Is Jokic better than Lebron ever was ? Has he already peaked higher ? How long before he surpasses him all time?

[The4thHorseman]

Jokic is better, IMO.

Did it without superstar help and special treatment.

Heck...did it without a single all star.

Jokic is the better player and teammate.

Who were the superstars on the Cavs 2016 team? Besides LeBron, which Cavs made the all star team that year?

[LaLover11]

Jokic is better, IMO.

Did it without superstar help and special treatment.

Heck...did it without a single all star.

Jokic is the better player and teammate.

Who were the superstars on the Cavs 2016 team? Besides LeBron, which Cavs made the all star team that year?

How about LeBron playing without Kyrie and Love the whole 2015 Final Series because they we're injured lol

2017 & 2018 vs a 73-9 Warriors big 3 that added Prime Durant lol

[The4thHorseman]

If Lebron gets held to a 6 championship MJ standard then Jokic should be held to a 4.

But he is not by large crowd so jokic needs even less accolades to pass LeBron as far as I am concerned.

So Joker's already passed your boy, Durant?

[LaLover11]

I'll just leave this here and go have breakfast
Let me know when Jokic does this

[naabzor]

LeBron did great but the east was crap

[Godymas]

don't mention defense to these people, it doesn't actually mean anything apparently

No, we can acknowledge Jokic is merely an average to above-average defender.

However, we should also acknowledge that while Jokic's numbers don't "pop out" of the screen the man is the greatest orchestrator and offensive force the league has ever seen. He's able to take a G-league roster (21-22 Denver roster) to the playoffs with 46 wins and when given an average cast like this year's he becomes a perpetual championship contender.

There's a difference between being a high PPG scorer which a bunch of guys can do (Embiid, Doncic, SGA) versus being The System where success/failure of each individual role player (Murray/AG/MPJ) rests firmly on the shoulders of how well Jokic can spoon feed them easy buckets. Again, all these other guys in the playoffs have 1-2 all-star teammates and Jokic is a 1-man crew as evidenced by having zero all-star teammates in his entire career.

Most dudes should donate 30% of their paychecks to him for making them appear to be better than they are.

Jamal Murray is an All Star level teammate. Just because he never got the official nod doesn't change that all his counting and advanced numbers point to him being an All Star level teammate. Did you watch what Jamal Murray did in the bubble when Jokic completely shrank? Jokic kept getting into foul trouble in the playoffs vs LA.

Russell Westbrook took a G-league roster to the playoffs with 47 wins, look at that roster, none of the big names were good back then.

Taking an awful team to the playoffs is the norm for ANY superstar player, this isn't some insane achievement that only Jokic has done. I'm sure you can look at every year and see a team make the playoffs with a solid 40ish wins that had no business being there. Lebron took the 2007 Cavs to the NBA Finals, go look at that roster, the team was literal trash.

[LaLover11]

LeBron did great but the east was crap

2009 Prime Dwight Howard Magic
Big 3 Celtics

Lmao those teams would destroy anybody in the 2024 East Playoffs!!!!

Keep lying to yourself

[LaLover11]

don't mention defense to these people, it doesn't actually mean anything apparently

No, we can acknowledge Jokic is merely an average to above-average defender.

However, we should also acknowledge that while Jokic's numbers don't "pop out" of the screen the man is the greatest orchestrator and offensive force the league has ever seen. He's able to take a G-league roster (21-22 Denver roster) to the playoffs with 46 wins and when given an average cast like this year's he becomes a perpetual championship contender.

There's a difference between being a high PPG scorer which a bunch of guys can do (Embiid, Doncic, SGA) versus being The System where success/failure of each individual role player (Murray/AG/MPJ) rests firmly on the shoulders of how well Jokic can spoon feed them easy buckets. Again, all these other guys in the playoffs have 1-2 all-star teammates and Jokic is a 1-man crew as evidenced by having zero all-star teammates in his entire career.

Most dudes should donate 30% of their paychecks to him for making them appear to be better than they are.

Jamal Murray is an All Star level teammate. Just because he never got the official nod doesn't change that all his counting and advanced numbers point to him being an All Star level teammate. Did you watch what Jamal Murray did in the bubble when Jokic completely shrank? Jokic kept getting into foul trouble in the playoffs vs LA.

Russell Westbrook took a G-league roster to the playoffs with 47 wins, look at that roster, none of the big names were good back then.

Taking an awful team to the playoffs is the norm for ANY superstar player, this isn't some insane achievement that only Jokic has done. I'm sure you can look at every year and see a team make the playoffs with a solid 40ish wins that had no business being there. Lebron took the 2007 Cavs to the NBA Finals, go look at that roster, the team was literal trash.

All this is true unfortunately no matter what LeBron does they will discredit it.

[naabzor]

LeBron did great but the east was crap

2009 Prime Dwight Howard Magic
Big 3 Celtics

Lmao those teams would destroy anybody in the 2024 East Playoffs!!!!

Keep lying to yourself

He lost to both.

[lessthanjake]

LeBron did great but the east was crap

2009 Prime Dwight Howard Magic
Big 3 Celtics

Lmao those teams would destroy anybody in the 2024 East Playoffs!!!!

Keep lying to yourself

Those aren’t the years people are referring to when they say the East was bad. Those are the teams LeBron lost to. Then the East started being bad and LeBron stopped losing to teams in the East.

Anyways, to me, there’s no shame in the East being bad for a long time in LeBron’s career. It’s obviously lucky to be in the far weaker conference, and it’s an enormous reason he made so many Finals. But you can only beat who is in front of you, and his teams consistently did that in the East. It’s just that people should recognize that the achievement of making the Finals is of differing levels of impressiveness depending on how strong one’s conference is. So people saying things like “Look at the roster LeBron took to the Finals” or things like that are missing some crucial context. But I think most people do understand that. And most people do realize that if his teams had been in the West, LeBron would’ve made far fewer Finals (but also probably had a way better record in the Finals!).

[LaLover11]

LeBron did great but the east was crap

2009 Prime Dwight Howard Magic
Big 3 Celtics

Lmao those teams would destroy anybody in the 2024 East Playoffs!!!!

Keep lying to yourself

He lost to both.

Yes he lost to those all time great teams lol by himself
Lmao I just want to see how many games Jokic would've won in that weak East Conference with Delonte West & Boobie Gibson being his backcourt

[lessthanjake]

don't mention defense to these people, it doesn't actually mean anything apparently

No, we can acknowledge Jokic is merely an average to above-average defender.

However, we should also acknowledge that while Jokic's numbers don't "pop out" of the screen the man is the greatest orchestrator and offensive force the league has ever seen. He's able to take a G-league roster (21-22 Denver roster) to the playoffs with 46 wins and when given an average cast like this year's he becomes a perpetual championship contender.

There's a difference between being a high PPG scorer which a bunch of guys can do (Embiid, Doncic, SGA) versus being The System where success/failure of each individual role player (Murray/AG/MPJ) rests firmly on the shoulders of how well Jokic can spoon feed them easy buckets. Again, all these other guys in the playoffs have 1-2 all-star teammates and Jokic is a 1-man crew as evidenced by having zero all-star teammates in his entire career.

Most dudes should donate 30% of their paychecks to him for making them appear to be better than they are.

Jamal Murray is an All Star level teammate. Just because he never got the official nod doesn't change that all his counting and advanced numbers point to him being an All Star level teammate. Did you watch what Jamal Murray did in the bubble when Jokic completely shrank? Jokic kept getting into foul trouble in the playoffs vs LA.

Russell Westbrook took a G-league roster to the playoffs with 47 wins, look at that roster, none of the big names were good back then.

Taking an awful team to the playoffs is the norm for ANY superstar player, this isn't some insane achievement that only Jokic has done. I'm sure you can look at every year and see a team make the playoffs with a solid 40ish wins that had no business being there. Lebron took the 2007 Cavs to the NBA Finals, go look at that roster, the team was literal trash.

There’s really no comparison between the supporting cast of the 2022 Nuggets and the supporting cast of the 2017 Thunder. Like it’s not even close. The 2017 Thunder were not a great team, but they had solid players. It was not even close to a “G-league roster.” It was filled with guys who have had long, quality careers in the NBA. And it even had a guy who went to a different team the next year and finished 13th in MVP voting. Sure, guys like Grant and Sabonis weren’t at their best yet, but that team was really quite a lot better than the 2022 Nuggets. The 2022 Nuggets’ supporting cast was basically Aaron Gordon + a bunch of guys who were borderline NBA players at best. It’s not even close. Nor is it anywhere close to the 2007 Cavs supporting cast either. Ilgauskas and Hughes were good players! And the team was filled with solid role players. Guys like Gooden and Varejao were good role players! Was the 2007 Cavs team a weak supporting cast by normal standards? Certainly yes. But the 2022 Nuggets were just a different level of bad from what we are used to even contemplating. They were off-the-charts bad. You shouldn’t just look at other players’ supporting casts that you generally consider bad and handwave at it and act like it’s similar. It’s not. Granted, taking an absolutely awful team to the playoffs is not that huge an achievement, for the simple reason that making the playoffs isn’t all that important by itself. But we should at least recognize the difficulty of it, even if it doesn’t really matter much.

[Iwasawitness]

Imagine being in a world thinking that 2022-23 Cleveland was better than Miami or Sacramento was better than Lakers because of “seeding”. News flash. In this era of load managing, seeding isn’t important as it used to be. So to say that they beat an “8th seed” in the Finals lacks context on so many levels.

First off, Sacramento was definitely better than LA that year. I’ll give you Cleveland being inferior to Miami, but not the other.

Second, there’s much more to it than seeding. Again, it’s important to note their records and why they had said records to begin with. Again, the West was considered weak that year and for very good reasons.

Third, load management? That isn’t why Miami had a lower seed, same with LA. In reality, LA didn’t actually get better until they traded away Westbrook and acquired better fitting supporting pieces for their roster. And even then, they just barely squeaked their way in. Nice try but if you’re going to play the “apply context” game, do it correctly.

Jokic battled Bam, AD, Gobert in the playoffs last year…

Yeah and how’d that work out for them? None of them were capable of guarding Jokic and LA even stopped having AD guard Jokic at one point because they actually did better when he didn’t since they knew Jokic was usually looking to pass. But again, nice try.

who’d Lebron battle in the east once the Celtics core broke up? Paul George? DeRozan? Joe Johnson????

Significantly better teams, with higher SRS ratings and much better records. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but basketball is a team sport. Name dropping people and completely ignoring what kind of teams they were on (DeRozen was on multiple 50 win teams and wasn’t even the best player on his own team, Paul George was on the best defensive team in the league on multiple occasions). And I’m sorry, why are you ignoring the Thunder, the Spurs and the Warriors? Hell, the 2011 Mavericks were much better than the 2023 Heat. Are you just ignoring the Finals opponents?

Lebron had the easiest path to the Finals year in and year out and even if those Chicago and Indiana teams were feisty, they were still no match for a team with Lebron and Kyrie.

And yet none of those teams Jokic faced were a match for his Nuggets squad, so why aren’t you applying that same logic to them? Meanwhile when paired with Irving, LeBron had to face multiple 50 win teams and even a 60 winner at one point, on top of facing the Warriors every single time. Keep in mind that my argument is about having the easiest path to a title… you trying to move the goal posts isn’t going to help you here. And I know why you’re doing it, because that alone kills the argument that LeBron had an easier path.

There is only one year where you can argue LeBron had an easier path, and that’s 2017 when no one stood a realistic chance of defeating the Cavaliers even on their worst day… until they got to the finals, where they faced the greatest team ever put together. Please do tell me at what point did Denver face anything close to that? If they didn’t, your point is mute and your argument is automatically refuted.

“Quite literally the easiest path” is absolute lmao

It’s the absolute truth. Not my problem if you aren’t smart enough to understand why.

[Cubbies2120]

No, we can acknowledge Jokic is merely an average to above-average defender.

However, we should also acknowledge that while Jokic's numbers don't "pop out" of the screen the man is the greatest orchestrator and offensive force the league has ever seen. He's able to take a G-league roster (21-22 Denver roster) to the playoffs with 46 wins and when given an average cast like this year's he becomes a perpetual championship contender.

There's a difference between being a high PPG scorer which a bunch of guys can do (Embiid, Doncic, SGA) versus being The System where success/failure of each individual role player (Murray/AG/MPJ) rests firmly on the shoulders of how well Jokic can spoon feed them easy buckets. Again, all these other guys in the playoffs have 1-2 all-star teammates and Jokic is a 1-man crew as evidenced by having zero all-star teammates in his entire career.

Most dudes should donate 30% of their paychecks to him for making them appear to be better than they are.

Jamal Murray is an All Star level teammate. Just because he never got the official nod doesn't change that all his counting and advanced numbers point to him being an All Star level teammate. Did you watch what Jamal Murray did in the bubble when Jokic completely shrank? Jokic kept getting into foul trouble in the playoffs vs LA.

Russell Westbrook took a G-league roster to the playoffs with 47 wins, look at that roster, none of the big names were good back then.

Taking an awful team to the playoffs is the norm for ANY superstar player, this isn't some insane achievement that only Jokic has done. I'm sure you can look at every year and see a team make the playoffs with a solid 40ish wins that had no business being there. Lebron took the 2007 Cavs to the NBA Finals, go look at that roster, the team was literal trash.

There’s really no comparison between the supporting cast of the 2022 Nuggets and the supporting cast of the 2017 Thunder. Like it’s not even close. The 2017 Thunder were not a great team, but they had solid players. It was not even close to a “G-league roster.” It was filled with guys who have had long, quality careers in the NBA. And it even had a guy who went to a different team the next year and finished 13th in MVP voting. Sure, guys like Grant and Sabonis weren’t at their best yet, but that team was really quite a lot better than the 2022 Nuggets. The 2022 Nuggets’ supporting cast was basically Aaron Gordon + a bunch of guys who were borderline NBA players at best. It’s not even close. Nor is it anywhere close to the 2007 Cavs supporting cast either. Ilgauskas and Hughes were good players! And the team was filled with solid role players. Guys like Gooden and Varejao were good role players! Was the 2007 Cavs team a weak supporting cast by normal standards? Certainly yes. But the 2022 Nuggets were just a different level of bad from what we are used to even contemplating. They were off-the-charts bad. You shouldn’t just look at other players’ supporting casts that you generally consider bad and handwave at it and act like it’s similar. It’s not. Granted, taking an absolutely awful team to the playoffs is not that huge an achievement, for the simple reason that making the playoffs isn’t all that important by itself. But we should at least recognize the difficulty of it, even if it doesn’t really matter much.

Ignore him - he's just baiting and trolling at this point. I was out walking the dogs when i read the part about:

Jamal Murray is an All Star level teammate. Just because he never got the official nod doesn't change that all his counting and advanced numbers point to him being an All Star level teammate.

Ah yes, a guy who has a career WS/48 of .106 is an all-star level teammate. Last year, Murray carried a WS/48 of .116 and a BPM of 1.3 which is in line with what a 22 year old Tyrese Maxey was doing as a 3rd/4th option in Philly (.117 WS/48, 2.2 BPM) - and that's Jokic's best teammate.

Gody and the rest of the Embiid stans don't want to admit that Jokic is literally a one man unit raising his teammates to levels they'd never achieve without Jokic basically cosplaying as both Magic and Kareem (in the words of the legendary James Worthy).

They see a game winning shot and think "hur dur he's an all star!" without realizing that the game winning shot was needed because Murray couldn't hit a bucket all game and put them in the situation.

Also referencing the Lakers series is laughable seeing as how Jokic literally got mauled left and right with no calls except in Game 2 where he shot like 10. So of course they'll use that series where Jokic had 5 fouls in 3 games and 4 fouls in the other 2 games - a series where officiating beyond a measure of doubt favored the Lakers as the one and only playoff failure of Jokic's career. Otherwise, he's in pantheon of GOATs as he raises his game to another level in the playoffs only to be let down by teammates time-after-time.

[Iwasawitness]

No, we can acknowledge Jokic is merely an average to above-average defender.

However, we should also acknowledge that while Jokic's numbers don't "pop out" of the screen the man is the greatest orchestrator and offensive force the league has ever seen. He's able to take a G-league roster (21-22 Denver roster) to the playoffs with 46 wins and when given an average cast like this year's he becomes a perpetual championship contender.

There's a difference between being a high PPG scorer which a bunch of guys can do (Embiid, Doncic, SGA) versus being The System where success/failure of each individual role player (Murray/AG/MPJ) rests firmly on the shoulders of how well Jokic can spoon feed them easy buckets. Again, all these other guys in the playoffs have 1-2 all-star teammates and Jokic is a 1-man crew as evidenced by having zero all-star teammates in his entire career.

Most dudes should donate 30% of their paychecks to him for making them appear to be better than they are.

Jamal Murray is an All Star level teammate. Just because he never got the official nod doesn't change that all his counting and advanced numbers point to him being an All Star level teammate. Did you watch what Jamal Murray did in the bubble when Jokic completely shrank? Jokic kept getting into foul trouble in the playoffs vs LA.

Russell Westbrook took a G-league roster to the playoffs with 47 wins, look at that roster, none of the big names were good back then.

Taking an awful team to the playoffs is the norm for ANY superstar player, this isn't some insane achievement that only Jokic has done. I'm sure you can look at every year and see a team make the playoffs with a solid 40ish wins that had no business being there. Lebron took the 2007 Cavs to the NBA Finals, go look at that roster, the team was literal trash.

There’s really no comparison between the supporting cast of the 2022 Nuggets and the supporting cast of the 2017 Thunder. Like it’s not even close. The 2017 Thunder were not a great team, but they had solid players. It was not even close to a “G-league roster.” It was filled with guys who have had long, quality careers in the NBA. And it even had a guy who went to a different team the next year and finished 13th in MVP voting. Sure, guys like Grant and Sabonis weren’t at their best yet, but that team was really quite a lot better than the 2022 Nuggets. The 2022 Nuggets’ supporting cast was basically Aaron Gordon + a bunch of guys who were borderline NBA players at best. It’s not even close. Nor is it anywhere close to the 2007 Cavs supporting cast either. Ilgauskas and Hughes were good players! And the team was filled with solid role players. Guys like Gooden and Varejao were good role players! Was the 2007 Cavs team a weak supporting cast by normal standards? Certainly yes. But the 2022 Nuggets were just a different level of bad from what we are used to even contemplating. They were off-the-charts bad. You shouldn’t just look at other players’ supporting casts that you generally consider bad and handwave at it and act like it’s similar. It’s not. Granted, taking an absolutely awful team to the playoffs is not that huge an achievement, for the simple reason that making the playoffs isn’t all that important by itself. But we should at least recognize the difficulty of it, even if it doesn’t really matter much.

I know I didn’t just see someone try to claim that Larry Hughes was a good player in 2007. Larry Hughes was so bad that year that Mike Brown got annoyed and eventually took him out of the starting lineup DURING THE FINALS. He averaged 15 PPG on ridiculously bad efficiency. He would usually kill our offense with poor decision making and sloppy play, and this was before LeBron became egotistical so he didn’t do anything about it. Big Z was pretty much a one legged man at that point and was only good for standing in the corner to hit jumpers and protect the rim. Drew Gooden was decent, he had the mid ranger and was mobile but overall nothing to write home about.

Anderson Varejao… oh man. This is how you can tell when someone wasn’t watching the team at the time. I’m going to fill you in on a little secret… but the only reason Anderson even got playing time in 2007 is because the Cavs pretty much didn’t have a choice. He had almost no offensive game to the point where asking him to dribble the ball so he could move over a couple of feet was a frightening sight to see. He couldn’t post up, he had no jumper, he was a terrible passer, and he got very nervous whenever he had the ball. His only saving grace is that he was a decent off ball cutter, which benefited him greatly since he was playing with LeBron who was excellent at finding him for scoring opportunities.

Eventually, all the time spent into him paid off and he became a great rebounding forward with a crafty offensive game and very good defense. But it took time to get there. He was anything but a good player in 2007, far from it.

[MacGill]

Jokic's 23 PS run is > to me than any of LBJ's + no all-star teammates, selected coaches or hand picked teammates. Also, as this is the most modern, athletic league ever, and Jokic obviously ranks top 5 in all athletic attributes, he is well on his way to replacing LBJ in my top 10. He is not there yet but I am very thankful we finally have an 80/90 version of the modern athlete to help others see that there is much more to basketball than having a 45 inch vertical with a 3-point shot.

If you honestly rank Jokic’s title run higher than any of LeBron’s, you have a clear and obvious bias and should not be taken seriously as a poster.

Oh, I've been taken very seriously as a poster over quite some time here! No bias...just my opinion and simple facts if you'd like to review his prior season.

But I'll let you correct me with all this 'new' information that you must have that wasn't already presented before by any other poster over the last decade.

Take your time.

[Iwasawitness]

LeBron did great but the east was crap

2009 Prime Dwight Howard Magic
Big 3 Celtics

Lmao those teams would destroy anybody in the 2024 East Playoffs!!!!

Keep lying to yourself

He lost to both.

You’re kidding yourself if you think Jokic is beating either of those teams with his Nuggets squads.

Big Three Celtics actually matchup incredibly well with the Nuggets. Nuggets lack the defense and size needed to contain the Celtics offense and defensively the Celtics have so many different ways to limit the Nuggets offense. And if we’re talking the 2010 Celtics… sheesh. Have fun with that. Not only are you dealing with Perkins, you’ve got Rasheed Wallace coming off the bench. Actually, they’d probably have Rasheed start and guard Jokic. Rasheed was an elite post defender who wasn’t afraid to play a physical brand of basketball on top of being able to spread the floor and was better offensively than Perkins. The thing here is that neither of them would shut down Jokic, I don’t think anyone can. But the thing is, they would both provide extremely physical play, force you to battle hard on the boards, and most importantly, the rest of the Nuggets would be held in check.

The Magic… oh man.

First off, Dwight Howard is probably one of only maybe four or five people who can actually limit Jokic (scoring wise). His athleticism and ability to leave the floor in any position would make it very difficult for Jokic to be able to generate offense the way he wants. Now the good news is the Magic won’t be able to limit the rest of the Nuggets as effectively so Jokic could still dominate with his passing. But I have no idea how the Nuggets are stopping the Magic offense.

Either way the Nuggets aren’t beating either team.

[Iwasawitness]

Jokic's 23 PS run is > to me than any of LBJ's + no all-star teammates, selected coaches or hand picked teammates. Also, as this is the most modern, athletic league ever, and Jokic obviously ranks top 5 in all athletic attributes, he is well on his way to replacing LBJ in my top 10. He is not there yet but I am very thankful we finally have an 80/90 version of the modern athlete to help others see that there is much more to basketball than having a 45 inch vertical with a 3-point shot.

If you honestly rank Jokic’s title run higher than any of LeBron’s, you have a clear and obvious bias and should not be taken seriously as a poster.

Oh, I've been taken very seriously as a poster over quite some time here! No bias...just my opinion and simple facts if you'd like to review his prior season.

But I'll let you correct me with all this 'new' information that you must have that wasn't already presented before by any other poster over the last decade.

Take your time.

Alright, let’s do this on an individual basis. Let’s start with… 2013. Please tell me why Jokic’s run in 2023 is superior to LeBron’s in that campaign and we’ll go from there.

OR, you can read some of my other posts about the 2023 Nuggets having the easiest finals run in NBA history.

[MacGill]

If you honestly rank Jokic’s title run higher than any of LeBron’s, you have a clear and obvious bias and should not be taken seriously as a poster.

Oh, I've been taken very seriously as a poster over quite some time here! No bias...just my opinion and simple facts if you'd like to review his prior season.

But I'll let you correct me with all this 'new' information that you must have that wasn't already presented before by any other poster over the last decade.

Take your time.

Alright, let’s do this on an individual basis. Let’s start with… 2013. Please tell me why Jokic’s run in 2023 is superior to LeBron’s in that campaign and we’ll go from there.

OR, you can read some of my other posts about the 2023 Nuggets having the easiest finals run in NBA history.

Respectfully, I should have known by your 'username' that this is where you would be going. Back to his ultra stacked team and where he last won his league MVP, over 10 years ago. Jokic has already done more with less than LBJ did prior to his decision, and all while the league over this same 10 year period in growth is supposedly now 'the most modern and athletic era ever'. Jokic hardly has the overall cast of 13 Miami (but they certaily do look it ) but let's give him time and see if Luca/Giannis eventually team up with him. Again, Jokic's run just happened so tell me why you already have to go to LBJ's peak year (some may have 09) just to compete with 23 Jokic if it's a no-brainer?

Jokic simply allows the flow of the game to maximize his teammates without it being his system and this is why he'll continue to dominate, barring injury, especially as his teammates improve under him and/or his organization makes more trades to strengthen the team. But if you're stuck on 13 Miami, then let's mark this post and wait a few years to see what Denver does and then we can revisit as we may not have even seen true 'peak' Jokic yet.

[uncleduck13]

If Lebron gets held to a 6 championship MJ standard then Jokic should be held to a 4.

But he is not by large crowd so jokic needs even less accolades to pass LeBron as far as I am concerned.

So Joker's already passed your boy, Durant?

Jokic is so much better than KD ever was it’s hilarious even thinking about it LOL