2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[HiRez]

Rookie tracker through Mar. 20. Late in the season so things won't change too much at this point.

[K_chile22]

PPP on nba.com playtype isolation:

Sengun 1.09
Wagner 1.04
Green 0.96
Mobley 0.95
Barnes 0.89
Cunningham 0.89
Kuminga 0.88
Dosunmu 0.86
Suggs 0.65

Of course volume matters, but it's probably a little too early in these guys careers to be deciding who's going to end up being able to produce efficiently in isolation when Sengun may be the only rook that isn't dragging his team's Off Rtg down when they run an ISO for him.

If I missed someone, let me know, but I couldn't figure out how to get nba.com to filter by rooks.

Tbf isolation possessions are all half court possessions and teams half court ppp is typically way lower. Average this year is 0.95 PPP, best in the league is 100.5. I'd say being able to generate at least 0.85 PPP in isolation is pretty good already. A lot of isolation comes when the offense gets bogged down, so to still get somewhat close to a normal half court possession is a +

[JonFromVA]

PPP on nba.com playtype isolation:

Sengun 1.09
Wagner 1.04
Green 0.96
Mobley 0.95
Barnes 0.89
Cunningham 0.89
Kuminga 0.88
Dosunmu 0.86
Suggs 0.65

Of course volume matters, but it's probably a little too early in these guys careers to be deciding who's going to end up being able to produce efficiently in isolation when Sengun may be the only rook that isn't dragging his team's Off Rtg down when they run an ISO for him.

If I missed someone, let me know, but I couldn't figure out how to get nba.com to filter by rooks.

Tbf isolation possessions are all half court possessions and teams half court ppp is typically way lower. Average this year is 0.95 PPP, best in the league is 100.5. I'd say being able to generate at least 0.85 PPP in isolation is pretty good already. A lot of isolation comes when the offense gets bogged down, so to still get somewhat close to a normal half court possession is a +

Good point about the half court league averages, but part of what makes rookies ... well, rookies is bad judgement, so I wouldn't give them a blanket pass that an ISO possession was their team's best option without supporting evidence.

And while we expect rookies to keep getting better and better in all areas of the game, how it will actually play out is a blank slate. Some of the players I listed may ultimately join the top ISO players in the league, but most will not.

[bstein14]

Even if he finishes strong in PPG down the stretch, I can't see Cade deserving the ROY over Mobley and or Barnes. I think he's just been too inefficient, to many TOs, and not doing enough of playing winning basketball. I'm sure he'll get better at those things in year two and he hopefully will have more help around him but overall he may end up with the best numbers as far as PPG, RGB, and APG goes but he isn't deserving of ROY.

[Gasolina]

Even if he finishes strong in PPG down the stretch, I can't see Cade deserving the ROY over Mobley and or Barnes. I think he's just been too inefficient, to many TOs, and not doing enough of playing winning basketball. I'm sure he'll get better at those things in year two and he hopefully will have more help around him but overall he may end up with the best numbers as far as PPG, RGB, and APG goes but he isn't deserving of ROY.

I don’t agree he doesn’t play winning basketball. The turnovers and efficiency things are valid to hold against him, but he plays with awful teammates and seems far and away the best player on the team already. They are atrocious without Cade and at least competitive in most matchups with him.

If anything, I think Cade has done the most of any of the top 3 to overcome doubts about his game. People were concerned about his assist/TO ratio and his ability to create his own shot but I believe he has put to bed those question marks. He has a positive ratio and he has shown the ability to create for himself. He can’t do it efficiently yet but a lot of that is because he commands the most defensive attention due to bad teammates.

The question marks around Scottie and Even haven’t been resolved in a satisfying manner IMO. People were concerned about Barnes’ shot and that his defense was worse than advertised. Barnes doesn’t have a reliable shot outside 10 feet and he is an average defender at best right now, more often than not slightly below average. For Mobley, people were concerned that his seemingly elite defense was being massively buoyed by the presence of Allen in the paint. I think this has been proven true; Mobley looks like a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 and is certainly no defensive anchor.

If Cade can keep this level of play up for the rest of the year, I’d probably give him the award. He’s done more than other rookies to put to bed the questions surrounding him.

[3toheadmelo]

Tre Mann, late entrant

you guys got a good one. he was on my radar in the draft for my knicks. his self creation skills is so fun to watch

Read on Twitter

[LoveMyRaps]

Tre Mann, late entrant

you guys got a good one. he was on my radar in the draft for my knicks. his self creation skills is so fun to watch

Read on Twitter

Is Anfernee Simons a valid comp?

[3toheadmelo]

Tre Mann, late entrant

you guys got a good one. he was on my radar in the draft for my knicks. his self creation skills is so fun to watch

Read on Twitter

Is Anfernee Simons a valid comp?

yea i see that. i actually compared him to simons a couple weeks ago too on the knicks board

[tmorgan]

Even if he finishes strong in PPG down the stretch, I can't see Cade deserving the ROY over Mobley and or Barnes. I think he's just been too inefficient, to many TOs, and not doing enough of playing winning basketball. I'm sure he'll get better at those things in year two and he hopefully will have more help around him but overall he may end up with the best numbers as far as PPG, RGB, and APG goes but he isn't deserving of ROY.

I don’t agree he doesn’t play winning basketball. The turnovers and efficiency things are valid to hold against him, but he plays with awful teammates and seems far and away the best player on the team already. They are atrocious without Cade and at least competitive in most matchups with him.

If anything, I think Cade has done the most of any of the top 3 to overcome doubts about his game. People were concerned about his assist/TO ratio and his ability to create his own shot but I believe he has put to bed those question marks. He has a positive ratio and he has shown the ability to create for himself. He can’t do it efficiently yet but a lot of that is because he commands the most defensive attention due to bad teammates.

The question marks around Scottie and Even haven’t been resolved in a satisfying manner IMO. People were concerned about Barnes’ shot and that his defense was worse than advertised. Barnes doesn’t have a reliable shot outside 10 feet and he is an average defender at best right now, more often than not slightly below average. For Mobley, people were concerned that his seemingly elite defense was being massively buoyed by the presence of Allen in the paint. I think this has been proven true; Mobley looks like a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 and is certainly no defensive anchor.

If Cade can keep this level of play up for the rest of the year, I’d probably give him the award. He’s done more than other rookies to put to bed the questions surrounding him.

While Pistons fans like to hear this perspective, i don’t think this is the way the modern RotY award works. If voters look at raw counting numbers, yes, Cade could win it, but he’s certainly been a less effective player (albeit in a bigger, more difficult role) than Mobley or Barnes. The award is not one of potential or skill set, but of results.

I guess we’ll just have to see. My vote is for Scottie, 2nd Mobley, 3rd Cade. Still wouldn’t trade Cade for either of them, though.

[K_chile22]

you guys got a good one. he was on my radar in the draft for my knicks. his self creation skills is so fun to watch

Read on Twitter

Is Anfernee Simons a valid comp?

yea i see that. i actually compared him to simons a couple weeks ago too on the knicks board

Simons is waaaay more athletic. I see Tre having a Seth Curry like game

[3toheadmelo]

Is Anfernee Simons a valid comp?

yea i see that. i actually compared him to simons a couple weeks ago too on the knicks board

Simons is waaaay more athletic. I see Tre having a Seth Curry like game

Seth doesn’t really have that type of creativity off the bounce like Tre. I don’t really see the comparison besides both being able to shoot.

Also Tre is pretty athletic himself..he had some crazy dunks in high school but here’s some he’s had in the league so far

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[DudetheObscure]

Tre Mann, late entrant

you guys got a good one. he was on my radar in the draft for my knicks. his self creation skills is so fun to watch

Read on Twitter

Tre has scored 20 points in a single Q twice in his last 3 games. I liked what I saw from him in the SL, but I never expected this kind if production from him this year.

[MoneyTalks41890]

yea i see that. i actually compared him to simons a couple weeks ago too on the knicks board

Simons is waaaay more athletic. I see Tre having a Seth Curry like game

Seth doesn’t really have that type of creativity off the bounce like Tre. I don’t really see the comparison besides both being able to shoot.

Also Tre is pretty athletic himself..he had some crazy dunks in high school but here’s some he’s had in the league so far

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

I think the issue is that Simons is a absolute freak athlete and Tre is a bit below him, but not Seth Curry. Tre is going to be an awesome microwave scorer for a long time. I think a more athletic Lou Will, because they both can create space in insane ways.

[nikster]

cade is an inch shorter than barnes... wagner is like two inches taller and he has no problem putting the ball on the floor, doing step backs, running PnR, etc.

Scottie has a wingspan 3.5 inches wider than Wagner and is way stronger. Scotties built like a big, those 2 are not. He regularly uses his size and strength to push around big players, even veterans. That's why he's more efficient inside the 3 point line, and why he has more offensive rebounds than those 2 combined. And of course defensively Raptors regularly rely on Scottie to cover the 4 or 5 position for long stretches

Scottie is a big and Franz is a 2-3.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

That was kinda my point

[jasonxxx102]

Even if he finishes strong in PPG down the stretch, I can't see Cade deserving the ROY over Mobley and or Barnes. I think he's just been too inefficient, to many TOs, and not doing enough of playing winning basketball. I'm sure he'll get better at those things in year two and he hopefully will have more help around him but overall he may end up with the best numbers as far as PPG, RGB, and APG goes but he isn't deserving of ROY.

I don’t agree he doesn’t play winning basketball. The turnovers and efficiency things are valid to hold against him, but he plays with awful teammates and seems far and away the best player on the team already. They are atrocious without Cade and at least competitive in most matchups with him.

If anything, I think Cade has done the most of any of the top 3 to overcome doubts about his game. People were concerned about his assist/TO ratio and his ability to create his own shot but I believe he has put to bed those question marks. He has a positive ratio and he has shown the ability to create for himself. He can’t do it efficiently yet but a lot of that is because he commands the most defensive attention due to bad teammates.

The question marks around Scottie and Even haven’t been resolved in a satisfying manner IMO. People were concerned about Barnes’ shot and that his defense was worse than advertised. Barnes doesn’t have a reliable shot outside 10 feet and he is an average defender at best right now, more often than not slightly below average. For Mobley, people were concerned that his seemingly elite defense was being massively buoyed by the presence of Allen in the paint. I think this has been proven true; Mobley looks like a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 and is certainly no defensive anchor.

If Cade can keep this level of play up for the rest of the year, I’d probably give him the award. He’s done more than other rookies to put to bed the questions surrounding him.

So for one, this isn't how ROY voting works. Plus, what has he shown to overcome doubts about his game? He's pretty much exactly what people projected.

ROY isn't a competition to see who's the best compared to what people thought they would be...

Cade has no shot at the award, the Pistons suck and while it's not his fault it 100% factors into the decision. That's even if you ignore the efficiency issues and putrid advanced metrics.

Also, the fact that you called Mobley a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 just proves that you haven't actually watched him play. He's an elite defender regardless of Allen. Yes, he's better when he can play the free safety role at the 4 but he's still elite at the 5. List out all of the 7 footers in the NBA who are switchable 1-5. I'll wait

[Roger Murdock]

Tre was one of my darlings in the draft glad to see him popping off

My biggest surprise has been Wagner. I liked him as a prospect but did not expect him to be nearly as dynamic.

[mademan]

Even if he finishes strong in PPG down the stretch, I can't see Cade deserving the ROY over Mobley and or Barnes. I think he's just been too inefficient, to many TOs, and not doing enough of playing winning basketball. I'm sure he'll get better at those things in year two and he hopefully will have more help around him but overall he may end up with the best numbers as far as PPG, RGB, and APG goes but he isn't deserving of ROY.

I don’t agree he doesn’t play winning basketball. The turnovers and efficiency things are valid to hold against him, but he plays with awful teammates and seems far and away the best player on the team already. They are atrocious without Cade and at least competitive in most matchups with him.

If anything, I think Cade has done the most of any of the top 3 to overcome doubts about his game. People were concerned about his assist/TO ratio and his ability to create his own shot but I believe he has put to bed those question marks. He has a positive ratio and he has shown the ability to create for himself. He can’t do it efficiently yet but a lot of that is because he commands the most defensive attention due to bad teammates.

The question marks around Scottie and Even haven’t been resolved in a satisfying manner IMO. People were concerned about Barnes’ shot and that his defense was worse than advertised. Barnes doesn’t have a reliable shot outside 10 feet and he is an average defender at best right now, more often than not slightly below average. For Mobley, people were concerned that his seemingly elite defense was being massively buoyed by the presence of Allen in the paint. I think this has been proven true; Mobley looks like a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 and is certainly no defensive anchor.

If Cade can keep this level of play up for the rest of the year, I’d probably give him the award. He’s done more than other rookies to put to bed the questions surrounding him.

So for one, this isn't how ROY voting works. Plus, what has he shown to overcome doubts about his game? He's pretty much exactly what people projected.

ROY isn't a competition to see who's the best compared to what people thought they would be...

Cade has no shot at the award, the Pistons suck and while it's not his fault it 100% factors into the decision. That's even if you ignore the efficiency issues and putrid advanced metrics.

Also, the fact that you called Mobley a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 just proves that you haven't actually watched him play. He's an elite defender regardless of Allen. Yes, he's better when he can play the free safety role at the 4 but he's still elite at the 5. List out all of the 7 footers in the NBA who are switchable 1-5. I'll wait

He also called Barnes a below average defender, which is hilarious. Dude was was a primary defender on Jokic and Harden for large stretches in the same week. Below average defenders dont get put on those guys. Every defensive stat paints him as a + as well

[jasonxxx102]

Just to add my 2c in here. I'm really surprised by the poll results because Mobley is clear cut #1 to me. Barnes is a close 2nd and Cade is a pretty distant 3rd.

I get why there is some Cade talk (although totally unwarranted). For 1: he was the #1 pick so he'll be talked about for ROY regardless and the fact that he's a high usage, volume guard. Of course he's going to have the best box scores because he's just touching the ball so much more than everyone else.

So first off, Mobley is a generational defensive player. There's this weird misconception amongst many people in the basketball community that a defensive anchor has to be a big C who sits around in the paint blocking shots when that's really not true at all. Just look at a guy like Draymond, someone who can "QB" the floor defensively and anchor the middle of the floor vs just the paint or just the perimeter.

Mobley is a natural 4, both offensively and defensively. He has really excelled this season when JB runs a pseudo zone with Mobley playing free safety. His instincts and rotations are impeccable for a young big man. He has great footspeed and he's really quick off the floor as a leaper. Good moving his hips and feet while changing direction and he's switchable 1-5.

There's really not much to nit pick about him defensively other than him not being a super strong post defender but there's no reason to think he can't fill out his frame.

Offensively it's a different story. Still a very raw player. Fortunately for him he's very heady so he's picked up on the nuances of the NBA game very quickly and has good vision and decision making. His handle isn't very good, so he doesn't have ball handler upside a la Giannis but he can still facilitate out of the mid post and run the break a bit.

He doesn't have 3pt range and the FT% is disappointing. Probably doesn't project as a knockdown 3pt shooter but 32-33%? That's enough to be a threat. Mid post game is very good for his age, he's got a nice feel for the left elbow and a nice little fadeaway. Soft touch around the rim with different hook and push shots but gets pushed off his spot a lot and has to take a lot of tough shots.

Ultimately, Mobley has room to grow in basically every area of his game and physically and he's already this good. This kid is gonna be scary good for a long time and I think there's no doubt if you've watched him play that he's the ROY

[MrBigShot]

Even if he finishes strong in PPG down the stretch, I can't see Cade deserving the ROY over Mobley and or Barnes. I think he's just been too inefficient, to many TOs, and not doing enough of playing winning basketball. I'm sure he'll get better at those things in year two and he hopefully will have more help around him but overall he may end up with the best numbers as far as PPG, RGB, and APG goes but he isn't deserving of ROY.

I don’t agree he doesn’t play winning basketball. The turnovers and efficiency things are valid to hold against him, but he plays with awful teammates and seems far and away the best player on the team already. They are atrocious without Cade and at least competitive in most matchups with him.

If anything, I think Cade has done the most of any of the top 3 to overcome doubts about his game. People were concerned about his assist/TO ratio and his ability to create his own shot but I believe he has put to bed those question marks. He has a positive ratio and he has shown the ability to create for himself. He can’t do it efficiently yet but a lot of that is because he commands the most defensive attention due to bad teammates.

The question marks around Scottie and Even haven’t been resolved in a satisfying manner IMO. People were concerned about Barnes’ shot and that his defense was worse than advertised. Barnes doesn’t have a reliable shot outside 10 feet and he is an average defender at best right now, more often than not slightly below average. For Mobley, people were concerned that his seemingly elite defense was being massively buoyed by the presence of Allen in the paint. I think this has been proven true; Mobley looks like a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 and is certainly no defensive anchor.

If Cade can keep this level of play up for the rest of the year, I’d probably give him the award. He’s done more than other rookies to put to bed the questions surrounding him.

So for one, this isn't how ROY voting works. Plus, what has he shown to overcome doubts about his game? He's pretty much exactly what people projected.

ROY isn't a competition to see who's the best compared to what people thought they would be...

Cade has no shot at the award, the Pistons suck and while it's not his fault it 100% factors into the decision. That's even if you ignore the efficiency issues and putrid advanced metrics.

Also, the fact that you called Mobley a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 just proves that you haven't actually watched him play. He's an elite defender regardless of Allen. Yes, he's better when he can play the free safety role at the 4 but he's still elite at the 5. List out all of the 7 footers in the NBA who are switchable 1-5. I'll wait

Record has virtually no bearing on RoY historically. Cade wont win it because he has been too efficient ultimately, and got off to a really poor start. There were definitely questions about whether or not he could get to the rim due to his average athleticism, and his playmaking ability because he averaged 3.5 assists to 4 turnovers in college. He's obviously put those to rest.

I don't really agree with the notion pointed out earlier that he hasn't played winning basketball. Rookies tend to struggle with efficiency, but Cade has a great feel for the game and is exceptionally unselfish.

I think Mobley is deserving of RoY due to his consistency and level of play. Cade started awful and heated up, Barnes came firing out of the gates, cooled down, and then heated back up. Mobley has pretty consistently been steady for the cavs.

[jasonxxx102]

I don’t agree he doesn’t play winning basketball. The turnovers and efficiency things are valid to hold against him, but he plays with awful teammates and seems far and away the best player on the team already. They are atrocious without Cade and at least competitive in most matchups with him.

If anything, I think Cade has done the most of any of the top 3 to overcome doubts about his game. People were concerned about his assist/TO ratio and his ability to create his own shot but I believe he has put to bed those question marks. He has a positive ratio and he has shown the ability to create for himself. He can’t do it efficiently yet but a lot of that is because he commands the most defensive attention due to bad teammates.

The question marks around Scottie and Even haven’t been resolved in a satisfying manner IMO. People were concerned about Barnes’ shot and that his defense was worse than advertised. Barnes doesn’t have a reliable shot outside 10 feet and he is an average defender at best right now, more often than not slightly below average. For Mobley, people were concerned that his seemingly elite defense was being massively buoyed by the presence of Allen in the paint. I think this has been proven true; Mobley looks like a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 and is certainly no defensive anchor.

If Cade can keep this level of play up for the rest of the year, I’d probably give him the award. He’s done more than other rookies to put to bed the questions surrounding him.

So for one, this isn't how ROY voting works. Plus, what has he shown to overcome doubts about his game? He's pretty much exactly what people projected.

ROY isn't a competition to see who's the best compared to what people thought they would be...

Cade has no shot at the award, the Pistons suck and while it's not his fault it 100% factors into the decision. That's even if you ignore the efficiency issues and putrid advanced metrics.

Also, the fact that you called Mobley a pedestrian defender when he has to play the 5 just proves that you haven't actually watched him play. He's an elite defender regardless of Allen. Yes, he's better when he can play the free safety role at the 4 but he's still elite at the 5. List out all of the 7 footers in the NBA who are switchable 1-5. I'll wait

Record has virtually no bearing on RoY historically. Cade wont win it because he has been too efficient ultimately, and got off to a really poor start. There were definitely questions about whether or not he could get to the rim due to his average athleticism, and his playmaking ability because he averaged 3.5 assists to 4 turnovers in college. He's obviously put those to rest.

I don't really agree with the notion pointed out earlier that he hasn't played winning basketball. Rookies tend to struggle with efficiency, but Cade has a great feel for the game and is exceptionally unselfish.

I think Mobley is deserving of RoY due to his consistency and level of play. Cade started awful and heated up, Barnes came firing out of the gates, cooled down, and then heated back up. Mobley has pretty consistently been steady for the cavs.

When one player is so far ahead of the rest, sure. Have we seen an ROY race like this with 3 guys are pretty close? I say pretty close despite Cade being super inefficient.

Remember too people were projecting the Cavs to be one of the worst teams in the NBA this season and Mobley has certainly had a massive part in their unexpected turnaround so he's got that going for him too