The Tank Debate Thread

[Reignman]

This thread should be closed. There hasn't been and there isn't any evidence of a tank happening.

[jvuc]

To tank, or not to tank, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Lottery and Ping Pong Balls of outrageous Fortune

That's all I got

[Just Win Baby]

This thread should be closed. There hasn't been and there isn't any evidence of a tank happening.

Nor any good ideas on how we go about tanking.

[jvuc]

To tank, or not to tank, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Lottery and Ping Pong Balls of outrageous Fortune

That's all I got

Tanking's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That chucks and lays bricks during his hour upon the court
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.

[ansoncarter]

This thread should be closed. There hasn't been and there isn't any evidence of a tank happening.

no it needs to be stickied until enough of our fanbase figures out what treadmilling is and why it is killing Toronto sports teams

plus there should be a history lesson attached to it. The state of the team each of the previous 17 offseasons, what direction the raptors chose to take, and what type of success it led to

[ATLTimekeeper]

I think that regardless of who put the offer on the table, both teams had to agree to do the deal. As far as we know, no such offer has been presented to Masai for him to accept or decline, so it's very difficult to point to a situation such as Philly's and say "well, we should have done that". We should have won the lottery too.

I don't think we should have made that trade, I think that Philadelphia decided they valued this upcoming draft and paid the price. It's not that hard and we could have done it. We don't need to get back good value for Rudy or whomever to justify going for a franchise player in a rookie deal. The results that follow are what's important, not the interim. I think I argued the opposite (your case) earlier in the year, but I've flipped.

I think Both Ujiri and Leiweke have been very clear that they don't want to tread water either. They want to win championships. I think that's a pretty clear vision. Again, the opportunity has to present itself in order to make a move. Ujiri already made a huge one in offloading Bargnani, and I don't doubt he'll do it again when he's able to.

It's not exactly a unique vision, which is why you need to show more than just desire to win a championship. Otherwise we're relying on The Secret. I think that "being at a crossroads" is pretty damn close to treading water, personally.

[IvanIV]

I think I'm in the minority, but I'd have done the Rudy for CV and Stuckey deal.

[CoachJReturns]

This thread should be closed. There hasn't been and there isn't any evidence of a tank happening.

There's no evidence of us making the playoffs either(ESPN ranking us 11th, Vegas about the same). Should we stop all basketball related discussion then?

[Wasp]

I think that regardless of who put the offer on the table, both teams had to agree to do the deal. As far as we know, no such offer has been presented to Masai for him to accept or decline, so it's very difficult to point to a situation such as Philly's and say "well, we should have done that". We should have won the lottery too.

I don't think we should have made that trade, I think that Philadelphia decided they valued this upcoming draft and paid the price. It's not that hard and we could have done it. We don't need to get back good value for Rudy or whomever to justify going for a franchise player in a rookie deal. The results that follow are what's important, not the interim. I think I argued the opposite (your case) earlier in the year, but I've flipped.

Philly's trade is completely different from a proposed Gay for garbage trade. They gave up value in a young All-Star point guard, but also got back tremendous value in Noel and a 2014 1st. Trading Gay for nothing would be giving up value without receiving any in return.

I think Both Ujiri and Leiweke have been very clear that they don't want to tread water either. They want to win championships. I think that's a pretty clear vision. Again, the opportunity has to present itself in order to make a move. Ujiri already made a huge one in offloading Bargnani, and I don't doubt he'll do it again when he's able to.

It's not exactly a unique vision, which is why you need to show more than just desire to win a championship. Otherwise we're relying on The Secret. I think that "being at a crossroads" is pretty damn close to treading water, personally.

Houston was "treading water" until they made the Harden / D12 moves. Indy was "treading water" with their late lottery pick (George), mid-1st rounder big (Hibbert), and veteran signings (West) and they were within one game of the Finals. Memphis was "treading water" until they lucked out in the Gasol trade (who would've thought fat Marc would turn into a top-5 C?) and rejuvenated the careers of ZBo and Allen. There's more than one way to win in this league.

The best way to run a team is to be patient and pounce on value when the opportunities arise. If someone was offering a good prospect, a 1st rounder and expirings for Rudy, you don't think MU would do it just because of some strict dedication to the anti-tank? He's set himself up to be flexible in which direction he wants to go, depending on the offers he receives and the performance of the team. My view is, if we see an opportunity to move Gay/DD/Lowry for good value (prospects, picks, expirings), we should jump on it and rebuild. However, if we don't, we shouldn't set the franchise back for 5+ years by throwing away our assets to chase a high draft pick. That's not how you win in the NBA.

[Inevitable]

Tanking mid-season is a bad idea. It's either go all in now or don't. We won't be the only team that will decide to tank at the mid-season. There will be a few teams that will do it because of under performance or because of injuries.

[jvuc]

Philly's trade is completely different from a proposed Gay for garbage trade. They gave up value in a young All-Star point guard, but also got back tremendous value in Noel and a 2014 1st. Trading Gay for nothing would be giving up value without receiving any in return.

Hypothetically, Lowry for the 6th pick (2013) + 2014th pick would be considered though I don't think the raptors would get that return on Lowry. Perhaps Lowry for 2013th pick is possible but his contract is not great either.

I think the best possibilities that existed were
1. Celtics/Net trade which the raptors would need to offer some combo of RG/DD/AJ in exchange for Humphries,Wallace and Brooks and the Nets 2014 and other picks. Obviously Pierce and Garnett are a nicer package so this point is mute
2. Some how get in the 3 way trade with Iggy to the GSW. And so Biedrins, Rush, Jefferson and 2014 1st + other picks for Gay. This is more reasonable but Iggy was a sign and trade that allowed the GSW to offload salary, whereas RG contract was more expensive and expiring.

That leaves the Stuckey+Villa trade for Gay which is a terrible return. But that aside, it simply weakens the team from playoff potential to 10 to 12 pick but doesn't quite accomplish a proper tank. I suspect Masai looked at these opportunities but nothing made sense for the team.

[ansoncarter]

Trading Gay for nothing would be giving up value without receiving any in return.

the return is a potential franchise changing player at the top of the draft

Houston was "treading water" until they made the Harden / D12 moves.

and they get neither of those players if they aren't in a prime free agent city of choice, with incredible taxes for athletes. Toronto can't copy anything they do

Indy was "treading water" with their late lottery pick (George), mid-1st rounder big (Hibbert),

counting on mid 1st round picks would be almost as crazy as counting on star free agents showing up

throwing away our assets to chase a high draft pick. That's not how you win in the NBA.

high draft picks really are how you win in the nba though. 90% of the nba's best players were found at the top of the draft. And nearly every great team in history drafted their best player/s. The ones who didn't are in the extreme minority and did it by signing star free agents, which isnt' an option open to Toronto anyway.

[cookieman]

I don't think you can make excuses for Masai. If he wanted to, he could have moved Lowry for the Dallas #13 pick and possibly a future first (or 2 seconds). Pick Schroeder, start him all year. Dump Gay's big ticket for whatever. Many of us wanted to see something like that.

As ATL points out, seemingly less tank-friendly teams got it done while we did not. Let's not spread BS that Ujiri was forced into a non-tanking corner.

No one is making excuses.

What I am saying is that you are asking Masai to be a different GM than the one that we hired. He has made a reputation on being shrewd, patient, and diligent.

You basically want him to be Colangelo and come in guns blazing turning over the whole roster in one season.

That's not who we hired.

Many people on here are making excuses, actually. You yourself are excusing Masai because you feel it's just not in his personality to make quick and sweeping change. Never mind he has already traded Bargnani, amnestied Kleiza, bought out Camby, released Jl3, signed 3 new players, replaced several assistant coaches, and turned over most of the front office, many of whom he worked closely with for years. That's a guns blazing kind of start in my books.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Many people on here are making excuses, actually. You yourself are excusing Masai because you feel it's just not in his personality to make quick and sweeping change. Never mind he has already traded Bargnani, amnestied Kleiza, bought out Camby, released Jl3, signed 3 new players, replaced several assistant coaches, and turned over most of the front office, many of whom he worked closely with for years. That's a guns blazing kind of start in my books.

Not to mention he tried hard to get into the draft (as high as #2) AND was rebuked by Doc Rivers after trying to flip DeMar for Bledsoe. It's not like he hasn't been sitting back and biding his time. He's been trying to do stuff, but it seems like his failure to make moves over the past month has inspired the direction of the team this year. Down the road, that could mean we miss out on a franchise talent. If he was just being a stingy bargainer, it'll have to pay off for him in the long-term or the fans will turn on him. It's worth noting that Ujiri completely overhauled the entire Denver roster in three years. He made sweeping changes and was only really patient in the Melo negotiation.

[Viatical]

re: The Pacers' turnaround

It was that coaching change in 2011, mid-season, from Jim O'Brien (17-27) to Frank Vogel (20-18) with the same players, that did the most to change the culture of the team and put the Pacers back on the winning track. Good free agent pickups (David West) and breakout seasons by younger players (Paul George) certainly helped, but it was the coaching change that started it all for them.

I'll probably never stop mentioning that until Dwane Casey is finally fired.

[SkywalkerAC]

re: The Pacers' turnaround

It was that coaching change in 2011, mid-season, from Jim O'Brien (17-27) to Frank Vogel (20-18) with the same players, that did the most to change the culture of the team and put the Pacers back on the winning track. Good free agent pickups (David West) and breakout seasons by younger players (Paul George) certainly helped, but it was the coaching change that started it all for them.

I'll probably never stop mentioning that until Dwane Casey is finally fired.

Well, does anyone really expect Masai to keep him around after next season? I think he'd have to win a round of the playoffs to stay on.

[Viatical]

re: The Pacers' turnaround

It was that coaching change in 2011, mid-season, from Jim O'Brien (17-27) to Frank Vogel (20-18) with the same players, that did the most to change the culture of the team and put the Pacers back on the winning track. Good free agent pickups (David West) and breakout seasons by younger players (Paul George) certainly helped, but it was the coaching change that started it all for them.

I'll probably never stop mentioning that until Dwane Casey is finally fired.

Well, does anyone really expect Masai to keep him around after next season? I think he'd have to win a round of the playoffs to stay on.

Keeping Casey on only makes sense if he is being used as a ready scapegoat, and if Masai-ah has a coaching switch in mind mid-season or else next summer.

Hopefully a winning season doesn't change that plan. The last thing the Raptors need is to have finally assembled some nice talent, enough to stumble their way into a low playoff seed in the East, and we guess meeting those expectations next season. Because the trap there is that they'd still be saddled with a coach who doesn't know how to maximize the talent he's given, but the talent itself still somehow vindicates him. It would be the Raptors' version of a Scott Brooks situation.

(or even, for older fans, say, a Paul Westphal situation, another guy who was routinely blessed with talent he often had no idea what to do with)

[DatBoiCapspace]

I don’t think that he’ll ever commit whole hog to tanking because it tends to kill flexibility and the odds are too long that you actually get a payout at the end worthy of the sacrifice.

you’d probably lose value in any transaction that respects the hopes of being bad enough next year to ‘compete’ with the league’s worst teams. Losing value in a trade is almost never a good management strategy, and it certainly runs counter to Ujiri’s history as a team GM.

Tanking is an ugly business, and despite the strategy’s growing number of supporters, it guarantees nothing and hasn’t exactly proven to be a more viable path to rebuilding than any other route. Like I said, it’s a strategy, one of many, and not one that I think the Raptors would benefit from employing in the immediate future.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/07/ ... r-tanking/

People need to stare at these three Chisholm quotes until their brains soak it up.

This tank or treadmill debate is total bogus, you have been lied to. The reality is tanking actually tends to lead a team to the treadmill more then building on our situation would.

Losing value in trades is the dumbest thing we can do now in our situation, we should look to acquire assets instead of dumping them for more ping pong balls, thats not a real plan and thats not Masais way.

[RealRapsFan]

I don’t think that he’ll ever commit whole hog to tanking because it tends to kill flexibility and the odds are too long that you actually get a payout at the end worthy of the sacrifice.

you’d probably lose value in any transaction that respects the hopes of being bad enough next year to ‘compete’ with the league’s worst teams. Losing value in a trade is almost never a good management strategy, and it certainly runs counter to Ujiri’s history as a team GM.

Tanking is an ugly business, and despite the strategy’s growing number of supporters, it guarantees nothing and hasn’t exactly proven to be a more viable path to rebuilding than any other route. Like I said, it’s a strategy, one of many, and not one that I think the Raptors would benefit from employing in the immediate future.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/07/ ... r-tanking/

People need to stare at these three Chisholm quotes until their brains soak it up.

This tank or treadmill debate is total bogus, you have been lied to. The reality is tanking actually tends to lead a team to the treadmill more then building on our situation would.

Losing value in trades is the dumbest thing we can do now in our situation, we should look to acquire assets instead of dumping them for more ping pong balls, thats not a real plan and thats not Masais way.

How do those quotes prove or support anything?


- nothing is guaranteed. That strawman has been covered 32,000 times
- 'flexibility' and tanking or not tanking are completely independant. Masai could trade, say Lowry for a bad contract and a high pick - which would reduce flexibility. Or he could trade, say Demar for an expiring useless player and gain flexibility.
- the odds of a reward from tanking may or may not be long but they are greater than trying to obtain that same reward any other way
- losing value only happens if you don't successful use the draft. Sam Presti traded a HoF player in Ray Allen at his peak for a #6 pick. It helped him net Russel Westbrook when they lost games. Cleveland traded Mo Williams for Baron Davis and a lottery pick, that lottery pick became Kyrie Irving. Thats clearly great value.

Chisolms write up in no way counters the tank argument. In fact most of the arguments he makes are mutually exclusive from each other.

What Chisolm is claiming is that since the Raptors can't get ideal returns on their players, because their players are not valuable enough (ie. Gay/Lowry/DD), therefore they shouldn't tank. Which is ridiculous. If the Raptors players were valuable, there would be no reason to tank as the team would most likely be good and/or have great assets to trade.

Its a wasted write up - its pure 'we should accept mediocrity this year again'. Another great example of how irrelevant Toronto's media personnel is.

[BackseatBoss]

I don’t think that he’ll ever commit whole hog to tanking because it tends to kill flexibility and the odds are too long that you actually get a payout at the end worthy of the sacrifice.

you’d probably lose value in any transaction that respects the hopes of being bad enough next year to ‘compete’ with the league’s worst teams. Losing value in a trade is almost never a good management strategy, and it certainly runs counter to Ujiri’s history as a team GM.

Tanking is an ugly business, and despite the strategy’s growing number of supporters, it guarantees nothing and hasn’t exactly proven to be a more viable path to rebuilding than any other route. Like I said, it’s a strategy, one of many, and not one that I think the Raptors would benefit from employing in the immediate future.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/07/ ... r-tanking/

People need to stare at these three Chisholm quotes until their brains soak it up.

This tank or treadmill debate is total bogus, you have been lied to. The reality is tanking actually tends to lead a team to the treadmill more then building on our situation would.

Losing value in trades is the dumbest thing we can do now in our situation, we should look to acquire assets instead of dumping them for more ping pong balls, thats not a real plan and thats not Masais way.

Tell that to Cavs, who after getting LeBron went to the finals without having any other good players. Tell that to Miami, who won the championship mainly because of Wade and formed the big three again mainly because of Wade. Tell that to Denver, who were able to get to the Western Conference finals mainly because of Melo and then were able to flip him for a whole bunch of assets. Tell that to 76ers, who only because of AI were able to get to the finals. Tell that to Magic, who were able to get to the finals mainly because of Dwight. If that's considered being a treadmill team, sign me up. Or do you want to be a real treadmill team and always hope to get lucky enough to get the 6-8th seed at the last moment possible to just get demolished in the 1st round?