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Tottery wrote:1. Magic
2. Thomas
3. Stockton
4. Nash
5. Kidd

I can't include Oscar or Frazier due to not watching them and being outside the modern era. I don't view Curry as a PG. It's just the title they gave him because titles are required.

JustBuzzin wrote:

canada_dry wrote:

JustBuzzin wrote:In order for him to choke he has to have played in meaningful games.

He was never in that position.

I'm not rewarding players who haven't at least went to the Finals in their career. Kidd is also better than Nash.

So you can't choke in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs. Good to know.

I.e when cp3 choked with the clippers multiple times and isiah turned the ball over to bird, clear moments of coming up small in their own conference play.

You're a character.



Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Who mentioned anything about CP3 and Isiah still has 2 championships.

I get it you're sticking up for your Canada guy, but Nash is not better than Isiah.

Optms wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:

CobraCommander wrote:Nash while great was definitely the product of a system...and he ran that system perfectly-

I knew someone would bring this up. No, Nash was not the product of a system. The main feature of the MDA offense was to give the ball to your best creator and let them create based on the strengths and weaknesses of their game. This is why Nash PnR'd everyone to death and why Harden ran a bunch of ISOs.

I think you could argue that Stockton was somewhat a product of Jerry Sloan's flex cut offense. Scottie Pippen was somewhat a product of the triangle as a big wing who could handle, pass, and cut within a frameowrk. Both these players were great obviously, but their respective systems had built in reads for them to follow.

MDA's "system" was really just spreading the floor and empowering his best player such that the best player became the system.

Nash was the product of D'Antoni's system though. We're talking about the only player in league history who went from a second tier All-star to winning MVP's once he turned 30. If that isn't a dead give away, I don't know what is. Nash also reverted to just a role player once he went to Lakers and he wasn't the focused of the team's offense.

SpreeS wrote:This forum already has top100 2023 list.

10 Magic
11 Curry
14 West
15 Oscar
20 Paul
24 Nash
29 Harden
33 Stockton
35 Frazier
38 Kidd
46 Westbrook

CobraCommander wrote:

WillyJakkz wrote:Unnecessary thread.

We all absolutely know Isaiah Thomas is either 2nd 3rd or at worse 4th on the GOAT PG List.

Should retitle it 5th GOAT PG.

People saw the list and thought the same thing -

NO IT ?

Either Michael Jordan started the thread or someone too young to have saw IT -

But if you saw him- you know -

It’s funny but we give me credit to stats and less value to manufacturering wins that turn into rings-

The fact that IT has 2 rings as the best player on a championship team but is left off for guys that got more assist or points is silly.

Zeke actually beat MJ and MJ took it personally- cause IT didn’t back down or bow down to anyone. zeke knew who mj,
Bird, and Magic were and would not back down period

NZB2323 wrote:So I guess we're counting Jerry West and James Harden as shooting guards?

I think IT is overrated. Yes, he beat Larry, Magic, and Jordan in the playoffs. Billups is the only player who has a winning record against Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron. Billups beat Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, Wade, Miller, Iverson, Chris Paul, and Dirk in the playoffs.

They both have 1 finals MVP. IT came very close to only having 1 ring and Billups came very close to having 2.

89 Thomas: 18, 8, and 4, 48.1 TS%, 18.6 PER
90 Thomas: 21, 8, and 6, 56 TS%, 21 PER
97 Stockton: 16, 10, and 65.6 TS%, 22.1 PER
04 Bullups: 16, 6, and 3, 54.6 TS% 18.8 PER
08 Paul: 24, 11, and 5, 56.5 TS%, 30.7 PER
18 Paul: 21, 6, and 6, 22.8 TS%, 22.8 PER

Chris Paul hasn't won a ring, but he beat Dirk, Duncan, Lebron, Curry, Butler, and Jokic in playoff series.

I think this has to be Chris Paul for me. He's a better defender than Steve Nash. He's a better scorer than Stockton, Payton, and Kidd. He's a better passer than Payton. He's better at everything than Isiah.

Most people don't remember this, but the 2014 Spurs had one of the best playoff runs of all time but then lost in the first round next year to a game-winner Chris Paul hit over Tim Duncan.

Watch on YouTube

At age 22 he outplayed Dirk in a playoff series. At age 32 he took the Curry/Klay/Durant/Dray Warriors to game 7. At age 35 he took a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 11 years to the Finals. Yes, he had some mistakes in crunch time, like Zeke's pass to the Celtics.

Gary Payton and Jason Kidd won rings as role players later in their careers. Jason Kidd joined a team that won 26 games and took them to the finals twice, only to fall to Shaq/Kobe and Tim Duncan and the Spurs. Gary Payton ran into the 96 Bulls, who were a much better team than the 1990 Bulls. 72-10 and a +13.4 point differential vs. 55 wins and a +3.3 point differential. Stockton ran into the 97 Bulls who won 69 games and had a +12.0 point differential. Nash maybe would have won in 07 if not for the Amare suspension. If Rodman gets suspended for the Pistons, that could have cost IT a ring.

IT also doesn't have longevity.

All-NBA teams:
Chris Paul: 11
Stockton: 11
Payton: 9
Nash: 7
Kidd: 6
Isiah Thomas: 5

All-defensive teams:
Chris Paul: 9
Kidd: 9
Payton: 9
Stockton: 5
Isiah Thomas: 0
Steve Nash: 0

When it comes to stats Isiah Thomas is at the bottom of the lists.

Assists:
1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. CP3
5. Nash
10. Isiah Thomas
11. Gary Payton

Points:
42. CP3
43. Payton
56. Stockton
72. Isiah Thomas
91. Kidd
94. Nash

Steals:
1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. CP3
5. Gary Payton
18. Isiah Thomas
242. Steve Nash

VORP:
3. Stockton
6. CP3
20. Kidd
27. Gary Payton
40. Nash
58. Isiah Thomas

BPM:
6. CP3
8. Stockton
40. Jason Kidd
54. Gary Payton
68. Steve Nash
87. Isiah Thomas

Win Shares:
6. Stockton
7. CP3
30. Gary Payton
35. Jason Kidd
42. Steve Nash
166. Isiah Thomas

Tottery wrote:1. Magic
2. Thomas
3. Stockton
4. Nash
5. Kidd

I can't include Oscar or Frazier due to not watching them and being outside the modern era. I don't view Curry as a PG. It's just the title they gave him because titles are required.

DimesandKnicks wrote:

NZB2323 wrote:So I guess we're counting Jerry West and James Harden as shooting guards?

I think IT is overrated. Yes, he beat Larry, Magic, and Jordan in the playoffs. Billups is the only player who has a winning record against Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron. Billups beat Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, Wade, Miller, Iverson, Chris Paul, and Dirk in the playoffs.

They both have 1 finals MVP. IT came very close to only having 1 ring and Billups came very close to having 2.

89 Thomas: 18, 8, and 4, 48.1 TS%, 18.6 PER
90 Thomas: 21, 8, and 6, 56 TS%, 21 PER
97 Stockton: 16, 10, and 65.6 TS%, 22.1 PER
04 Bullups: 16, 6, and 3, 54.6 TS% 18.8 PER
08 Paul: 24, 11, and 5, 56.5 TS%, 30.7 PER
18 Paul: 21, 6, and 6, 22.8 TS%, 22.8 PER

Chris Paul hasn't won a ring, but he beat Dirk, Duncan, Lebron, Curry, Butler, and Jokic in playoff series.

I think this has to be Chris Paul for me. He's a better defender than Steve Nash. He's a better scorer than Stockton, Payton, and Kidd. He's a better passer than Payton. He's better at everything than Isiah.

Most people don't remember this, but the 2014 Spurs had one of the best playoff runs of all time but then lost in the first round next year to a game-winner Chris Paul hit over Tim Duncan.

Watch on YouTube

At age 22 he outplayed Dirk in a playoff series. At age 32 he took the Curry/Klay/Durant/Dray Warriors to game 7. At age 35 he took a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 11 years to the Finals. Yes, he had some mistakes in crunch time, like Zeke's pass to the Celtics.

Gary Payton and Jason Kidd won rings as role players later in their careers. Jason Kidd joined a team that won 26 games and took them to the finals twice, only to fall to Shaq/Kobe and Tim Duncan and the Spurs. Gary Payton ran into the 96 Bulls, who were a much better team than the 1990 Bulls. 72-10 and a +13.4 point differential vs. 55 wins and a +3.3 point differential. Stockton ran into the 97 Bulls who won 69 games and had a +12.0 point differential. Nash maybe would have won in 07 if not for the Amare suspension. If Rodman gets suspended for the Pistons, that could have cost IT a ring.

IT also doesn't have longevity.

All-NBA teams:
Chris Paul: 11
Stockton: 11
Payton: 9
Nash: 7
Kidd: 6
Isiah Thomas: 5

All-defensive teams:
Chris Paul: 9
Kidd: 9
Payton: 9
Stockton: 5
Isiah Thomas: 0
Steve Nash: 0

When it comes to stats Isiah Thomas is at the bottom of the lists.

Assists:
1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. CP3
5. Nash
10. Isiah Thomas
11. Gary Payton

Points:
42. CP3
43. Payton
56. Stockton
72. Isiah Thomas
91. Kidd
94. Nash

Steals:
1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. CP3
5. Gary Payton
18. Isiah Thomas
242. Steve Nash

VORP:
3. Stockton
6. CP3
20. Kidd
27. Gary Payton
40. Nash
58. Isiah Thomas

BPM:
6. CP3
8. Stockton
40. Jason Kidd
54. Gary Payton
68. Steve Nash
87. Isiah Thomas

Win Shares:
6. Stockton
7. CP3
30. Gary Payton
35. Jason Kidd
42. Steve Nash
166. Isiah Thomas

He’s at the bottom of the list because he only played like ten seasons.

Tottery wrote:

Optms wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:I knew someone would bring this up. No, Nash was not the product of a system. The main feature of the MDA offense was to give the ball to your best creator and let them create based on the strengths and weaknesses of their game. This is why Nash PnR'd everyone to death and why Harden ran a bunch of ISOs.

I think you could argue that Stockton was somewhat a product of Jerry Sloan's flex cut offense. Scottie Pippen was somewhat a product of the triangle as a big wing who could handle, pass, and cut within a frameowrk. Both these players were great obviously, but their respective systems had built in reads for them to follow.

MDA's "system" was really just spreading the floor and empowering his best player such that the best player became the system.

Nash was the product of D'Antoni's system though. We're talking about the only player in league history who went from a second tier All-star to winning MVP's once he turned 30. If that isn't a dead give away, I don't know what is. Nash also reverted to just a role player once he went to Lakers and he wasn't the focused of the team's offense.

As the person in your avatar would say, "Nash was the system." The majority of the players were there the prior season and D'Antoni took over as head coach. Finished with one of the worst records in the league. Nash was injected and everything changed. People also forget that hand checking was completely removed before Nash's first season in Phoenix. That allowed him to roam a lot more freely and plenty of players benefitted from it.

Nash's best days were behind him when he arrived in LA. He was 38 and his back was done. Not sure why that was brought up.

NZB2323 wrote:

DimesandKnicks wrote:

NZB2323 wrote:So I guess we're counting Jerry West and James Harden as shooting guards?

I think IT is overrated. Yes, he beat Larry, Magic, and Jordan in the playoffs. Billups is the only player who has a winning record against Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron. Billups beat Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, Wade, Miller, Iverson, Chris Paul, and Dirk in the playoffs.

They both have 1 finals MVP. IT came very close to only having 1 ring and Billups came very close to having 2.

89 Thomas: 18, 8, and 4, 48.1 TS%, 18.6 PER
90 Thomas: 21, 8, and 6, 56 TS%, 21 PER
97 Stockton: 16, 10, and 65.6 TS%, 22.1 PER
04 Bullups: 16, 6, and 3, 54.6 TS% 18.8 PER
08 Paul: 24, 11, and 5, 56.5 TS%, 30.7 PER
18 Paul: 21, 6, and 6, 22.8 TS%, 22.8 PER

Chris Paul hasn't won a ring, but he beat Dirk, Duncan, Lebron, Curry, Butler, and Jokic in playoff series.

I think this has to be Chris Paul for me. He's a better defender than Steve Nash. He's a better scorer than Stockton, Payton, and Kidd. He's a better passer than Payton. He's better at everything than Isiah.

Most people don't remember this, but the 2014 Spurs had one of the best playoff runs of all time but then lost in the first round next year to a game-winner Chris Paul hit over Tim Duncan.

Watch on YouTube

At age 22 he outplayed Dirk in a playoff series. At age 32 he took the Curry/Klay/Durant/Dray Warriors to game 7. At age 35 he took a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 11 years to the Finals. Yes, he had some mistakes in crunch time, like Zeke's pass to the Celtics.

Gary Payton and Jason Kidd won rings as role players later in their careers. Jason Kidd joined a team that won 26 games and took them to the finals twice, only to fall to Shaq/Kobe and Tim Duncan and the Spurs. Gary Payton ran into the 96 Bulls, who were a much better team than the 1990 Bulls. 72-10 and a +13.4 point differential vs. 55 wins and a +3.3 point differential. Stockton ran into the 97 Bulls who won 69 games and had a +12.0 point differential. Nash maybe would have won in 07 if not for the Amare suspension. If Rodman gets suspended for the Pistons, that could have cost IT a ring.

IT also doesn't have longevity.

All-NBA teams:
Chris Paul: 11
Stockton: 11
Payton: 9
Nash: 7
Kidd: 6
Isiah Thomas: 5

All-defensive teams:
Chris Paul: 9
Kidd: 9
Payton: 9
Stockton: 5
Isiah Thomas: 0
Steve Nash: 0

When it comes to stats Isiah Thomas is at the bottom of the lists.

Assists:
1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. CP3
5. Nash
10. Isiah Thomas
11. Gary Payton

Points:
42. CP3
43. Payton
56. Stockton
72. Isiah Thomas
91. Kidd
94. Nash

Steals:
1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. CP3
5. Gary Payton
18. Isiah Thomas
242. Steve Nash

VORP:
3. Stockton
6. CP3
20. Kidd
27. Gary Payton
40. Nash
58. Isiah Thomas

BPM:
6. CP3
8. Stockton
40. Jason Kidd
54. Gary Payton
68. Steve Nash
87. Isiah Thomas

Win Shares:
6. Stockton
7. CP3
30. Gary Payton
35. Jason Kidd
42. Steve Nash
166. Isiah Thomas

He’s at the bottom of the list because he only played like ten seasons.

Okay, and longevity matters.

CobraCommander wrote:

WillyJakkz wrote:Unnecessary thread.

We all absolutely know Isaiah Thomas is either 2nd 3rd or at worse 4th on the GOAT PG List.

Should retitle it 5th GOAT PG.

People saw the list and thought the same thing -

NO IT ?

Either Michael Jordan started the thread or someone too young to have saw IT -

But if you saw him- you know -

It’s funny but we give me credit to stats and less value to manufacturering wins that turn into rings-

The fact that IT has 2 rings as the best player on a championship team but is left off for guys that got more assist or points is silly.

Zeke actually beat MJ and MJ took it personally- cause IT didn’t back down or bow down to anyone. zeke knew who mj,
Bird, and Magic were and would not back down period

DimesandKnicks wrote:

Tottery wrote:

Optms wrote:
Nash was the product of D'Antoni's system though. We're talking about the only player in league history who went from a second tier All-star to winning MVP's once he turned 30. If that isn't a dead give away, I don't know what is. Nash also reverted to just a role player once he went to Lakers and he wasn't the focused of the team's offense.

As the person in your avatar would say, "Nash was the system." The majority of the players were there the prior season and D'Antoni took over as head coach. Finished with one of the worst records in the league. Nash was injected and everything changed. People also forget that hand checking was completely removed before Nash's first season in Phoenix. That allowed him to roam a lot more freely and plenty of players benefitted from it.

Nash's best days were behind him when he arrived in LA. He was 38 and his back was done. Not sure why that was brought up.

Amare was injured for more than a qtr of his sophomore season. It amazes me how people can act like Nash was the system when he had an entire act before PHX that no one cared about. If he retired at 30 he isn’t a hall of famer.

If he was who some of you think he was he would have had more success with the Mavs

Rishkar wrote:

CobraCommander wrote:

WillyJakkz wrote:Unnecessary thread.

We all absolutely know Isaiah Thomas is either 2nd 3rd or at worse 4th on the GOAT PG List.

Should retitle it 5th GOAT PG.

People saw the list and thought the same thing -

NO IT ?

Either Michael Jordan started the thread or someone too young to have saw IT -

But if you saw him- you know -

It’s funny but we give me credit to stats and less value to manufacturering wins that turn into rings-

The fact that IT has 2 rings as the best player on a championship team but is left off for guys that got more assist or points is silly.

Zeke actually beat MJ and MJ took it personally- cause IT didn’t back down or bow down to anyone. zeke knew who mj,
Bird, and Magic were and would not back down period

Yeah, I'm 18 and never got to watch IT play live. I edited the poll to add more options, I never realized how many people rank Thomas so highly. He has the advanced statistics of Earl Monroe, placed 69th in POY shares (right next to Penny Hardway), only finished top 5 in MVP voting one in the second weakest era of shotclock basketball, didn't make Ben Taylor's top 40 careers in NBA history, and placed significantly behind all the players originally included in the poll in the 2020 top 100 project (where he is yet to be even nominated this year). As a genuine question, besides being the best player on the historically deep Pistons squad's championship runs, where was he elite? Why would he be ranked this highly, or do people just rank rings really highly? His number's are underselling his impact, so what was he doing that didn't show up in a stat sheet?

Rishkar wrote:

CobraCommander wrote:

WillyJakkz wrote:Unnecessary thread.

We all absolutely know Isaiah Thomas is either 2nd 3rd or at worse 4th on the GOAT PG List.

Should retitle it 5th GOAT PG.

People saw the list and thought the same thing -

NO IT ?

Either Michael Jordan started the thread or someone too young to have saw IT -

But if you saw him- you know -

It’s funny but we give me credit to stats and less value to manufacturering wins that turn into rings-

The fact that IT has 2 rings as the best player on a championship team but is left off for guys that got more assist or points is silly.

Zeke actually beat MJ and MJ took it personally- cause IT didn’t back down or bow down to anyone. zeke knew who mj,
Bird, and Magic were and would not back down period

Yeah, I'm 18 and never got to watch IT play live. I edited the poll to add more options, I never realized how many people rank Thomas so highly. He has the advanced statistics of Earl Monroe, placed 69th in POY shares (right next to Penny Hardway), only finished top 5 in MVP voting one in the second weakest era of shotclock basketball, didn't make Ben Taylor's top 40 careers in NBA history, and placed significantly behind all the players originally included in the poll in the 2020 top 100 project (where he is yet to be even nominated this year). As a genuine question, besides being the best player on the historically deep Pistons squad's championship runs, where was he elite? Why would he be ranked this highly, or do people just rank rings really highly? His number's are underselling his impact, so what was he doing that didn't show up in a stat sheet?

Rishkar wrote:

CobraCommander wrote:

WillyJakkz wrote:Unnecessary thread.

We all absolutely know Isaiah Thomas is either 2nd 3rd or at worse 4th on the GOAT PG List.

Should retitle it 5th GOAT PG.

People saw the list and thought the same thing -

NO IT ?

Either Michael Jordan started the thread or someone too young to have saw IT -

But if you saw him- you know -

It’s funny but we give me credit to stats and less value to manufacturering wins that turn into rings-

The fact that IT has 2 rings as the best player on a championship team but is left off for guys that got more assist or points is silly.

Zeke actually beat MJ and MJ took it personally- cause IT didn’t back down or bow down to anyone. zeke knew who mj,
Bird, and Magic were and would not back down period

Yeah, I'm 18 and never got to watch IT play live. I edited the poll to add more options, I never realized how many people rank Thomas so highly. He has the advanced statistics of Earl Monroe, placed 69th in POY shares (right next to Penny Hardway), only finished top 5 in MVP voting one in the second weakest era of shotclock basketball, didn't make Ben Taylor's top 40 careers in NBA history, and placed significantly behind all the players originally included in the poll in the 2020 top 100 project (where he is yet to be even nominated this year). As a genuine question, besides being the best player on the historically deep Pistons squad's championship runs, where was he elite? Why would he be ranked this highly, or do people just rank rings really highly? His number's are underselling his impact, so what was he doing that didn't show up in a stat sheet?

SpreeS wrote:This forum already has top100 2023 list.

10 Magic
11 Curry
14 West
15 Oscar
20 Paul
24 Nash
29 Harden
33 Stockton
35 Frazier
38 Kidd
46 Westbrook

Rishkar wrote:Yeah, I'm 18 and never got to watch IT play live. I edited the poll to add more options, I never realized how many people rank Thomas so highly. He has the advanced statistics of Earl Monroe, placed 69th in POY shares (right next to Penny Hardway), only finished top 5 in MVP voting one in the second weakest era of shotclock basketball, didn't make Ben Taylor's top 40 careers in NBA history, and placed significantly behind all the players originally included in the poll in the 2020 top 100 project (where he is yet to be even nominated this year). As a genuine question, besides being the best player on the historically deep Pistons squad's championship runs, where was he elite? Why would he be ranked this highly, or do people just rank rings really highly? His number's are underselling his impact, so what was he doing that didn't show up in a stat sheet?