Top 10 best basketball players ever

[lessthanjake]

Okay, so I think what OP is looking for is basically a time-machine comparison of how good players were at basketball. So no era-relativity, and without the kind of additional points we might give players in a “greatness” comparison for the mere fact of winning titles or having certain achievements.

The main unclear variable to me is whether we are talking about putting everyone into a time machine to today’s era specifically, or whether we are making the comparison essentially agnostic to the specific rule set. Given that PooledSilver did not really phrase it as who would be best *today*, I am going to assume we are taking an ruleset-agnostic view to the question. So basically, if we put everyone in a time machine and brought them together and had them play basketball under many different iterations of the rules, what players would come out looking the best overall.

The way this hypothetical is posited, I think the answer is probably that the top 10 would have the best several players from today’s era, along with the best two or three from the era or two before that, and then probably just two or three transcendent players from all the older generations.

With that in mind, an example of what that might look like is something like this (in no particular order):

Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Jordan
Magic
LeBron
Jokic
Steph
Giannis

Haven’t given too much thought to the exact list, so that’s definitely not etched in stone for me, and there’s definitely a few players I can see knocking on the door that others could very reasonably put in their top 10 instead. But that’s the sort of thing I think it would look like, given OP’s parameters.

[falcolombardi]

If i really am doing this for todays basketball my top 10 probably would be

1-lebron (i think he is the ultimate small ball player on top of already being my goat peak in general)
Gap
2- hakeem (i think he just is a cheat code for the modern league, arguably was already unlucky in his own era of which i think he was the most talented player)
3-kareem, i think he is a outlier enough in mobility for his height that he could do a lite version of what wembayama does defensively while being a embiid level threat on offense (in different style)
Small gap
4- Magic, i think he would be a game breaker in modern basketball, his defense by his peak was not bad and even his jumpshot was lowkey nice
5- jokic, similar game breaking offense as magic albeit i think occupying the center spot (while not a bad defender) is a slightly bigger "sacrifice" than magic occuping a wing spot as both are "just" ok offensive players
6-Garnett, kind of the perfect player for the modern game, ultimate 1 in defense, 2 in offense kind of guy, but not being as reliable offensively cost him points
7-duncan, i think his style loses some value in todays game in both ends compared to garnett
8-jordan, i think his weaker for all time players vision and weaker (relative to his fairly excellrnt 1 on 1 D) off ball D and tendency for tunnel vision in both ends hurt him more today, i think there is a hard cap in offense for guys who are not all time passers with willingness to pass over scoring when the team needs it and i dont think a all D defense (as a guard) makes up for it

I kind of get muddled after top 8

[Doctor MJ]

Curious what people would say here

Best =/= greatest of course to be clear, we’re not talking relative to their peers we’re just saying in general

So, my first thought would be to clarify the criteria further.

Peak or Prime? And how specifically are designating what that means?
Endurance/durability consideration?
How are fundamental changes (rules, etc) accounted for? Are we asking who would be best in today's NBA environment?

If you're just curious what I'd tend to focus on here in the criteria, the reality is I think all of the possible variations here are valid, and I don't tend to keep regular rigid lists any more. I tend to be more interested in comparisons between specific sets of players at a time, and I tend to like to point out the relative advantages and disadvantages of each cross-criteria.

But what I will say is that in the recent past I was more focused on focusing on the best in the NBA's current environment, and I just found that things were changing so quickly and dramatically it made that criteria less evergreen of a project.

If the most modern era of the NBA, I think LeBron reins as the guy most proven to able to be amazing through the refinements of strategy, the current guy forcing us to seriously consider challengers to LeBron again is Jokic, and the upcoming guys we're all wondering if he can surpass them all is Wemby.

Would I consider Jokic a top 2 "best" player ever based on this criteria currently? Not yet. I want to see more playoff series to see if he prove resilient enough given his defensive limitations.

And if you're curious about my #2 guys right now based on such a modernist criteria, I'd say Jordan, and yeah, I wouldn't move anyone ahead of Jordan lightly.

And why LeBron ahead of Jordan? Well, I'll put it this way: If it were just offense, I'd go Magic over either. I think outlier passing is incredibly valuable, and only more so today, so this helps LeBron overcome Jordan's GOAT scoring ability.

[trex_8063]

I would be tremendously interested to see how our perceptions of the game would be altered just from these changes alone.

I'm guessing a number of people might be near-dumbfounded to see the difference.

Ball changes are also notable. It is much easier to handle an 8 panel ball than the early 4 panel versions. Compounding with that difference, the NBA ball was approximately .5 inch larger than it is now for the first few decades. Changed to what we'd think of as the modern ball in the early 70s.

This off season I’m planning to start a thread on this subject. I agree the changes to hardware over the years is a massively underrated part of historical numbers and the game.

Prior to I believe 1952, the ball was also an actual inflated bladder within a sewn leather case, too (like, with an actual thread/seam on one side). Something like this:




I mean, yeah......forget about rule changes/officiating. Just change all of these things and see how much the game and the optics of it change.
I would bet it's by A LOT.

[eminence]

Ball changes are also notable. It is much easier to handle an 8 panel ball than the early 4 panel versions. Compounding with that difference, the NBA ball was approximately .5 inch larger than it is now for the first few decades. Changed to what we'd think of as the modern ball in the early 70s.

This off season I’m planning to start a thread on this subject. I agree the changes to hardware over the years is a massively underrated part of historical numbers and the game.

Prior to I believe 1952, the ball was also an actual inflated bladder within a sewn leather case, too (like, with an actual thread/seam on one side). Something like this:




I mean, yeah......forget about rule changes/officiating. Just change all of these things and see how much the game and the optics of it change.
I would bet it's by A LOT.

I had thought that change was a bit earlier, the NBL at least had their 40's balls with the laces on the inside.

But if you've ever played around with one of those laces on the outside balls, holy hell they suck, the laces are obviously a nightmare. But they're also huge, the gap from them to the NBA ball is bigger than the gap from the NBA ball to the WNBA ball.

[rk2023]

LeBron
Russell
Jordan
Kareem
Hakeem
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Curry

That would be my era-relative one. A modernist angle is much harder for me to take, because I don't see assuming translation to be 'ceteris paribus' as a fair deal

[penbeast0]

Dang, had to look that one up.

[spree8]

If I’m looking at this like we take all players in history and bring them up in modern day, everything equal, access to all the same advances in technology, nutrition, science, knowledge of the game, yada yada yada, I think this is top 10 greatest:


1: Jordan

Watch on YouTube

;si=4NgR0Sc0KgtZdqKI

2: LeBron

3: Shaq

4: Kareem

5: Dream

6: Duncan

7: Joker

8: Bird

9: Magic

10: Garnett


I think for those that don’t know about what Jordan was able to do in the 80’s before Phil came with the triangle, should check out some of that video. He would absolutely fit in this modern era and dominate no question.


I left Wilt off because of the simple fact that he was admittedly reluctant to dominate the game like Shaq did even tho he could. I know he believed in playing a different style and not hurting guys, but man, if that wasn’t the case I think he’d be top 3 easy.

Steph is just right outside top 10 too.

[mikejames23]

I keep tinkering with this list.

MJ
Russell

I think the 2 solid GOATs without contest. Mostly, invincible in their ways. Its tough to challenge these two.

Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron

Quadruple threat, but lower than the GOATs. These guys were great but not at the Top. LeBron is debatably sometimes #1, but sometimes as low as #7. Hakeem is the most interesting of this group, has really high defense to be one of the best, but he falls short somewhere.

Duncan
Wilt
Curry
Kobe

The 7-10 list is pretty solid. Kobe and Curry are a bit weaker than Duncan/Wilt, but still all timers with high threat. Wilt is curiously the one with the most GOAT feats out there.

Magic/Bird

11/12 are pretty interchangeable after. Personally those two were GOATs of their era.

HMs: Kawhi, Jokic, KG, Oscar. A super talented group that I consider for top 10, but I need some more debate time for.

[OhayoKD]

LeBron
Russell
Jordan
Kareem
Hakeem
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Curry

That would be my era-relative one. A modernist angle is much harder for me to take, because I don't see assuming translation to be 'ceteris paribus' as a fair deal

What does "fairness" have to do with anything lol.

The idea that players being compared directly as opposed to indirectly is unfair is just moral grandstanding.

[SNPA]

Name a current point guard whose game is not totally altered by only being able to touch the top of the ball when dribbling?

I’m not saying they won’t be altered I’m saying they won’t look like bob cousy doing two handed layups and broken jumpers not hitting the rim

Why would they be altered? And how would they be altered?

Can’t answer?

[OhayoKD]

If I’m looking at this like we take all players in history and bring them up in modern day, everything equal, access to all the same advances in technology, nutrition, science, knowledge of the game, yada yada yada,

The correct answer is the new human you've created because for whatever reason you decided to start with birth instead of just taking the player as they are....doesn't play professional basketball.

I think for those that don’t know about what Jordan was able to do in the 80’s before Phil came with the triangle, should check out some of that video. He would absolutely fit in this modern era and dominate no question.

Or you can watch the actual games from the 80's and realize Jordan was not nearly as involved in the offense as top-tier playmakers, was not breaking down defenses to a similar degree with his passes, or observe the actual results where the team went .500 when Jordan tried to play point and could not cross the mid 50's until the triangle asked his teammates to do more and micheal jordan to do less...


Not a good look posting videos that confuse being able to read numbers on basketball reference with deep basketball knowledge as a means to teach people who "don't know"

[spree8]

If I’m looking at this like we take all players in history and bring them up in modern day, everything equal, access to all the same advances in technology, nutrition, science, knowledge of the game, yada yada yada,

The correct answer is the new human you've created because for whatever reason you decided to start with birth instead of just taking the player as they are....doesn't play professional basketball.

I think for those that don’t know about what Jordan was able to do in the 80’s before Phil came with the triangle, should check out some of that video. He would absolutely fit in this modern era and dominate no question.

Or you can watch the actual games from the 80's and realize Jordan was not nearly as involved in the offense as top-tier playmakers, was not breaking down defenses to a similar degree with his passes, or observe the actual results where the team went .500 when Jordan tried to play point and could not cross the mid 50's until the triangle asked his teammates to do more and micheal jordan to do less...


Not a good look posting videos that confuse being able to read numbers on basketball reference with deep basketball knowledge as a means to teach people who "don't know"

You’re quite angry huh? lol Not a good look. Very strange response and I couldn’t disagree more. Have a nice day

[SpreeS]

I have only one thing against older the greatest players, but I I don't underestimate them against nowdays players. The competition is way harder at all stages of player development. To reach the best league in the world ALLNBA 1st team guard spot in today NBA is nothing like in Bob Cousy era. You wont get ALLNBA 1st team if played 55 games (Jerry West).

[Rishkar]

I keep tinkering with this list.

MJ
Russell

I think the 2 solid GOATs without contest. Mostly, invincible in their ways. Its tough to challenge these two.

Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron

Quadruple threat, but lower than the GOATs. These guys were great but not at the Top. LeBron is debatably sometimes #1, but sometimes as low as #7. Hakeem is the most interesting of this group, has really high defense to be one of the best, but he falls short somewhere.

Duncan
Wilt
Curry
Kobe

The 7-10 list is pretty solid. Kobe and Curry are a bit weaker than Duncan/Wilt, but still all timers with high threat. Wilt is curiously the one with the most GOAT feats out there.

Magic/Bird

11/12 are pretty interchangeable after. Personally those two were GOATs of their era.

HMs: Kawhi, Jokic, KG, Oscar. A super talented group that I consider for top 10, but I need some more debate time for.

This list honestly confuses me. What places Hakeem and Shaq on a separate tier from Duncan? Sure, you can prefer those two, but this seems to imply a large gap between them that I just don't see. I'd also include Wilt in that same tier, but there is enough variance there that it isn't as ergregious.
Can someone give me a good reason to put Curry and Magic over Oscar?

[SS_Carpathia]

The greatest players ever are also the best, it's not that complicated.

Not what those words mean, no. Many people like to pretend they are substitutes for one another, but the meanings are distinct.

Is this some sort of Yank custom, where every term has to be broken down, analysed, categorised to an absurd degree? Does anyone here think that real NBA players would make these distinctions, or perhaps only RealGM members? If we are lay-etymologists, however, then 'great' has several different meanings - no singular 'distinct' one - some of which may indeed overlap with 'good', which is the base of 'best'.

[penbeast0]

The reason we are breaking down the term is because (stickied up at the top of the forum) we have just been doing our top 100 Greatest player list so we've had a lot of discussion on who was the greatest player already. Presumably the OP is trying to get at something else and we are trying to figure out what.

[Redmoon]

The question being who the "best" players ever in a vacuum (even though imo is a very problematic and nonsensical way to assess players) to me would look something like:

Curry - Leaving curry off this type of list is impossible. Best shooter ever by a gigantic margin (so far), having the offensive impact he does at 6'2 6'3 indicates his "skill" level is off the charts, handle is crazy.
Luka - S tier shot making, S tier playmaking, savant IQ
Lebron - supreme athleticism, playmaking, top tier wing defense, savant IQ. The most complete perimeter player we've seen so far.
KD - guard skills in a 7 foot frame.
Kawhi - robot MJ. 2 way monster. According to the numbers a better midrange shooter than MJ.
Jokic - has almost every offensive skillset, top2 passer ever imo, outlier floater shot, savant IQ.
Embiid - true potential marred by injuries. his face up game combined with his 300lb frame is unprecedented.
AD - One of the best defenders in todays game if not the best. Suffocates teams by himself in the playoffs.
I also personally think there are a boatload of wings and guards that are fantastic defenders today, especially compared to defenders in the past. A function of the increased athleticism today.

I thought of including giannis - his sheer impact is top tier, but i dont really respect his skillset (run and dunk man + era merchant because you can travel and play football in the nba now).

Notice that the list is comprised of entirely present day players. I also dont care about health. If we are strictly talking "best" then I think it has to be this way save for maybe a few exceptions. Every generation builds on the foundations that the previous one laid down, and teams, coaches, players get smarter and more efficient. Humans get old and their bodies break down. Old players never get a chance to continue to learn and improve their game (duh).

My exceptions:
Kareem - Remarkable athlete at 7'2, his defense would translate well in todays game, resilient scoring arsenal
MJ - part of the reason I didn't include other guards beside Curry. Outlier athleticism combined with scoring arsenal + playmaking is hard to beat. I do think he could be a decent 3 point shooter (alot of players learn to have different shooting forms for different shots, and MJ has preternatural ability to gain new skills imo) but thats not the question here. theres like 500 guards in the league today that are better 3 ball shooters than MJ but deficient compared to him in other areas. He's sorta like a mix of Ant, Shai, dBook but with no 3 ball worse handle and much better bball IQ.
Magic - Wing lite version of Jokic. Can't shoot (by modern standards). savant IQ and playmaking.
Garnett - Basically an AD clone + playmaking

I'm probably missing a bunch of modern players but thats the gist of it. Its just impossible to compare eras in this way. I regard the notion of a random modern player being "better" than an old legend at basketball about the same as telling me a left handed player like manu has a better left hand than Wade. Yeah cause one guy is left handed and another is not. its not really something I respect or I think is worthy of much admiration because of the different advancements through the eras.

[One_and_Done]

Since this is effectively how I ordinarily rank players I don't need to change anything from my usual lists. Top 3 would probably be Lebron way out in front, then Duncan and Kareem. After that it gets trickier, but I assume the rest of my top 10 (in no order) includes Shaq, Jordan, Magic, Hakeem, KG, probably Bird I guess, Curry, and then a bunch of guys like KD, Giannis, etc hovering. Jokic too if he keeps this up, though he's still nowhere near the top 10 guys. The guy has had one favourable title run thus far. If only peak mattered Kawhi too.

[McBubbles]

What a boring thread this devolved into