twice.

I'm just saying it's some games to really be down on the team, this not one of them as they showed a lot of fight and if not for a couple bad mistakes would have won it.

Great to see some positivity. Thought our guys played hard, they could have given up early, and fought hard the whole game and overtime. Nurkic played outstanding, lowkey, and Grayson Allen had a career shooting night. KD is probably the most efficient scorer in the league, and damn near had a triple double. Pat shot more freely, just wasn't hitting. Bulls will probably lose rebounding most nights, you realize Torrey Craig is 6'5", right? Watching Coby last night, he may end up way better than just average starter, he showed some real strengths on both ends, toughness and hustle. Was proud of the effort, watched till the end, if you paid for a ticket, don't think you'd feel the team ripped you off, even if they did lose. And Caruso!!

Nothing wrong with criticism to the team when they look bad, they actually didn't look bad last night. They just made some stupid mistakes down the stretch. That seems to happen often with them unfortunately but they put up a great fight overall. They could have laid down when they got down 18 and down double digits again in the 3rd but they got back into it and it was honestly a very exciting game.

Just some posters are so invested in their blow it up rants they become disingenuous with their analysis of the game. Last night wasn't a game to call them out for being trash.

[madvillian]

Some posters I don't even think are watching the games I think they box score watching waiting to see if it's a loss then coming in to spew the rebuild rhetoric smh it's making this place a little unenjoyable smh

Truth is the team actually played pretty good last night. This wasn't some scrub team they were playing this is a team the Suns who have championship aspirations. And we went toe to toe with them and if not for a couple bad turnovers from lavine and especially vuc we would have beat them after being down double digits to them twice.

I'm just saying it's some games to really be down on the team, this not one of them as they showed a lot of fight and if not for a couple bad mistakes would have won it.

Great to see some positivity. Thought our guys played hard, they could have given up early, and fought hard the whole game and overtime. Nurkic played outstanding, lowkey, and Grayson Allen had a career shooting night. KD is probably the most efficient scorer in the league, and damn near had a triple double. Pat shot more freely, just wasn't hitting. Bulls will probably lose rebounding most nights, you realize Torrey Craig is 6'5", right? Watching Coby last night, he may end up way better than just average starter, he showed some real strengths on both ends, toughness and hustle. Was proud of the effort, watched till the end, if you paid for a ticket, don't think you'd feel the team ripped you off, even if they did lose. And Caruso!!

Nothing wrong with criticism to the team when they look bad, they actually didn't look bad last night. They just made some stupid mistakes down the stretch. That seems to happen often with them unfortunately but they put up a great fight overall. They could have laid down when they got down 18 and down double digits again in the 3rd but they got back into it and it was honestly a very exciting game.

Just some posters are so invested in their blow it up rants they become disingenuous with their analysis of the game. Last night wasn't a game to call them out for being trash.

I mean are you calling going 3-6 after a home loss to a previously 3-4 Suns squad (missing their best player) a moral victory?

If you are, ok, but moral victories aren't what we're after via "continuity".

[kodo]

Net Ratings for the 1 game:

Starters: White/Lavine/DDR/Craig/Vuc: -77.2

Starters w/ Caruso sub: White/Caruso/Lavine/Derozan/Vuc: +24.1
Bench Mob + DDR: Carter/Caruso/DDR/PWill/Andre: +85.7
Starters w/ Caruso replacing DDR: +2.2
Ayo lineup: Ayo / Carter / DDR / PWill / Vuc: +38.1

It's almost impossible to find a lineup that doesn't work, and we choose to start and get into a -18 deficit with the one lineup that can't play basketball together.

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[2weekswithpay]

Some posters I don't even think are watching the games I think they box score watching waiting to see if it's a loss then coming in to spew the rebuild rhetoric smh it's making this place a little unenjoyable smh

Truth is the team actually played pretty good last night. This wasn't some scrub team they were playing this is a team the Suns who have championship aspirations. And we went toe to toe with them and if not for a couple bad turnovers from lavine and especially vuc we would have beat them after being down double digits to them twice.

I'm just saying it's some games to really be down on the team, this not one of them as they showed a lot of fight and if not for a couple bad mistakes would have won it.

Eh, the suns are not good right now. Not without Booker and a banged up Beal and an aged Durant learning to play with Nurkic.

We are what are record says we are: 3-6. .333 winning percentage. I expect we'll be around 25-32 by the New Year and will finish around 35-47 by spring.

Unless we just blow it up, which doesn't seem likely.

The Suns are not good because Booker is out? There's a starter not playing on our team for the whole season named Lonzo Ball. Yet the Bulls never get to use that excuse, injured starter. Aged KD putting 25 pts, 7 rbs, 9 assts on ridiculous shooting is still better than 98% of the league overall. Grayson Allen put up a performance way better than Beal, who played 24 minutes, so banged up Beal seems to mean nothing. And they have Eric Gordon to play big minutes when Beal or Booker are down. They're still considered a top contender for the title on every gambling site, but they're not a good team?

Bulls are the only team that doesn't get a pass for losing a starter for the whole season. Bucks got a pass missing Middleton, and they had Jrue and Giannis. Warriors got a pass when Klay got hurt. Those teams have superior 1A players, and still got passes. Didn't the Warriors get a lottery pick? Not trying to hear how long Ball's injury has been, he's still on our cap, holding us from replacing him.

On another note, watching last night, Zach needs to drive more. He may not be the best passer and needs to tighten his grip, don't think he has big hands. But he and Coby White are the only ones who pressure the defense, Demar settles for jumpers out of most of his isos, Lavine can throw a ton of open passes if they focus on that, he's pretty good at driving. And if he focuses on finishing, you can tell sometimes he's more worried about drawing the foul than scoring, lol.

The Bulls don't get a pass because the 3 all-stars are still on the court. The Bucks didn't have Lopez for almost an entire season and still won 51 games. Middleton was injured, missed over half the season, and the Bucks had a league-best 58 wins. The Nuggets were missing Murray and Porter and still made the playoffs.

The Bulls don't get any excuses because nobody feels like they deserve any. Losing Lonzo sucks but if Vuc/Zach/DDR aren't good enough to win games without him then there was no point in putting this team together.