Jokic stats last 9 games: 27/12/13 on 80% TS

[lobosloboslobos]

in his last 4 games:

56 of 71 from the field
9 of 12 from 3
27 of 31 from the line

he took 102 shots at the basket and made 83 of them for 148 points

jesus

[ScrantonBulls]

I am having a very hard time telling if you're trolling or if you're being serious.

That poster is bensimmonsfan/camthomasfan. They were banned on their previous account for trolling. It's pretty obvious trolling.

I don't know who that is, but being fans of those two is a curious choice.

Lol good point. Here's a mod acknowledging that poster is a troll and on their 6th account. Wouldn't bother taking that poster seriously.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2477756&p=119796588&hilit=Account#p119796588

[iggymcfrack]

I think it’s time to seriously delve into the “is this the best offensive player in the history of the game” because it sure as hell looks like it

I feel like that conversation’s over. It’s absolutely Jokic, no question. The way he’s playing now has me questioning if he’s the best basketball player ever full stop.

Obviously you don’t earn that title in 10 regular season games, but if this is even remotely close to sustainable, it’s easily the best peak of all-time. No one’s played at this level before.

[The4thHorseman]

Proves that Joker still holds the torch as being the original unicorn.

[iggymcfrack]

Me neither, Jokic today scored 55 points, 6 assists, doing exactly what i asked.
And notice i never said anyone was wrong, and never bullied anyone for having a different opinion to me.

So Jokic score the points or he gets assists and others score the points.

Can you explain what I’m missing here??

The problem is if Jokic focuses on playmaking and setting up his teammates consistently there will be games where his teammates go completely cold... and when you see him averaging 12 assists you know he's focused too much on playmaking and leaving Denver at the mercy of Murray and others who can go cold any given night.

And that will cost them victories (which they cannot afford, because they need to win 65+ games just to have a chance of finishing #1 in the West, which they need for homecourt advantage in Game 7 vs. OKC).

Whereas if Jokic focuses on scoring the success rate will be greater, because he's more efficient and more consistent than all his teammates (teammates like Jamal Murray who can be streaky).

Today Jokic focused on scoring, scored 55 points and attempted 23 field goals, while Murray only attempted 16, and that's how it should be always (or at the very least Jokic should be taking more shots than Murray).

And BTW i know Denver can win plenty of games with Jokic taking a backseat (probably win 50 games like last season), but the risk of doing that ALWAYS is not something they can afford, when you know OKC is headed for 65+ wins.

That's all i'll say on this thread, because a lot of my answers are repeating the same thing

This is the first game in Jokic’s career where he scored 50 points and won. The other 4 games he was 0-4. The year the Nuggets won the title was the year he focused the most on setting up his teammates and the least on volume scoring and when they got to the playoffs, they were much more confident as a result.

The other thing that’s really key about Joker getting looks for teammates instead of for himself is that it uses up less energy and leaves him less fatigued. Joker’s biggest problem in the playoffs has been that as he plays more minutes, his efficiency and even moreso his defense do go downhill the more time he’s on the floor.

Spreading the ball around allows him to maximize his creation, keep his own shots at the highest efficiency, and be a 80th percentile defender as opposed to a 30th percentile one. While Jokic shooting more may be optimal in terms of a possession or even a quarter, it’s not the best solution in terms of winning an entire game because eventually he hits a wall when he has to do everything himself.

[CobraCommander]

give the MVP to the second best guy on earth because its a foregone conclusion Jokic is the BEST PLAYER ON EARTH BY A MILE.... think about it...MJ was miles ahead and unquestioned the best in the league...the next guy to be that much better was Shaq....then it was Lebron and Now it's jokic...

what I mean is when there is a guy that is unrivaled and its 100% understood. no one thinks anyone is better than Jokic right now...no one seriously has thought that for a few years...maybe 6...

[The4thHorseman]

That poster is bensimmonsfan/camthomasfan. They were banned on their previous account for trolling. It's pretty obvious trolling.

I don't know who that is, but being fans of those two is a curious choice.

Lol good point. Here's a mod acknowledging that poster is a troll and on their 6th account. Wouldn't bother taking that poster seriously.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2477756&p=119796588&hilit=Account#p119796588

I quit reading his stupid **** awhile back ago. Was looking for an ignore function back then to so I don't have to see his posts but couldn't find one.

[dhsilv2]

Is Jokic on track to have his best season yet and possibly win a 4th MVP?

The bar has been raised so ridiculously high for him to win MVP again I just don’t see it happening. Even though yes he’ll obviously deserve it. But many voters treat MVP like a participation trophy where guys get it based on a lifetime achievement award, or under the logic of “Well Jokic has 3 already and Luka has 0”

Who doesn't have an MVP who's of the age where we need to talk "life time awards" right now? Giannis has his. SGA his. It's Luka maybe and he 100% can make that run. But if he misses games, I'm not sure who's left that demands it?

[LeBronSpaghetti]

Is Jokic on track to have his best season yet and possibly win a 4th MVP?

The bar has been raised so ridiculously high for him to win MVP again I just don’t see it happening. Even though yes he’ll obviously deserve it. But many voters treat MVP like a participation trophy where guys get it based on a lifetime achievement award, or under the logic of “Well Jokic has 3 already and Luka has 0”

Who doesn't have an MVP who's of the age where we need to talk "life time awards" right now? Giannis has his. SGA his. It's Luka maybe and he 100% can make that run. But if he misses games, I'm not sure who's left that demands it?

Luka. And people are still talking like Wemby has been the best player in the NBA this season. That’s exactly what Shaq said last night when Jokic was brought up.

People are bored of greatness so they lower the bar. Lesser players are propped up to make the conversation interesting.

[dhsilv2]

Call me when Denver win the #1 seed over OKC with Jokic averaging 12 assists per game and only 27ppg...
Never gonna happen.

"Only" 27ppg.

Just absurd on your part.

Why would the most unstoppable scorer with the best scoring arsenal in the NBA only be scoring 27ppg in the highest scoring era in NBA history?
Why is Jokic deferring to such a less efficient streaky shooter like Jamal Murray?
Its pure undeniable logic, he's prioritizing pretty stats over winning (leaving the outcome of games in the hands of relatively unreliable shooters).

I dunno, ask someone who played in the 60's or 70's when the NBA was having it's highest scoring era in history?

The rest of this take is equally bad, but this is just a down right false statement that shows a complete lack of understanding.

[dhsilv2]

The more Jokic defers, the less likely it is that Denver will win a championship.
Denver NEED homecourt ad to win a championship, now that the West is so packed, same as last year.
Jokic's never averaged 30ppg, despite even his running mate Jamal Murray being inconsistent.
So we'll see if 27ppg and 12ppg is enough for Denver to win the West, or whether all that passing will cost them.

Amount of times Shaq averaged 30 points in his career: 0
Amount of times Hakeem averaged 30 points in his career: 0
Amount of times David Robinson averaged 30 points in his career: 0
Amount of times Tim Duncan averaged 30 points in his career: 0
Amount of times Dirk averaged 30 points in his career: 0
Amount of times KG averaged 30 points in his career: 0
Amount of times Karl Malone averaged 30 points in his career: 0

That´s the majority of the greatest PFs and Cs of all time. All of them were the main scoring option of their team for huge parts of their career.

Also, Jokic averaged 30+ points twice in his career during the playoffs. One season being the one they won the title^^.

Most of them would probably average 30 in at least a single season in this era

Malone did so that was a miss there. But the pace was very similar on the 80's. I don't see Duncan or KG scoring 30. Robinson, Shaq and Dirk likely do.

[Inspektor1312]

I don't know who that is, but being fans of those two is a curious choice.

Lol good point. Here's a mod acknowledging that poster is a troll and on their 6th account. Wouldn't bother taking that poster seriously.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2477756&p=119796588&hilit=Account#p119796588

I quit reading his stupid **** awhile back ago. Was looking for an ignore function back then to so I don't have to see his posts but couldn't find one.

Oh man you're in for a treat. Just click on the person's profile and click on "Add foe" (dunno why it's worded like that but whatever).
I have a bunch of people on the ignore list (including this dude ofc) and it's great, although you still see their posts when they get quoted by people who get baited.

[dhsilv2]

Me neither, Jokic today scored 55 points, 6 assists, doing exactly what i asked.
And notice i never said anyone was wrong, and never bullied anyone for having a different opinion to me.

I don't see why everyone is losing it over your posts - Jokic notably was more deferential against OKC and should have scored more. He's the best scorer in the league and has been for a few years now. Obviously, you don't move away from him being goat level play-maker but you definitely want him to take more shots, esp his mid-range/short shots when the playoffs begin.

Jokic is pretty much unstoppable, whereas his teammates are pretty stoppable. Last playoffs, he averaged 3 less ppg than the RS - while his team was inconsistent offensively. No question that he should have been more assertive scoring-wise.

I don't care about "he must avg 30ppg" that's arbitrary but he should absolutely seek to dominate offensively, when Jokic scores 30+ they're more likely to win than when he scores less than 30ppg.

Jokic is smart and takes what the defense gives. His priority is to try and involve his teammates because he knows he will need them all in peak form for the playoffs. But if defenses play him for the pass, he'll score.

It would be stupid to adopt bonita's mindset of just trying to arbitrarily score 35+ points a game every night in the face of double teams. The beauty of Jokic is that he always make the right decision and attacks the defense where they are weakest.

There is a very nuanced take where some players like Lebron and Jokic should sometimes make the "worse" play and shoot vs making a slightly better play and passing. Some nights you just have to realize teammates aren't shooting well and start taking those shots when slightly better play was to pass.

But that poster isn't remotely making a nuanced take like that. Sometimes you have to force it when you're the best player and others are struggling and it's actually harder for elite passers to know when to switch direction. Both Jokic and Lebron have passed too long in big moments and Jokic likely will keep doing it. But this is splitting hairs when it comes to attacking these guys. It's like leaving a girl for pointy elbows. And maybe you had a bad night from an elbow...

[dhsilv2]

I don't see why everyone is losing it over your posts - Jokic notably was more deferential against OKC and should have scored more. He's the best scorer in the league and has been for a few years now. Obviously, you don't move away from him being goat level play-maker but you definitely want him to take more shots, esp his mid-range/short shots when the playoffs begin.

Jokic is pretty much unstoppable, whereas his teammates are pretty stoppable. Last playoffs, he averaged 3 less ppg than the RS - while his team was inconsistent offensively. No question that he should have been more assertive scoring-wise.

I don't care about "he must avg 30ppg" that's arbitrary but he should absolutely seek to dominate offensively, when Jokic scores 30+ they're more likely to win than when he scores less than 30ppg.

OKC did a great job of defending him. One of the reasons he wasn't so aggressive is for that exact reason.

Agreed, but it's not like he was inefficient. He just took very few shots while his teammates missed a bunch. I don't think there's a legit argument that he shouldn't have taken more shots in game 7.

I agree with the general idea Jokic could have shot more. But he also had games of 7,6, 8, and 5 turnovers in that series. They were making is hard for him to get the ball and to then put the ball on the floor.

They won 2 games where he shot 29 and 25 times. They also lost games he shot 25 and 22 times. Meanwhile they won a game he took 14 (he did get 12 free throws). So sure he could do more...but he was also going against an all time level defensive team and forced 7 games when his team on paper shouldn't have gone 7.

[dhsilv2]

The bar has been raised so ridiculously high for him to win MVP again I just don’t see it happening. Even though yes he’ll obviously deserve it. But many voters treat MVP like a participation trophy where guys get it based on a lifetime achievement award, or under the logic of “Well Jokic has 3 already and Luka has 0”

Who doesn't have an MVP who's of the age where we need to talk "life time awards" right now? Giannis has his. SGA his. It's Luka maybe and he 100% can make that run. But if he misses games, I'm not sure who's left that demands it?

Luka. And people are still talking like Wemby has been the best player in the NBA this season. That’s exactly what Shaq said last night when Jokic was brought up.

People are bored of greatness so they lower the bar. Lesser players are propped up to make the conversation interesting.

Love Luka and he can win it as I said. But he's in his age 26 season. A career achievement type award generally doesn't happen until more like your age 30 year where you're starting to get older and people give you "credit" for higher IQ to slow down and thus your stats are ok as they are.

[nate33]

I don't see why everyone is losing it over your posts - Jokic notably was more deferential against OKC and should have scored more. He's the best scorer in the league and has been for a few years now. Obviously, you don't move away from him being goat level play-maker but you definitely want him to take more shots, esp his mid-range/short shots when the playoffs begin.

Jokic is pretty much unstoppable, whereas his teammates are pretty stoppable. Last playoffs, he averaged 3 less ppg than the RS - while his team was inconsistent offensively. No question that he should have been more assertive scoring-wise.

I don't care about "he must avg 30ppg" that's arbitrary but he should absolutely seek to dominate offensively, when Jokic scores 30+ they're more likely to win than when he scores less than 30ppg.

Jokic is smart and takes what the defense gives. His priority is to try and involve his teammates because he knows he will need them all in peak form for the playoffs. But if defenses play him for the pass, he'll score.

It would be stupid to adopt bonita's mindset of just trying to arbitrarily score 35+ points a game every night in the face of double teams. The beauty of Jokic is that he always make the right decision and attacks the defense where they are weakest.

There is a very nuanced take where some players like Lebron and Jokic should sometimes make the "worse" play and shoot vs making a slightly better play and passing. Some nights you just have to realize teammates aren't shooting well and start taking those shots when slightly better play was to pass.

But that poster isn't remotely making a nuanced take like that. Sometimes you have to force it when you're the best player and others are struggling and it's actually harder for elite passers to know when to switch direction. Both Jokic and Lebron have passed too long in big moments and Jokic likely will keep doing it. But this is splitting hairs when it comes to attacking these guys. It's like leaving a girl for pointy elbows. And maybe you had a bad night from an elbow...

Not to mention that it requires 20/20 hindsight to know whether your teammate is having an off night. If the teammate makes it, it was a the right play to pass to him. If he misses, it was the wrong play. Likewise, if Jokic looks off his teammate and instead forces up a shot against a double team and misses the shot, I'm quite sure bonita won't be out here defending Jokic for the decision to shoot. Jokic would be blamed for not passing.

Generally speaking, a halfway competent teammate getting a wide open catch-and-shoot look is a higher efficiency shot than a gifted scorer scoring against a double team.

[Lunartic]

OKC did a great job of defending him. One of the reasons he wasn't so aggressive is for that exact reason.

Agreed, but it's not like he was inefficient. He just took very few shots while his teammates missed a bunch. I don't think there's a legit argument that he shouldn't have taken more shots in game 7.

I agree with the general idea Jokic could have shot more. But he also had games of 7,6, 8, and 5 turnovers in that series. They were making is hard for him to get the ball and to then put the ball on the floor.

They won 2 games where he shot 29 and 25 times. They also lost games he shot 25 and 22 times. Meanwhile they won a game he took 14 (he did get 12 free throws). So sure he could do more...but he was also going against an all time level defensive team and forced 7 games when his team on paper shouldn't have gone 7.

Yeah that's fair but... In a game 7 against the champs with struggling teammates I'd much rather Jokic take a contested mid-range jumper or force the offense a bit versus hope Braun/Murray carry the team's offense.

Like you mentioned earlier, a slightly inefficient Jokic is still better than anyone on the Nuggets, he is that good.

Remaining aggressive instead of taking 9 fga also puts pressure on the OkC defense and can force fouls on key defenders.

[Exp0sed]

However, Jokic isn't some hyper-genius that constantly calculates the best course of action at all times and is infallible.

Yeah, he basically is a hyper genius.

Sure, he is not infallable, but he is usually right. If you want to argue that in some particular game, maybe he erred a bit too much on the side of passing rather than scoring, fine. Nobody is always perfect. But to argue like bonita does that Jokic is somehow failing this season because he is passing too much while only scoring 27 points a game is patently absurd.

Sure, I think Jokic is better versed at basketball than Bonita

But in the WCF series with OKC, he should have scored more which is what's driving Bonita's semi-troll but semi-truthful posting

He wasn't gettimg the ball, Murray played poorly, AG was banged up and MPJ was playing with one shoulder, so the Thunder were able to focus attention on Jokic and ofc, getting away with hacks\shoves etc. as long as it was done by Caruso and co.

Caruso denied Jokic the ball by blatantly fouling him off the ball

The Nuggets were also gassed playing a whole season with basically 7.5 guys and 6.5 in the playoffs

In theory, if and when Cam find his offense and shooring rythm and Murray back in form - the Thunder wouldn't be able to overload on Jokic nearly as much as they did last year

Sent from my SM-A055F using RealGM mobile app

[dhsilv2]

Jokic is smart and takes what the defense gives. His priority is to try and involve his teammates because he knows he will need them all in peak form for the playoffs. But if defenses play him for the pass, he'll score.

It would be stupid to adopt bonita's mindset of just trying to arbitrarily score 35+ points a game every night in the face of double teams. The beauty of Jokic is that he always make the right decision and attacks the defense where they are weakest.

There is a very nuanced take where some players like Lebron and Jokic should sometimes make the "worse" play and shoot vs making a slightly better play and passing. Some nights you just have to realize teammates aren't shooting well and start taking those shots when slightly better play was to pass.

But that poster isn't remotely making a nuanced take like that. Sometimes you have to force it when you're the best player and others are struggling and it's actually harder for elite passers to know when to switch direction. Both Jokic and Lebron have passed too long in big moments and Jokic likely will keep doing it. But this is splitting hairs when it comes to attacking these guys. It's like leaving a girl for pointy elbows. And maybe you had a bad night from an elbow...

Not to mention that it requires 20/20 hindsight to know whether your teammate is having an off night. If the teammate makes it, it was a the right play to pass to him. If he misses, it was the wrong play. Likewise, if Jokic looks off his teammate and instead forces up a shot against a double team and misses the shot, I'm quite sure bonita won't be out here defending Jokic for the decision to shoot. Jokic would be blamed for not passing.

Generally speaking, a halfway competent teammate getting a wide open catch-and-shoot look is a higher efficiency shot than a gifted scorer scoring against a double team.

Well those aren't close calls. But maybe Jokic has to rush a shot while a defender is COMING over to double. Or he can make a tough cross court pass to a guy who might get a look an ok look? Well depending on the player, the defenders, and the time of the game one play might have an expected return of .9 and the other .92. Jokic is likely taking the .92 and intuitively just knows it's better while the rest of us would be counting our toes to figure that one out. But if that guy's been dragging and off that night. Sometimes you just gotta take that shot.

And that's again where guys like Jokic who just have a 6th sense for the "right" play have to adjust. I couldn't do it. I can't blame them. But I do think sometimes you do just have to pick up the shoot. And I should add...Jokic does this in the playoffs already. It's just a question of if he does it the right amount. This is the most splitting of hairs of all things. But the MJ/Kobe love often makes fans assume it's always best to shoot if you're the star.

[prime1time]

Agreed, but it's not like he was inefficient. He just took very few shots while his teammates missed a bunch. I don't think there's a legit argument that he shouldn't have taken more shots in game 7.

I agree with the general idea Jokic could have shot more. But he also had games of 7,6, 8, and 5 turnovers in that series. They were making is hard for him to get the ball and to then put the ball on the floor.

They won 2 games where he shot 29 and 25 times. They also lost games he shot 25 and 22 times. Meanwhile they won a game he took 14 (he did get 12 free throws). So sure he could do more...but he was also going against an all time level defensive team and forced 7 games when his team on paper shouldn't have gone 7.

Yeah that's fair but... In a game 7 against the champs with struggling teammates I'd much rather Jokic take a contested mid-range jumper or force the offense a bit versus hope Braun/Murray carry the team's offense.

Like you mentioned earlier, a slightly inefficient Jokic is still better than anyone on the Nuggets, he is that good.

Remaining aggressive instead of taking 9 fga also puts pressure on the OkC defense and can force fouls on key defenders.

The issue isn't getting Jokic to take contested jumpers. It's about making Jokic work. Make him earn everything offensively. And forcing him to defend offensively. Anyone who has watched Jokic play the last 4 years knows this stat line is possible. The problem is that it doesn't solve their playoff problems. Beating the Nuggets is as simple as making Jokic work. Work offensively. Work defensively. Tire him out. Then at the end of games, his rotations will be a step slower. Offensively instead of him battling for good position and an easy score, he'll settle for a jumper. And because he's settling for Jumpers, defenders don't have to help and can stay glued to their man.