OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[chifan1798]

But I don't get ones like this or the flu vaccine.

I can certainly understand why you would lump vaccines into two categories of permanent immunity worth getting and yearly's not worth getting.

I don't feel it's effective in preventing or killing covid. It is a good preventative treatment for some.

This vastly undersells the impact of the vaccine.

I don't believe in a vaccine that requires the vaccinated to be protected from the unvaccinated.

All vaccines work that way for the most part, it's just that most of the vaccines you get in childhood have 99% of the population take them and aren't trying to prevent the spread of something that is rampant around the country.

I don't want to take a new type of technology and sign away any rights I have in case something bad happens from it. I don't believe I'm at a significant risk.

Also understand the nervousness around both these points, especially at the beginning. Now the results of the vaccine are extraordinarily well studied though.

And in the end, I believe this type of imperfect vaccination will create worse and worse mutations.

Worse mutations and more mutations will come from the virus spreading more which will happen due to less vaccination.

Lastly, I don't like the politicization of this topic.

Agreed.

Remember when it was a conspiracy theory about vaccine mandates and our president wouldn't take "Trumps vaccine". What the hell happened to the party of my body my choice?

I don't remember it ever being viewed as a conspiracy theory that there would be vaccine mandates. You are mandated to take many vaccines and the idea that this might be another isn't a conspiracy. It was a pretty logical outcome that was going to happen. If you told me in April of 2020 that people would be forced to take a COVID vaccine to go to school or to work at large companies I wouldn't have been even remotely surprised by that.

Your body your choice isn't true in many other cases with diseases that aren't rampantly killing people at this exact moment. You have almost certainly been vaccinated for MMR, Smallpox, Polio, and other things whether you wanted to be or not, and the idea that you would be forced to get a vaccine for something that is shutting down the world was a logical outcome. To me, this seems like something people said was a conspiracy theory after the fact and not at the time, but again, this gets into a "they" say its a conspiracy theory or "they" said it wouldn't happen. I'm not part of either they. If you told me it would happen a year and a half ago, I'd have said you're darn right it will.

I'm not sure what you mean by Trump's vaccine or which president wasn't going to take it (Trump or Biden) and have no idea what political piece you are referring to there (not saying you're wrong, I'm literally ignorant to what you are referring to, I don't follow a whole lot of politics).

I don't like the tone that people take and the elmination of discussion or personal choice. I believe it's a very slippery slope. Have you heard Don Lemmon speak about the unvaccinated? He wants to strip peoples abilities to work, get around, go shopping, eat..... It's disgusting.

By living in a society, you give up many personal choices (or at least you have consequences for making them pushed upon you by society). Society at large decides which things you have choices about and which you don't. Being forced to take a vaccines for an on-going epidemic disease is pretty far away from the place I'd draw the line on where my concerns over personal freedom are being eroded.

Quite frankly, in an on-going epidemic, I think it is within reason to strip the ability of people to visit public places where they place others at risk when they have a very clear method of reducing that risk massively. Again, vaccines for an on-going epidemic wouldn't be the personal place I would draw the line on such things, but I understand the point of not wanting any lines drawn, but then again, that is the cost of living in any society. Some societies draw them more tightly and some more loosely, and of course we don't really get to choose. It's not like either your or I could trivially say "I didn't choose this set of societal rules" and move to New Zealand with no consequences. We are somewhat born into whatever rules exist where we are born with somewhat limited means of reasonably escaping those rules. In that sense, I can understand why you would also fight to shape the rules of your society to your desired state.

There are certainly a wide number of people whom are against any rules/regulations, think the government is out to get them, and push back against all sorts of things. In many ways, I'm thankful for these people, because while I don't think the government is at the center or evil plots to insert microchips and control people, the government absolutely needs a watchful public pressuring it at all times. Same with erosion of freedoms and other areas. Without people doing that we are constantly under threat.

This isn't one of those situations that I feel needs that type of pressure though. Again, billions of vaccine doses have been given. 100s of millions of COVID cases are out there. This is well studied on both ends, no matter who you are, the vaccine is a lower mathematical risk of bad outcomes for you and a vaccinated population protects everyone better.

yeah, it was a pretty big conspiracy about vaccine passports being required in places. Certainly hasn't happened that way before in any sort of recent history.

I don't really see it as a public good. The vaccinated are still spreaders. This vaccine doesn't really reduce transmitability or kill or prevent the virus. The only real person at risk by not being vaccinated is the unvaccinated.

I'm glad you brought up public safety. Did you know cars kill 3x people a year as the virus? Are we going to be restricting auto travel? Lot's more lives are at stake.

And sorry Doug, the opinion to strip peoples rights for a not very effective (doesn't kill, prevent or eliminate the virus) vaccine is absolutely disgusting to me. Sorry, I won't be visiting this forum for a bit. I'm all for discourse but this an absolutely disgusting, repulsive and preverted thought. I'm very offended that anyone could suggest that in this day in age. It's disturbing to see you prevert the vision of the country and I'm going to say something that can't be taken back. You should personally be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting something like that. We abort more lives in a year than this virus takes. If it's about saving lives........

You should check your stats before posting. Cars don’t kill 3x’s as many people a year as the virus. From 2020, the deaths in the US from motor vehicle accidents was about 39,000….no where near the 600,000+ from COVID. What you probably did, is tried to extrapolate world wide deaths from MVA’s, and compare it to US only COVID deaths. So basically, COVID causes significantly more deaths than accidents. As I’ve posted before, it’s the third leading cause of death in this country. And if it was a full year of 2020 data, and the pandemic started in late December, and not until March, it probably would have been in second place, only behind heart disease.

[dice]

“I hate the government so I’m going to risk dying of covid” is one of the dumbest positions ever.

In the era of Q, the intentionally fraudulent attack on democratic elections, and defense of a murderous insurrection, it’s becoming very challenging to rank the severity of stupidity.

These are revealing times, and the revelation is that America is really **** stupid.

OT, but that arizona audit that many on the right pinned their hopes on? the one that was conducted by a Q believer w/o any experience in the field? after 6 months of collecting checks...

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-elections-arizona-phoenix-conspiracy-theories-d38321441bcd6cea58421f6871b4f74e

now trump has secured an audit of texas...which he won

[waffle]

In my experience it is likely that side effects from the Covid vaccines are underreported via VAERS. It is the same thing with side effects that occur in response to standard medications given in my hospitals.

Is this like when based on your experience Delta was caused by vaccines despite occurring in India in 2020 where there were no vaccines or how in your experience, despite being vaccinated, you are quite certain that it is Ivermectin that has stopped you from getting COVID rather than a vaccine against COVID?

Then again there is JUST AS MUCH CHANCE that they are being over reported because people are on such high alert about it. In fact I think that is far more likely

[coldfish]

Generally stepping back and looking at the big picture, things are looking up.
- Positivity has gone from over 10% to 7.5% and is dropping fast
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/individual-states
- Cases are well off their peak
- Hospitalizations are well off their peak
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#hospitalizations
- No variant has popped up which is drastically outperforming delta (1.1.194 should be watched)
- Deaths seem to have peaked
- India has not seen a major wave after their delta wave

Lots of people have hypothesis as to what is going on and why but no one really knows. This may spring back up or like Gottlieb has recently said, this might be the last major wave before it starts acting like an endemic virus. I will say that a recent serology study had 83% of americans showing antibodies to covid19 in May. That was before the big delta spike. We might be to the point where just about everyone has some immunity by vaccine or infection.

https://www.aabb.org/news-resources/news/article/2021/09/10/blood-donor-survey-suggests-that-83-of-americans-have-covid-19-antibodies

[waffle]

It is ignorant, because you can sum up all the risks of the vaccine and of COVID and you can find that the risks of COVID are an order of magnitude more likely to happen and also have worse outcomes. If there are specific individuals who have different risk factors for one reason or another, then that's a different consideration, but I'm not aware of what those risk factors would be or who those people would be.



Every vaccine you have gotten since birth has a similar type of risk to the COVID vaccine for something which is less deadly, and you did not have a choice (nor did your parents) for the most part.



Except that's not how society works.



The mortality rate in the US is 1.6% across all ages and body types, so that would be 98.4% survival rate. However, this assumes that only survival matters which is a pretty poor way of assessing a situation. That number is likely improved considerably by 50% of the country being vaccinated as well.



Again, you made a statement that isn't backed up by numbers. The numbers you quote are factually incorrect.



This argument is hilarious because it shows complete ignorance as to how vaccines and infection work. It's like someone made up something that sounds smart enough that the ignorant people who want something to quote can pick it up and say, but it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about, because anyone that has spent an hour of their life or done any cursory research on vaccines / infection would simply laugh at this idea.



Except that this isn't true. The death rate of COVID towards a normal healthy adult is 1/10,000. Do you really think that many people are dying in lightning strikes? The risk of serious negative side effects from the vaccine are less than the death rate of COVID on healthy people, and it ignores that the risks of serious side effects of the actual virus on health people are another 10x more likely. You are about 100x more likely to have a severely negative event from COVID than the vaccine as a young healthy person.

If you aren't a young healthy person the odds are way more against you and the choice becomes clearer.

Again, you will probably be fine with your choice. Your odds of a highly negative event are still low (maybe 1/100 vs 1/10000). It doesn't make it a good choice though. Quoting incorrect numbers and repeating factually incorrect arguments and truisms doesn't make it an objectively good choice. You can look at the billions of data points and objectively, getting the vaccine is a better choice. Again, you'll probably be fine, and I hope you (and everyone else who doesn't get the vaccine) is fine and the vast majority of you will be.

Actually, society does work the way of my body, my choice.

you are required to be vaccinated to go to school and join the military, so...nope

Clearly, you believe in tyranny and a one size fits all approach no matter how you justify the circumstances.

clearly you believe in false data

Why is this sudden use of the "my body my choice" among anti-vacr's? What about unwanted pregnancies I wonder...

Do you monitor everything you eat with as much oversight? How about what you breath? Ever had a drink? Taken drugs? Why this sudden INTENSE issue with something that has been proven not only safe, but often time LIFE SAVING, and not just for you, but sometimes for the people you love? Isn't that a bit weird? WHY THIS?

The difference here is that you are affecting other people NOT JUST YOURSELF. I only wear a mask to protect YOU (the un-vaccinated).

It's a very very very weird perspective.

[Almost Retired]

Covid19 - The Spartacus Letter
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/damn-you-hell-you-will-not-destroy-america-here-spartacus-covid-letter-thats-gone-viral

[DuckIII]

Covid19 - The Spartacus Letter
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/damn-you-hell-you-will-not-destroy-america-here-spartacus-covid-letter-thats-gone-viral

Jesus **** Christ.

[dougthonus]

the problem for me is that it's not all about COVID risk. i've said from the very beginning that, short of overflowing hospitals, i'm open to a wide range of ideas for dealing with this as a society. unfortunately, in some places hospitals are back to overflowing, restricting the ability to treat people with non-COVID illnesses. that's unacceptable. so while part of me is tired of wearing a mask in order to protect those who have chosen for no good reason not to be vaccinated, i understand why i am asked to do so. and part of me even cares about those who have been manipulated into thinking that being vaccinated is a bad idea

If this is true, I'd agree with that too. I wasn't aware we were back to where hospitals are overflowing again.

[League Circles]

the problem for me is that it's not all about COVID risk. i've said from the very beginning that, short of overflowing hospitals, i'm open to a wide range of ideas for dealing with this as a society. unfortunately, in some places hospitals are back to overflowing, restricting the ability to treat people with non-COVID illnesses. that's unacceptable. so while part of me is tired of wearing a mask in order to protect those who have chosen for no good reason not to be vaccinated, i understand why i am asked to do so. and part of me even cares about those who have been manipulated into thinking that being vaccinated is a bad idea

If this is true, I'd agree with that too. I wasn't aware we were back to where hospitals are overflowing again.

Around here we're not. Well at least in Illinois and Lake County which is what I've been checking. If people don't want hospitals to EVER reach capacity, they'll need to build a lot more, larger hospitals, for use even during regular times. I worked in a major hospital for years that very regularly was at capacity. It was OK, and managed well. People were diverted and transferred as needed. Nobody died in the parking lot, so to speak.

[League Circles]

Covid19 - The Spartacus Letter
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/damn-you-hell-you-will-not-destroy-america-here-spartacus-covid-letter-thats-gone-viral

Jesus **** Christ.

Come on Duck, you know very well that Almost Retired has only a mere 10 minutes per day available to discuss this with us between running 3 hospitals and writing his highly anticipated upcoming book. You're really monopolizing his precious time and keeping him away from covid patients.

[dougthonus]

Around here we're not. Well at least in Illinois and Lake County which is what I've been checking. If people don't want hospitals to EVER reach capacity, they'll need to build a lot more, larger hospitals, for use even during regular times. I worked in a major hospital for years that very regularly was at capacity. It was OK, and managed well. People were diverted and transferred as needed. Nobody died in the parking lot, so to speak.

I'm not worried about a specific hospital reaching capacity, but a region meeting its capacity to where you effectively cannot treat people and are turning them away.

[League Circles]

Actually, society does work the way of my body, my choice.

you are required to be vaccinated to go to school and join the military, so...nope

Clearly, you believe in tyranny and a one size fits all approach no matter how you justify the circumstances.

clearly you believe in false data

Why is this sudden use of the "my body my choice" among anti-vacr's? What about unwanted pregnancies I wonder...

Do you monitor everything you eat with as much oversight? How about what you breath? Ever had a drink? Taken drugs? Why this sudden INTENSE issue with something that has been proven not only safe, but often time LIFE SAVING, and not just for you, but sometimes for the people you love? Isn't that a bit weird? WHY THIS?

The difference here is that you are affecting other people NOT JUST YOURSELF. I only wear a mask to protect YOU (the un-vaccinated).

It's a very very very weird perspective.

I strongly agree with your point on how weird it is that so many people who normally don't care about their health or what they put in their bodies are so up in arms about this.

That said, two notes to you and dice - vaccinations are not effectively mandated to attend school in something like 45+ states, as they have religious and/or philosophical exemptions from their mandates. Second, I wish people would put the tiniest bit of understanding into anti-abortion folks. For the vast, vast majority of them, they're simply trying to protect innocent, vulnerable life as they see it from murder. That's the overriding principle for them. The mother's body and choices aren't necessary to disregard or disrespect for these folks, but rather they just must subordinate them to the right to life of the unborn child.

Personally what I'd like to see, even though I think it's bad policy and morally wrong, would be for the government to ostensibly allow non vaccination for covid, but then go around shooting those folks with sniper vaccine-dart guns. It would improve health safety for everyone and it would irritate some people that I sadly and immaturely kinda want to see heavily irritated.

[DuckIII]

Covid19 - The Spartacus Letter
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/damn-you-hell-you-will-not-destroy-america-here-spartacus-covid-letter-thats-gone-viral

Jesus **** Christ.

Come on Duck, you know very well that Almost Retired has only a mere 10 minutes per day available to discuss this with us between running 3 hospitals and writing his highly anticipated upcoming book. You're really monopolizing his precious time and keeping him away from covid patients.

I was succinct out of respect for his time.

[DuckIII]

Personally what I'd like to see, even though I think it's bad policy and morally wrong, would be for the government to ostensibly allow non vaccination for covid, but then go around shooting those folks with sniper vaccine-dart guns. It would improve health safety for everyone and it would irritate some people that I sadly and immaturely kinda want to see heavily irritated.

I smell a screenplay!

P.S. Totally agree about the abortion distinction. Liberals should be staking out the high ground on intellectual sincerity and need to stop with this abortion/vaccine equivalency. Conservatives need to stop doing that too, which is why they co-opted “my body my choice” in the first place. Poorly reasoned-gotchaism to sound smart but illuminates either ignorance or deliberate bad faith. Or both.

[dougthonus]

That said, two notes to you and dice - vaccinations are not effectively mandated to attend school in something like 45+ states, as they have religious and/or philosophical exemptions from their mandates.

Vaccination rate of MMR (just looked up a random one) is over 90%. I'd say that's pretty effectively mandated overall.

[tedwilliams1999]

Covid19 - The Spartacus Letter
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/damn-you-hell-you-will-not-destroy-america-here-spartacus-covid-letter-thats-gone-viral

Jesus **** Christ.

That was one of the most alarming articles I've had the displeasure of reading in a long time. This is the epitome of an author who is on the wrong side of the Dunning-Kruger curve. The pathophysiology of COVID-19 and the science behind a few other topics is mostly on point, and yet the conclusions reached are just mind boggling.

1. The author concludes that the late stages of COVID-19 are an autoimmune process, which is likely true --> yet the author is more concerned about potential autoimmune complications from an mRNA vaccine. Which one of these has actually killed millions of people again? The disconnect here is baffling.

2. The author researches endogenous reverse transcriptases, and begins to conclude that the mRNA vaccine can suddenly incorporate itself into the DNA structure of all somatic cells. This is intentionally misleading. In actuality, many viruses that can cause infection can also incorporate itself into the DNA of infected cells. Yes, this includes SARS-COV-2. So the virus itself can incorporate itself into our DNA, and yet the author is more concerned about this happening with mRNA vaccines? Another massive disconnect. Here are just a couple of quick resources I found, if anyone needs information:

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33498787/

3. The argument against mechanical ventilation, in favor of experimental treatments, is also inconceivably stupid. This essay reeks of some one who has never actually taken care of patients with COVID-19, in the wards or in the ICU. I'm a physician here in Illinois, and we are treating patients with non invasive ventilation for as long as humanly possible. By the time I make the decision to place some one on a ventilator, this is the last resort; the alternative is death. And I promise you the lungs are not compliant whatsoever by the time I'm intubating some one.

I couldn't stomach reading the remainder of that article, but @Almost Retired, I urge you to reconsider what you don't know. The authors of these articles you are posting know just enough to sound intelligent, but there's no actual substance to any of these arguments. The Dunning-Kruger effect is very real and if you truly are a physician, then I urge you to be cognizant of that.

In the meantime, there is a reason why the scientific community goes through a rigid scientific method when it comes to analyzing data. Extrapolating conclusions and nit-picking data is a recipe for disaster, as shown in the article above from Zero Hedge. These are just a few of the many legitimate resources I'd recommend for anyone who is vaccine hesitant:

https://www.nejm.org/coronavirus

https://www.thelancet.com/coronavirus

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/pages/coronavirus-alert

[dougthonus]

Covid19 - The Spartacus Letter
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/damn-you-hell-you-will-not-destroy-america-here-spartacus-covid-letter-thats-gone-viral

For the deadline poison we are injecting ourselves with, it sure seems surprising that more of the people haven't died given the four billion or so injections. I've never met anyone who knows anyone even 2nd hand that died from the vaccine.

[League Circles]

That said, two notes to you and dice - vaccinations are not effectively mandated to attend school in something like 45+ states, as they have religious and/or philosophical exemptions from their mandates.

Vaccination rate of MMR (just looked up a random one) is over 90%. I'd say that's pretty effectively mandated overall.

All I mean is that it's incorrect for people to suggest that you must take (other) vaccines to attend school. It's false. If people are going to argue for something, anything really, it's imperative that they not start with any falsehoods. It undermines their credibility with people who are looking for any reason to discount them. It happens to be a rampant problem in society IMO, from all angles.

[dougthonus]

All I mean is that it's incorrect for people to suggest that you must take (other) vaccines to attend school. It's false. If people are going to argue for something, anything really, it's imperative that they not start with any falsehoods. It undermines their credibility with people who are looking for any reason to discount them. It happens to be a rampant problem in society IMO, from all angles.

I agree we should try to be precise, but I think there's a pretty big difference between something which is generally true, and specifically, exactly, 100% true. More or less any time someone says always or never, they won't be correct. In this case, the philosophical point that you generally need vaccines to attend school is correct. The 90% rate I quoted was for kids 2 and under. I'd imagine for schools the rate is much higher and people true up by the time they get there (or home school).

It probably varies by state (and perhaps school district) but my ex-wife tried to get vaccine exemptions for my kids and was unable to do so after considerable effort. In our area, it was not plausible to get one unless you had a long running, historically proven religious exemption. Philosophical exemptions were not a possibility. Granted, that may not match the country, nor may it still be the case as this was about 15 years ago.

From a similar perspective, COVID vaccines aren't being mandated to work in all these fields. It's a COVID vaccine or repeatedly go through a list of things which are difficult and inconvenient for you. So even the mandates in those areas aren't true mandates without exemption, just the exemptions are also hard to come by (likely for the same reasons) and the steps you must take with an exemption are a pain in the ass enough that you need to be extremely committed to take them.

[meekrab]

ZeroHedge is a hilarious website as long as you remember to read it as parody.