Horace Grant deserves way more credit

[RookieStar]

Man there's a reason a lot of these guys aren't married to 10's. Once a guy can get it, anytime he wants. He stops caring about looks beyond a point (no guys interested in a ugly girl lol). Their personality, what value they add, how they make him feel, and just their ability to make his life better is what matters. A 7 is just fine if she can do that as most 10's can't or won't even try.

That is why I said a LOYAL 10. There should be some still out there lol

There's more to it than Loyalty man. Women aren't just sex robots. Making your life better is far more than loyal and hot. Good god if that's all you need, get a sex doll.

I dunno dude, loyalty is kinda important for me in relationships. Someone you can trust as you get older in life. But to each his own.

[dhsilv2]

That is why I said a LOYAL 10. There should be some still out there lol

There's more to it than Loyalty man. Women aren't just sex robots. Making your life better is far more than loyal and hot. Good god if that's all you need, get a sex doll.

I dunno dude, loyalty is kinda important for me in relationships. Someone you can trust as you get older in life. But to each his own.

I didn't say loyalty wasn't important. That's just not enough. It's the MOST important thing once you get past...I'm attracted to you. It's a given if you're that kinda dude in terms of expected though. You'll find guys who are successful but don't have status are more focused on being hot. Once guys have status and money and are at least decently fit. It's all about a girl who makes your life better beyond looks, loyalty, and not sleeping around. And that's why so many NBA guys don't marry 10's. They take a nice 6-8 who's actually a WIFE.

[RookieStar]

There's more to it than Loyalty man. Women aren't just sex robots. Making your life better is far more than loyal and hot. Good god if that's all you need, get a sex doll.

I dunno dude, loyalty is kinda important for me in relationships. Someone you can trust as you get older in life. But to each his own.

I didn't say loyalty wasn't important. That's just not enough. It's the MOST important thing once you get past...I'm attracted to you. It's a given if you're that kinda dude in terms of expected though. You'll find guys who are successful but don't have status are more focused on being hot. Once guys have status and money and are at least decently fit. It's all about a girl who makes your life better beyond looks, loyalty, and not sleeping around. And that's why so many NBA guys don't marry 10's. They take a nice 6-8 who's actually a WIFE.

We are getting waaaaaay off topic here lol

But to end this, if im rich atheltic high status guy, why cant i be greedy and find someone both a 10 and loyal? Partner in life who will stick through thick and thin etc etc

[Ice Man]

Here's a comparison of Horace Grant's best season with the best season for Taj Gibson, with Horace's stats adjusted for the difference between 1992 and 2019 norms. That is, in economics speak, everything is shown in 2019 dollars -

Horace (1991/92) - 16/11/3 per 36 minutes, 65% TS%, 1.2 steals, 1.5 blocks
Taj (2018-2019) - 16/10/2 per 36 minutes, 61% TS%, 1.1 steals, 0.8 blocks

Taj played some damned good defense too. (He also had seasons with 2+ blocks per 36 minutes, but that was earlier in his career.)

I guess my point is that to call Horace underrated and/or a Top 100 player, it takes some pretty heroic assumptions about how much more usage Horace would have had if he had played on different teams, rather than with Mike/Scottie or Shaq/Penny. Because like Taj, Horace was a role player. A extraordinary good role player, to be sure. But a role player.

[dhsilv2]

I dunno dude, loyalty is kinda important for me in relationships. Someone you can trust as you get older in life. But to each his own.

I didn't say loyalty wasn't important. That's just not enough. It's the MOST important thing once you get past...I'm attracted to you. It's a given if you're that kinda dude in terms of expected though. You'll find guys who are successful but don't have status are more focused on being hot. Once guys have status and money and are at least decently fit. It's all about a girl who makes your life better beyond looks, loyalty, and not sleeping around. And that's why so many NBA guys don't marry 10's. They take a nice 6-8 who's actually a WIFE.[/qu
ote]

We are getting waaaaaay off topic here lol

But to end this, if im rich atheltic high status guy, why cant i be greedy and find someone both a 10 and loyal? Partner in life who will stick through thick and thin etc etc

If you think a 10 and loyal is a win...you're losing in life.

[jbsays]

I don't think he was underrated. Most recognize him as 3rd best player on those Bulls teams and a good, quality starter big for his entire career. Don't forget he also won a ring as a starter with the 01 Lakers.

[Kalamazoo317]

Horace was a 7 at best (am I on topic?)

[jerok]

Horace was more important to the first 3-peat Bulls than Rodman was to the second 3-peat. Rodman was unplayable in the ‘97 Finals and ‘98 ECF. He was getting benched for Kukoc in the playoffs.

Yea you nailed this one. Bulls dont 3 peat without Rodman but Horace Grant had more of an impact with the Bulls first 3 peat than Rodman ever had and he was a great teammate from everything i remember. Went to Orlando as the 3rd wheel to Shaq and Penny and was phenomenal for them as well. I think Grant was the type of player who could fit on any team unlike Rodman. Grant was also a more versatile player in that he wasnt a negative on the offensive end of the court. He wasnt a star but he was very much a glue guy who played his part perfectly.

This guy all over the place.

Discredits all MJ teammates in MJ vs anyone Threads.
Then does 180 in other threads.

You build for it ?

Back to the topic.

Horace was great, he is definitely under appreciated just like anyone on the Bulls run not named MJ.

[Cavsfansince84]

Here's a comparison of Horace Grant's best season with the best season for Taj Gibson, with Horace's stats adjusted for the difference between 1992 and 2019 norms. That is, in economics speak, everything is shown in 2019 dollars -

Horace (1991/92) - 16/11/3 per 36 minutes, 65% TS%, 1.2 steals, 1.5 blocks
Taj (2018-2019) - 16/10/2 per 36 minutes, 61% TS%, 1.1 steals, 0.8 blocks

Taj played some damned good defense too. (He also had seasons with 2+ blocks per 36 minutes, but that was earlier in his career.)

I guess my point is that to call Horace underrated and/or a Top 100 player, it takes some pretty heroic assumptions about how much more usage Horace would have had if he had played on different teams, rather than with Mike/Scottie or Shaq/Penny. Because like Taj, Horace was a role player. A extraordinary good role player, to be sure. But a role player.

It's fine to do these kinds of comparisons for argument's sake but now let's do two pretty common metrics in bpm and win shares. Horace's top 3 in each were 5.3, 4.0, 2.5 & 14.1, 10.4, 10.1 Taj's top 3 in each were 1.3, .8, 0.0 & 7.2, 5.7, 5.4. That is quite the difference between them. The biggest factor in Horace being a Bull wasn't being part of a 3 peat(which still got him almost no accolades at all) but getting coached by Johnny Bach who made him into an all nba level def player. Grant was considered a terrible def player at first.

[PRguy23]

Horace Grant deserves way more credit than he gets

Led League in Offensive Rating in 1991-92
10th All-Time in career Playoffs for Offensive Rating
4x All Defensive Team
Helped 1993-94 Chicago Bulls win 55 games and to Playoffs when Michael Jordan left
Helped Orlando Magic to 1994-95 Finals in his first season with the team

I know every time most hear about those first 3-peat Chicago Bulls you always hear Jordan/Pippen but rarely Horace Grant name mentioned, he rarely gets any credit for how much better he could make a team. Jordan fans hardly talk about him.

Could giving Horace Grant more credit just show how much more help Michael Jordan actually had other than just Scottie Pippen and the reason they rarely mention him?

Even Anderson Varejao, Z. Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Larry Hughes and others are criminally underrated , and some people talk like if Lebron played with G-Leaguers his first years in the league. He had a very good team, instead...

By the way, Horace Grant is a great role player, but still a role player...

Lol no agenda at all right.

[axeman23]

For sure. Just like Jerry Krause deserves way more credit for finding these guys. I love MJ but he still petty AF with that. Imagine if Karuse had listened to MJ..... they would have had Joe Wolf instead of Horace

If Krause had his way, he would have fired Phil and traded Pippen.

He deserves credit for finding the guys, but he wasn't flawless and he was awful towards the later end of his career.

And if Jordan had HIS way, Pippen would never have donned a Bulls jersey for a single game, instead the Bulls would've selected Wolf, and Pippen was never falling to 10. But, sure: Krause's fault!

[TheGOATRises007]

For sure. Just like Jerry Krause deserves way more credit for finding these guys. I love MJ but he still petty AF with that. Imagine if Karuse had listened to MJ..... they would have had Joe Wolf instead of Horace

If Krause had his way, he would have fired Phil and traded Pippen.

He deserves credit for finding the guys, but he wasn't flawless and he was awful towards the later end of his career.

And if Jordan had HIS way, Pippen would never have donned a Bulls jersey for a single game, instead the Bulls would've selected Wolf, and Pippen was never falling to 10. But, sure: Krause's fault!

I never said Jordan was a good GM.

Krause had his share of his blunders and he did his best to derail the dynasty and he was awful afterwards.

[ScrantonBulls]

Horace Grant deserves way more credit than he gets

Led League in Offensive Rating in 1991-92
10th All-Time in career Playoffs for Offensive Rating
4x All Defensive Team
Helped 1993-94 Chicago Bulls win 55 games and to Playoffs when Michael Jordan left
Helped Orlando Magic to 1994-95 Finals in his first season with the team

I know every time most hear about those first 3-peat Chicago Bulls you always hear Jordan/Pippen but rarely Horace Grant name mentioned, he rarely gets any credit for how much better he could make a team. Jordan fans hardly talk about him.

Could giving Horace Grant more credit just show how much more help Michael Jordan actually had other than just Scottie Pippen and the reason they rarely mention him?

Even Anderson Varejao, Z. Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Larry Hughes and others are criminally underrated , and some people talk like if Lebron played with G-Leaguers his first years in the league. He had a very good team, instead...

By the way, Horace Grant is a great role player, but still a role player...

Lol no agenda at all right.

Talk about rent free, lmao.

[ScrantonBulls]

If Krause had his way, he would have fired Phil and traded Pippen.

He deserves credit for finding the guys, but he wasn't flawless and he was awful towards the later end of his career.

And if Jordan had HIS way, Pippen would never have donned a Bulls jersey for a single game, instead the Bulls would've selected Wolf, and Pippen was never falling to 10. But, sure: Krause's fault!

I never said Jordan was a good GM.

Krause had his share of his blunders and he did his best to derail the dynasty and he was awful afterwards.

Yeah, he only made a number of pivotal moves that resulted in a 6 championship dynasty. But outside of those championships he wasn't that good. What a bum!

The Jerry Krause discourse from some people is hilarious. Truly mindboggling to me when people try to paint him as some mediocre GM.

[TheGOATRises007]

And if Jordan had HIS way, Pippen would never have donned a Bulls jersey for a single game, instead the Bulls would've selected Wolf, and Pippen was never falling to 10. But, sure: Krause's fault!

I never said Jordan was a good GM.

Krause had his share of his blunders and he did his best to derail the dynasty and he was awful afterwards.

Yeah, he only made a number of pivotal moves that resulted in a 6 championship dynasty. But outside of those championships he wasn't that good. What a bum!

The Jerry Krause discourse from some people is hilarious. Truly mindboggling to me when people try to paint him as some mediocre GM.

Never said he was a bum.

But he wanted to replace Jackson with Tim Floyd. And he wanted to do it while the Bulls came off a 72 win season.

He had his flaws. And his work post-dynasty doesn't lead me to believe he was an exceptional GM.

You can think what you want. Everyone here knows your shtick.

[JN61]

We all know this is veiled thread to bash Jordan. Tired. Yawn.

[The4thHorseman]

The Jordan/Pippen/Grant Bulls had plenty of depth to win those 3 championships, but calling those teams stacked is nothing more than James fans trying to diminish Jordan.

91 Bulls main supporting cast minus Jordan/Pippen
Grant 13/8
Cartwright 10/6
Paxson 9/3
BJ 9/4
King 5/3


92 Bulls main supporting cast minus Jordan/Pippen
Grant 14/10
Cartwright 8/5
BJ 10/3
Paxson 7/3
King 7/3

93 Bulls main supporting cast minus Jordan/Pippen
Grant 13/10
BJ 12/4/2
Catrwright 5/4
Williams 6/6
Paxson 4/2

There were numerous playoff teams in both conferences that had better depth then those Bulls teams. This thread went from calling out some love for Grant, which he deserves, to calling those Bulls teams stacked. James fans lmao

It's hard to argue with the team lost MJ and won 55 games the next year and two guys who'd never been allstar were. Which makes the hash tag lines a bit misleading. Obviously, you can score more when MJ's shots have to get distributed and it turned out they could do pretty decently with more shots.

Now I don't agree that for the first run that team was "stacked" but it had likely the best big 3 by a good margin. Now the second 3 peet was stacked. Rodman and Toni in a post expansion league was just unfair. Minus 98 as Rodman wasn't still rodman at all.

He definitely was past his prime, but did win the rebounding title that year for the final time... his 7th consecutive.

He wasn't a starter in the 98 Finals although was 4th on the team in MP at a little over 30mpg. Phil must've saw he still had some good minutes left in the tank to have him out there that long per game.

[Luke]

Even Anderson Varejao, Z. Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Larry Hughes and others are criminally underrated , and some people talk like if Lebron played with G-Leaguers his first years in the league. He had a very good team, instead...

By the way, Horace Grant is a great role player, but still a role player...

Lol no agenda at all right.

Talk about rent free, lmao.

Does Mamba live rent free in your head too ?

By the way, I was reacting at the constant attempts by Lebron's fans and Klutch influencers to try to take down other all time greats to prop up their fake king... Every teammate of MJ, Kobe, Joker, Curry... is underrated, while the king always played with trash teammates and " carried" all the teams where he played. Now it's Horace Grant's turn. Read better the OP post and tell me if it is a guy who wants to give his due credit to Horace Grant ( which is a good thing) , or if he is subtly trying to say that MJ had more help than his guy...

[dhsilv2]

The Jordan/Pippen/Grant Bulls had plenty of depth to win those 3 championships, but calling those teams stacked is nothing more than James fans trying to diminish Jordan.

91 Bulls main supporting cast minus Jordan/Pippen
Grant 13/8
Cartwright 10/6
Paxson 9/3
BJ 9/4
King 5/3


92 Bulls main supporting cast minus Jordan/Pippen
Grant 14/10
Cartwright 8/5
BJ 10/3
Paxson 7/3
King 7/3

93 Bulls main supporting cast minus Jordan/Pippen
Grant 13/10
BJ 12/4/2
Catrwright 5/4
Williams 6/6
Paxson 4/2

There were numerous playoff teams in both conferences that had better depth then those Bulls teams. This thread went from calling out some love for Grant, which he deserves, to calling those Bulls teams stacked. James fans lmao

It's hard to argue with the team lost MJ and won 55 games the next year and two guys who'd never been allstar were. Which makes the hash tag lines a bit misleading. Obviously, you can score more when MJ's shots have to get distributed and it turned out they could do pretty decently with more shots.

Now I don't agree that for the first run that team was "stacked" but it had likely the best big 3 by a good margin. Now the second 3 peet was stacked. Rodman and Toni in a post expansion league was just unfair. Minus 98 as Rodman wasn't still rodman at all.

He definitely was past his prime, but did win the rebounding title that year for the final time... his 7th consecutive.

He wasn't a starter in the 98 Finals although was 4th on the team in MP at a little over 30mpg. Phil must've saw he still had some good minutes left in the tank to have him out there that long per game.

It's not just the finals. In the finals I get it. They needed him to defend Malone so his minutes went back up. But look at the Indy series which people forget was the tougher series for the bulls that year.

But on the season the bulls were -2.8 with Rodman on the court and +5.5 in the playoffs. Now that's imo a bit misleading as Rodman played about 40 a game in the first 2 rounds and then phil dropped him to 29.9 for the conference finals and finals combined. It was pretty obvious that if nothing else, Jackson didn't feel Rodman could give him his best for high minutes at that point. Or he just liked Toni's offense better. Thought perhaps to your point I should note that Rodman on paper was better in 98 then the 97 playoffs.

So by no means am I saying he was done or anything. But he wasn't having the impact he used to have, and Jackson felt he needed to play less as the games got more important.

[PRguy23]

Lol no agenda at all right.

Talk about rent free, lmao.

Does Mamba live rent free in your head too ?

By the way, I was reacting at the constant attempts by Lebron's fans and Klutch influencers to try to take down other all time greats to prop up their fake king... Every teammate of MJ, Kobe, Joker, Curry... is underrated, while the king always played with trash teammates and " carried" all the teams where he played. Now it's Horace Grant's turn. Read better the OP post and tell me if it is a guy who wants to give his due credit to Horace Grant ( which is a good thing) , or if he is subtly trying to say that MJ had more help than his guy...

Yet no one mentioned the guy you did. So both of them live rent free in your head. One you have a obsessed desire to defend. The other you have a obsessed hatred for because they passed your boy long ago and have the burning desire to rip apart even if it means your so called favorite team fails. Makes perfect sense.