2021-22 Rookie Thread

[yoyoboy]

Both Mobley and Barnes look damn good.
But what matters more to me, is who based on today NBA game have more transferable skills in playoff games.

Mobley gives elite defence inside, but what happens if in playoffs when ball is swing and it’s more 3 point shots, is his defence less utilized? How is Mobley’s back to the net offense and can he do that at high clip (while maybe not asked to do that now).

Barnes has shown good perimeter defence (where the ball is more during playoff) ability to handle the ball in open court (raw usage (shot/pass) can go up in playoff), and the mid range jumper (which is the key to playoff success).

Raw point scored in regular season doesn’t matter as much, because in the playoffs it matters more if you can create your own offense (your own shot, easily, with the ball starting in your own hands) and make the bucket at a strong clip.

Right now i like Barnes transferable skills more for playoffs, as it could potentially positively affect playoff games more (3 years down the line)

I’m not going to argue you preferring Barnes. I’m fine with that. But just to address this, Mobley’s contesting 6.7 3P shots per game, which ranks #1 in the NBA by a decent margin. Again he’s not a normal big. He’s a switch monster. Guys like Giannis, Davis, Embiid, and even Capela always have far more defensive impact in the playoffs than the Kawhis and PGs of the world.

[DCasey91]

He is a better prospect. His impact on the floor is greater and will remain so if he stays healthy. He is not your typical center... so you don't compare him to the impact of your typical center. Mobley in a few years may be called a wing, and with his physical gifts he is nothing like we have ever seen. Barnes can't and will never be able to do what Mobley can do defensively...and Mobley is a puppy, a baby giraffe..he isn't even close to his physical prime obviously. Barnes body is super NBA ready.

I wouldn't take Davis over Kawhi for example. Let's talk about just positional value instead of your obviously impressive ability to tell the future. Neither is close to their physical prime. What a ridiculous assertion just because one player is bigger lol

Neither Mobley nor Barnes are AD or Kawhi, yeah?

What is positional value lol? value is impact, if one player has bigger impact he is the better player. There is no such thing as positional value, value change according to the respective teams roster makeup and league trends. Do you not recall bigs being at the top of the echelon? What about the time when Curry was the thing? PGs value increased as well.

Sure, when you get a caliber of talent like Lebron James who ticks all the boxes for you on both ends then okay..sure, wings may hold more value because they are able to do more things than your typical PFs/C. They can dish, rebound, score on very high %, block shots, etc..basically do most of what your PF/C and more. But that's really rare.

But you are working under the assumption that Barnes is that special talent? based on what exactly?

Dunno what to tell you, but when I look at the NBA landscape and which players are the most impactful I see more similarity to Mobley than Barnes. There are a lot of PFs/C and some unicorns like Durant and Giannis who resemble Mobley more once he matures and develops physically.

Mobley's path into being a 1A on a good playoffs team and an anchor defensively is much clearer than that of Barnes to me. And at the end of the day, these are all projections, yeah? nonetheless, if I had to build a team from scratch, i'm picking Mobley every damn time as he is much easier to build a team around as he gives you the blueprint.

And comeon, I did not say that Barnes is in his physical prime... I said he is NBA ready and that's true. how much more mass do you think he will be able to add? where's Mobley's starting point is so damn lower that it makes you wonder how good he is going to be once he fills up because right now his lack of strength and weight is clearly a detriment to his overall game. And this kid is not soft. He fights...so yeah, good luck to all if an once he fills up and gains some strength.

Yes there is elite defensive bigs/big wings that act as secondary rim protectors are the most valuable positional wise and it’s not even close to being close.

GSW starters last game:

Curry
Pools
Wiggins
Green
Looney

Doesn’t take a brain surgeon to know whose by far the most valuable defender on that team, well what do you know he’s a switchable wing/secondary rim protector and the teams defensive quarterback all in one.

[DCasey91]

I mean Ball and Simmons won with less ppg so hopefully the voters have a clue. I have Mobley in front of Barnes as it stands but both have been highly impressive. One brings noticeable defensive impact. If by the end of the year Mobley is a top ten defender in the comp he should be ROY imo.

[NRSV]

Re: Mobley vs Barnes.

The sample sizes are small. The numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. The eye test is still more important at this juncture. Though both players are producing early.

Barnes is being asked to ball handle more than Mobley. Mobley is being asked to defensively anchor. Barnes is creating most of his shots (only assisted on 28% of his field goals). Mobley is a roll man (assisted on like 66% of his shots) and mostly roll man'd his way to 23 points tonight.

I personally think being asked to anchor a defense to be more impressive than a comparable age player being asked to create shots but we aren't talking about what is impressive, we are talking value.

Some analytics say they're comparable. Some say Mobley is better. Again, it's early. It should be noted that Barnes is on the team that was projected to be 8-10 games better than the Cavs coming into the season. Not sure if these projections included Siakam missing time though.

Based only on demonstrated traits, I think Mobley is gonna be pretty insane when he reaches his final form. Nice shooting form with range. Toughness. High positional IQ. Great shot altering instincts. But that's not what ROTY is about. It's about what you are right now as a player. That tends to favor scoring and Barnes's green light will stay green all season.

What does "defensively anchor" mean to you?

Because Scottie is being asked to man up against the Doncics and Tatums so far. To guard centers and PGs too.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

He leads the NBA in contested shots per game

[Madhouse]

I think it'll be like the 2003 draft with the difference that there is no mega bust and no top 2 player of all time in the top 5. I think Suggs has the lowest ceiling but still think he ends up on the Jrue Holiday/Mike Conley tier. And the way Giddey looks this could be an incredibly strong top 6. Don't think the rest of the draft will be much different from other drafts. There will be 1-2 stars at the end of the lottery, 1-2 at the end of the first round and 1-2 2nd round steals.

[prelude00]

They’ll both look good as Lakers one day

/vomit

Fml - I hate this post for the simple fact that the possibility will always be looming lol

Both Mobley and Barnes looking great to start the season. Maybe we'll see some potential co-ROY debate by the end of the season if these two keep it up.

However, once Pascal returns, I can Scottie's numbers dipping. Maybe his defensive stats will get better though.

I'm just very happy with the pick. I can see the raps back in contention within the next 5 years if Masai and co can continue to work their magic

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

[Madhouse]

He is a better prospect. His impact on the floor is greater and will remain so if he stays healthy. He is not your typical center... so you don't compare him to the impact of your typical center. Mobley in a few years may be called a wing, and with his physical gifts he is nothing like we have ever seen. Barnes can't and will never be able to do what Mobley can do defensively...and Mobley is a puppy, a baby giraffe..he isn't even close to his physical prime obviously. Barnes body is super NBA ready.

I wouldn't take Davis over Kawhi for example. Let's talk about just positional value instead of your obviously impressive ability to tell the future. Neither is close to their physical prime. What a ridiculous assertion just because one player is bigger lol

Neither Mobley nor Barnes are AD or Kawhi, yeah?

What is positional value lol? value is impact, if one player has bigger impact he is the better player. There is no such thing as positional value, value change according to the respective teams roster makeup and league trends. Do you not recall bigs being at the top of the echelon? What about the time when Curry was the thing? PGs value increased as well.

Sure, when you get a caliber of talent like Lebron James who ticks all the boxes for you on both ends then okay..sure, wings may hold more value because they are able to do more things than your typical PFs/C. They can dish, rebound, score on very high %, block shots, etc..basically do most of what your PF/C and more. But that's really rare.

But you are working under the assumption that Barnes is that special talent? based on what exactly?

Dunno what to tell you, but when I look at the NBA landscape and which players are the most impactful I see more similarity to Mobley than Barnes. There are a lot of PFs/C and some unicorns like Durant and Giannis who resemble Mobley more once he matures and develops physically.

Mobley's path into being a 1A on a good playoffs team and an anchor defensively is much clearer than that of Barnes to me. And at the end of the day, these are all projections, yeah? nonetheless, if I had to build a team from scratch, i'm picking Mobley every damn time as he is much easier to build a team around as he gives you the blueprint.

And comeon, I did not say that Barnes is in his physical prime... I said he is NBA ready and that's true. how much more mass do you think he will be able to add? where's Mobley's starting point is so damn lower that it makes you wonder how good he is going to be once he fills up because right now his lack of strength and weight is clearly a detriment to his overall game. And this kid is not soft. He fights...so yeah, good luck to all if an once he fills up and gains some strength.

Barnes is closer to his physical prime, at least that what most anticipate. Not sure you want him to gain more than 10 pounds anyway as it could disrupt his shooting form.


It doesn't mean he has less potential than Mobley however. Mobley is more polished in what he wants to do on the floor especially on defense. Barnes is just starting to develop the feel how to run an offense and his jump shot. Ball handling is still raw as well, that will need a lot of improvement.

[John Murdoch]

Wasnt impressed with Mobley but AD is a tough matchup on both ends

[The Duke]

Both Mobley and Barnes look damn good.
But what matters more to me, is who based on today NBA game have more transferable skills in playoff games.

Mobley gives elite defence inside, but what happens if in playoffs when ball is swing and it’s more 3 point shots, is his defence less utilized? How is Mobley’s back to the net offense and can he do that at high clip (while maybe not asked to do that now).

Barnes has shown good perimeter defence (where the ball is more during playoff) ability to handle the ball in open court (raw usage (shot/pass) can go up in playoff), and the mid range jumper (which is the key to playoff success).

Raw point scored in regular season doesn’t matter as much, because in the playoffs it matters more if you can create your own offense (your own shot, easily, with the ball starting in your own hands) and make the bucket at a strong clip.

Right now i like Barnes transferable skills more for playoffs, as it could potentially positively affect playoff games more (3 years down the line)

I’m not going to argue you preferring Barnes. I’m fine with that. But just to address this, Mobley’s contesting 6.7 3P shots per game, which ranks #1 in the NBA by a decent margin. Again he’s not a normal big. He’s a switch monster. Guys like Giannis, Davis, Embiid, and even Capela always have far more defensive impact in the playoffs than the Kawhis and PGs of the world.

Thanks I appreciate that insight and context. That’s excellent for Mobley.

Though i disagree with the statement that guys like Davis/Embiid/etc have far more defensive impact in the playoffs that kawhi. What happens in a tie game, iso situation where the ball goes to 1 wing player on offense and defended by 1 wing player. The defensive wing IMO is more impactful in those clutch/pressure situations.

[NRSV]

Wasnt impressed with Mobley but AD is a tough matchup on both ends

That’s a weird take. Mobley outproduced AD last night. Mobley had zero turnovers and zero fouls in 36 mins of play and shot 64%. He was the only cavalier player who logged more than 30 minutes and was not a negative plus/minus.

[everdiso]

Re: Mobley vs Barnes.

The sample sizes are small. The numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. The eye test is still more important at this juncture. Though both players are producing early.

Barnes is being asked to ball handle more than Mobley. Mobley is being asked to defensively anchor. Barnes is creating most of his shots (only assisted on 28% of his field goals). Mobley is a roll man (assisted on like 66% of his shots) and mostly roll man'd his way to 23 points tonight.

I personally think being asked to anchor a defense to be more impressive than a comparable age player being asked to create shots but we aren't talking about what is impressive, we are talking value.

Some analytics say they're comparable. Some say Mobley is better. Again, it's early. It should be noted that Barnes is on the team that was projected to be 8-10 games better than the Cavs coming into the season. Not sure if these projections included Siakam missing time though.

Based only on demonstrated traits, I think Mobley is gonna be pretty insane when he reaches his final form. Nice shooting form with range. Toughness. High positional IQ. Great shot altering instincts. But that's not what ROTY is about. It's about what you are right now as a player. That tends to favor scoring and Barnes's green light will stay green all season.

What does "defensively anchor" mean to you?

Because Scottie is being asked to man up against the Doncics and Tatums so far. To guard centers and PGs too.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

He leads the NBA in contested shots per game

Is he being asked to guard the other teams' #1 options like Scottie is? Is he being asked to pick up the lead ballhandler coming across halfcourt like Scottie is? Is he chasing primary scorers around screens?

And you like videos?

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[AJ416]

Seen all of Scottie's games and two of Mobley's. Wowed by both of these guys. Mobley such a defensive presence its insane considering he's really just a kid. Both have a slightly different element they provide to help their team win. No point in arguing who is and who will be better, both of these players can be all-NBA guys. Whats nice is the draft doing what it should which is provide quality players throughout the first round and giving all teams a chance to improve with good scouting, development and asset management.

[Shy Gorgeous-Al]

What does "defensively anchor" mean to you?

Because Scottie is being asked to man up against the Doncics and Tatums so far. To guard centers and PGs too.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

He leads the NBA in contested shots per game

Is he being asked to guard the other teams' #1 options like Scottie is? Is he being asked to pick up the lead ballhandler coming across halfcourt like Scottie is? Is he chasing primary scorers around screens?

And you like videos?

https://youtu.be/TSZ6Mhb3Mhs

https://youtu.be/twlb0Lj8sb0

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Lol, he is tasked to do so much more. He is tasked to cover for 3 players on every possession and make the correct rotation, switch and defend the rim every damn time on every possession without the privilege of taking any plays off.

Garland and Sexton are both defensive sieves. Markannen gives up the penetration and mostly fumbles players into Allen, and Mobley is tasked into covering for everybody other than Allen. If the Cavs had the luxury Mobley would guard any superstar you have in the league regardless of position and he would do it god damn well. Mobley is winning every matchup he is tasked with defensively so far. Barnes may be able to handle a lot of players and positions, but I doubt he is winning most of his harder assignments..probably breaks even, at best. He just doesn't have the length (he has great length for a wing) to be a detriment all over the floor and against every position like Mobley is. I will argue that Mobley is also much better defending the point guard position than Barnes. Only thing Barnes probably has an advantage against Mobley defensively is handling screens.

[Madhouse]

ROY race so far
1 Mobley
2 Barnes
3 Giddey
4 Duarte
5 Wagner

Can't wait to watch Cade tonight.

[PhilBlackson]

I have higher hopes about Suggs than I do Cade Cunningham. I think Suggs is better on both ends and translates better to the NBA!

Really?!?

Actually bit surprised by that. I swear I'm not hating on Suggs, I know people see "Raptor fan" and assume oh hear we go again lol but honestly Suggs has looked fairly unimpressive (offensively) pretty much the whole way through. Even last night's production was on yet again very poor shooting percentages. Not only is his shot concerning, it's that his ballhandling looks incredibly suspect which is a huge no no as a PG/SG (nvm not great length with his wingspan at the position.

Almost all the opposite could be said for Cade. Cade shot MUCH better percentages in college, has excellent size for a guard (likely will be put at SG) and a tighter handle. I think some people might end up being hard on Cade based on the inaccurate Luka comparisons when he's far more Tatum like with some better passing instincts. Not only skill and talent wise do I favor Cade but also situations they're entering. Cade is 100% going to be featured...Suggs is struggling to find his confidence, Cole is ball dominant/ball hoggish and eventually Fultz will return which likely pushes Suggs to the bench with Harris. Don't see how he moves ahead of Cade coming off the bench.

The only place I can see Suggs being ahead of Cade really is defensively and his passing on the break that's one thing I have to give Suggs -- he has EXCELLENT instincts as a defender and on the break; likely all due to his football experience. He knows when to commit to going after the ball ie/ when to jump a lane for steals or when to commit to going after a blocked shot and of course on the break he sees his cutters extremely well...but the rest of his game, not a match for Cade, not yet at least.

[QingJames]

Dunno what to tell you, but when I look at the NBA landscape and which players are the most impactful I see more similarity to Mobley than Barnes. There are a lot of PFs/C and some unicorns like Durant and Giannis who resemble Mobley more once he matures and develops physically.

I don’t actually disagree that Mobley is and may continue to be more impactful than Barnes throughout their careers. But I do take issue with this statement. There is certainly a greater preponderance of impactful forwards than there are bigs/centers. There’s Embiid, AD and Jokic and then a pretty big drop off. I think most teams would much rather have guys like Brown, Tatum, Kawhi, PG13, Butler, Doncic, Middleton, Randle, etc. than guys like Ayton, Capela, Turner, JV, etc.

There’s no question forwards have been more impactful than bigs on average in the contemporary NBA.

Right. I did not intend to say that there are a lot more players like that. That was a false statement and poor wording on my part.

What I meant to say is that the most impactful players that are labeled as PFs/C (the non traditional bigs) are more in the mold of Mobley. Mobley is more of a unicorn to me than Barnes. You see Barnes archetype more in the NBA.

Doncic is on a tier on his own and most resembles Lebron. I do not count him as the same player as the other wings you listed. He is a PG in a wing body.

Other than Kawhi, what have those said player done in their careers? They have not won. Every team is looking for a wing, especially two way wings because there are so many good wing talents in the NBA and you need to match up against them, but they are not rare other than the top of the top. Do you think Barnes can reach Doncic and Lebron level?

I'll take the stance that Mobley has a greater chance to reach his projection and ceiling, and his floor as a defensive game changer seems pretty safe to me.

Neither have Embiid or Jokic. Embiid hasn't even made the conference finals. AD never did anything before he partnered up with Lebron either. Jokic has had the most success and he still hasn't won as much as guys like Tatum, Brown, PG13, Middleton and Butler, who have all enjoyed greater success than him in terms of the postseason. Aside from Middleton, none of those guys have ever had to be paired with star/unicorn bigs to have success either, while the star/unicorn bigs certainly need a star wing to have success. Mobley looks like an amazing prospect but Embiid and AD are also defensive game changers and have proven unable to have much success as the #1 guy. It's a stretch to me to project Mobley to be so much better than them that he breaks the mould of even unicorn bigs needing a star wing player to make any noise.

I don't think Barnes can reach Doncic and Lebron level, FWIW, but I would not be shocked if he reaches Tatum or PG13 level based on his savant-like adjustment of his shot in just a few short months and his incredible feel for the game. If Barnes reaches Tatum or PG13 level of impact, that's good enough to make a conference finals. If Mobley reaches Embiid or AD level of impact, I'm not convinced that's enough to make a conference finals.

[anotherhomer]

It's funny,
As a raps fan, I was talking to a news reporter

We totally take mobley lol

But more than happy with barnes

[Prez]

Mobley looks like a Garnett level talent to me. Just insane upside when you consider the combination of defensive feel/IQ, physical tools, passing talent, shooting foundation, etc. I think he’s my new favorite young player in the game right now. Gonna be following Cavs ball a lot moving forward it seems.

[Vampirate]

Mobley is already an all-defense level defender and he’s shown traits that his offensive ceiling is also quite high: elite rim running potential, willing shooter with good form out to 3PT land, huge hands and dexterity with both hands, better ball handling than most C’s already.

His ceiling is KG/more physical AD. Barnes can’t compete with that projection imo.

If were talking theoretical max ceilings both Mobley and Barnes have the potential to blow past KG in terms of players.

[Shy Gorgeous-Al]

ROY race so far
1 Mobley
2 Barnes
3 Giddey
4 Duarte
5 Wagner

Can't wait to watch Cade tonight.

If Cade plays badly, all hell breaks loose