[Camelo Thread Part 6] - Update: NJ tries again Pg. 71

[seren]

Or it could be Denver (again) throwing the Nets back into the mix to get NY to cave.

To cave for what? We have not heard a single Denver counter offer rumor. All we heard was they were not interested in our players. Do you know something that the rest of us do not know?

[towelie]

It was also reported a few days ago that Carmelo want to go to a team and bring a star with him. Knicks already have a star so obviously that doesn't include a trade with the Knicks. These are the Nets trade assets.

Devin Harris
Derrick Favors
5 first round picks (I believe its 5, correct me if I'm wrong)
Troy Murphy (expiring)
Sasha Vujacic (expiring)
Anthony Morrow

Looking at that, its common sense they have the trade assets to get at least another good player with Carmelo. The question is does Carmelo want to play for the Nets in general. Not the roster, but simply the organization. A few weeks or maybe even months back he made a comment wondering if the Nets were going to be like the Clippers when they move to Brooklyn.

One that thats for certain is this isn't going to just be a two team trade. This will definitely be a big trade.

It's going to be a multi-team trade with us too anyway, since Denver doesn't want AR or Gallo. Other teams, however, would be willing to give up assets for those two players.

[K_ick_God]

All along the best-case scenario has been to deal with the Carmelo situation once he's a free agent and those close to the Nuggets star know that would be the best situation for him from a basketball perspective, because he'd be joining a team without the roster losing any significant pieces from the rotation.

Imagine a front-court of Carmelo, Wilson and Amar'e Stoudemire. Yes, that does mean the continuation of small-ball, but the Knicks seem to be doing well playing this way (and when you need to run a grind-it-out halfcourt set, Melo is as good a post-up forward as there is in the game).

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketbal ... -1.2590226

[K_ick_God]

It was also reported a few days ago that Carmelo want to go to a team and bring a star with him. Knicks already have a star so obviously that doesn't include a trade with the Knicks. These are the Nets trade assets.

Devin Harris
Derrick Favors
5 first round picks (I believe its 5, correct me if I'm wrong)
Troy Murphy (expiring)
Sasha Vujacic (expiring)
Anthony Morrow

Looking at that, its common sense they have the trade assets to get at least another good player with Carmelo. The question is does Carmelo want to play for the Nets in general. Not the roster, but simply the organization. A few weeks or maybe even months back he made a comment wondering if the Nets were going to be like the Clippers when they move to Brooklyn.

One that thats for certain is this isn't going to just be a two team trade. This will definitely be a big trade.

I disagree with you again Duhon2Lee ... ooops I mean Justdatdude.

[AllanHoustonFan]

Or it could be Denver (again) throwing the Nets back into the mix to get NY to cave.

To cave for what? We have not heard a single Denver counter offer rumor. All we heard was they were not interested in our players. Do you know something that the rest of us do not know?

Via Alan Hahn

You can understand why D’Antoni winces whenever someone brings up trade rumors involving Carmelo Anthony. As much as the Knicks would love to add Anthony to their mix, as each game passes, the idea of including Chandler in a trade with the Nuggets – who, according to a person with knowledge of the situation, are quite fond of him – is met with stronger resistance.

There remains another caveat: Chandler will be a restricted free agent this summer and will need a contract, too. It will take some creative bookkeeping, but the plan is to carve out enough room to have the ability to sign Anthony and also re-sign Chandler.

[seren]

Or it could be Denver (again) throwing the Nets back into the mix to get NY to cave.

To cave for what? We have not heard a single Denver counter offer rumor. All we heard was they were not interested in our players. Do you know something that the rest of us do not know?

Via Alan Hahn

You can understand why D’Antoni winces whenever someone brings up trade rumors involving Carmelo Anthony. As much as the Knicks would love to add Anthony to their mix, as each game passes, the idea of including Chandler in a trade with the Nuggets – who, according to a person with knowledge of the situation, are quite fond of him – is met with stronger resistance.

There remains another caveat: Chandler will be a restricted free agent this summer and will need a contract, too. It will take some creative bookkeeping, but the plan is to carve out enough room to have the ability to sign Anthony and also re-sign Chandler.

I don't buy this story. Chandler has very low market value given his RFA status. The new CBA may completely get rid of the RFA and make Chandler eligible for FA market. Moreover, Chandler openly stated he does not want to go to Denver. Why would Denver trade for a player they may lose or overpay in the off-season? I don't believe Denver demanded Chandler and I don't believe the deal-breaker has been this demand.

[moocow007]

Or it could be Denver (again) throwing the Nets back into the mix to get NY to cave.

To cave for what? We have not heard a single Denver counter offer rumor. All we heard was they were not interested in our players. Do you know something that the rest of us do not know?

Via Alan Hahn

You can understand why D’Antoni winces whenever someone brings up trade rumors involving Carmelo Anthony. As much as the Knicks would love to add Anthony to their mix, as each game passes, the idea of including Chandler in a trade with the Nuggets – who, according to a person with knowledge of the situation, are quite fond of him – is met with stronger resistance.

There remains another caveat: Chandler will be a restricted free agent this summer and will need a contract, too. It will take some creative bookkeeping, but the plan is to carve out enough room to have the ability to sign Anthony and also re-sign Chandler.

How do the Knicks plan on carving out room when they don't even know what the size of the cake will be? Don't understand what Hahn is thinking. YOu'd think once his last "hairbrained" plan for the Knicks to do magical things this summer was caboshed by Larry Coon himself that he'd know better. Even assuming same salary cap and roughly same CBA the Knicks would have to not only find takers for Turiaf's $4M and change contract but also Gallianri and Randolphs contracts. And it can't even be for 1st round draft picks in 2011 since those count against the cap hold. At that point, there is still not "keeping the team in tact". In fact, unless something crazy happens and the players union masterminds a owner mind control device...or Melo and Chandler both decide to take HUGE discounts...there is no reality where the Knicks get Melo AND keep everyone.

[Fury]

All the Knicks have to do is trade Turiaf, Mosgov, and Randolph and they will have a decent shot at signing both Melo and Chandler. Maybe trade their 1st rounder for a future pick which isn't a big deal.

[moocow007]

All the Knicks have to do is trade Turiaf, Mosgov, and Randolph and they will have a decent shot at signing both Melo and Chandler. Maybe trade their 1st rounder for a future pick which isn't a big deal.

It really depends on the cap and what Chandler wants and can get elsewhere. The cap is extremely unlikely to stay the same and definitely won't be going up. But that can be countered by possible changes to the max salary for players in terms of new contracts under the CBA.

[stuporman]

The cap number might actually go higher, I could see that very easily. I think the biggest changes the owners will likely make the most impact is the guaranteed nature of some contracts. To give back they'll give some say in trade destinations with team lists.

I don't see salaries for stars and the type of max contracts that can be offered to be effected at all. The only ones who will feel it are the bottom 90% of contract sizes. Not the top 10%.

The second thing some owners are going to fight for are hard caps but I feel there will be enough loopholes for the teams to spend money above the cap and still will be penalized as before. It won't be an airtight hard cap.

[atribecalledrch]

Hey if we sign Melo this summer and keep Chandler how good will out bench be? Gallo, Douglas, Williams, Fields, Turiaf, Williams, Mozgov. Thatmight be a top 5 bench, don't you think? That team would be instant contenders.

[moocow007]

Hey if we sign Melo this summer and keep Chandler how good will out bench be? Gallo, Douglas, Williams, Fields, Turiaf, Williams, Mozgov. Thatmight be a top 5 bench, don't you think? That team would be instant contenders.

There is no way for the Knicks to sign Melo as a FA ($18.5M to start), keep Chandler (at 5 years $60 million) and keep basically everyone (obviously assuming that Stoudemire and Felton remain). You're looking at about $27 million alone for Melo and Chandler against the cap. Another $19 million for Stoudemire and $8 million for Felton. That makes about $54 million for just 4 guys. Turiaf will count a little over $4 million. Mozgove about $3 million. Gallinari roughly $4 million. Douglast $1.5 million. So another $12 or so million taking it up pass $66 million.

[FieldsMedal]

(I've kept this on my desktop).

$60m cap = $18m for Melo

Stat – 18.2
Melo - 18
Felton – 7.6
Chander cap hold – 6.4
Turiaf 4.4
Gallo 4.2
Mozgov 3.3
Randolph 3
Douglas 1.2
Walker .9
Fields .8
Rautins .8

$68.8m

What Chandler eventually signs for is NOT important, assuming he's willing to complete his contract after the Knicks maximize their cap spending.

If he's willing to play ball, Knicks slot him in at $6.4, use as much cap space as they have and THEN sign him to the 5/$60m deal.

[stuporman]

If the Knicks can get Melo and keep two of the three young guys out of Gallo, Chandler and Fields even if it also means losing TD, AR, Moz and Turiaf they still will be a better team next season and is a step in the right direction. Even though I like all of the youth the Knicks have they need to upgrade at the top 3 players on the roster to compete on an elite level with the other elite teams.

[atribecalledrch]

Hey if we sign Melo this summer and keep Chandler how good will out bench be? Gallo, Douglas, Williams, Fields, Turiaf, Williams, Mozgov. Thatmight be a top 5 bench, don't you think? That team would be instant contenders.

There is no way for the Knicks to sign Melo as a FA ($18.5M to start), keep Chandler (at 5 years $60 million) and keep basically everyone (obviously assuming that Stoudemire and Felton remain). You're looking at about $27 million alone for Melo and Chandler against the cap. Another $19 million for Stoudemire and $8 million for Felton. That makes about $54 million for just 4 guys. Turiaf will count a little over $4 million. Mozgove about $3 million. Gallinari roughly $4 million. Douglast $1.5 million. So another $12 or so million taking it up pass $66 million.

What if Chandler accepts his qualifying offer? Slim chance but what if?

[moocow007]

(I've kept this on my desktop).

$60m cap = $18m for Melo

Stat – 18.2
Melo - 18
Felton – 7.6
Chander cap hold – 6.4
Turiaf 4.4
Gallo 4.2
Mozgov 3.3
Randolph 3
Douglas 1.2
Walker .9
Fields .8
Rautins .8

$68.8m

What Chandler eventually signs for is NOT important, assuming he's willing to complete his contract after the Knicks maximize their cap spending.

If he's willing to play ball, Knicks slot him in at $6.4, use as much cap space as they have and THEN sign him to the 5/$60m deal.

Interesting. You're absolutely sure about this (as it has it been "authorized" by either our Knick board cap guru kosmo or Mr Coon himself?).

[moocow007]

Hey if we sign Melo this summer and keep Chandler how good will out bench be? Gallo, Douglas, Williams, Fields, Turiaf, Williams, Mozgov. Thatmight be a top 5 bench, don't you think? That team would be instant contenders.

There is no way for the Knicks to sign Melo as a FA ($18.5M to start), keep Chandler (at 5 years $60 million) and keep basically everyone (obviously assuming that Stoudemire and Felton remain). You're looking at about $27 million alone for Melo and Chandler against the cap. Another $19 million for Stoudemire and $8 million for Felton. That makes about $54 million for just 4 guys. Turiaf will count a little over $4 million. Mozgove about $3 million. Gallinari roughly $4 million. Douglast $1.5 million. So another $12 or so million taking it up pass $66 million.

What if Chandler accepts his qualifying offer? Slim chance but what if?

He won't but based on FM posted, maybe it doesn't matter and we're still ok.

[knicks742]

(I've kept this on my desktop).

$60m cap = $18m for Melo

Stat – 18.2
Melo - 18
Felton – 7.6
Chander cap hold – 6.4
Turiaf 4.4
Gallo 4.2
Mozgov 3.3
Randolph 3
Douglas 1.2
Walker .9
Fields .8
Rautins .8

$68.8m

What Chandler eventually signs for is NOT important, assuming he's willing to complete his contract after the Knicks maximize their cap spending.

If he's willing to play ball, Knicks slot him in at $6.4, use as much cap space as they have and THEN sign him to the 5/$60m deal.

Interesting. You're absolutely sure about this (as it has it been "authorized" by either our Knick board cap guru kosmo or Mr Coon himself?).

This is true. The bucks did this with Michael Redd when they maxed him out but not until after they had used all of their cap space on other players. He had a very low cap hold as a 2nd round player.

[stuporman]

(I've kept this on my desktop).

$60m cap = $18m for Melo

Stat – 18.2
Melo - 18
Felton – 7.6
Chander cap hold – 6.4
Turiaf 4.4
Gallo 4.2
Mozgov 3.3
Randolph 3
Douglas 1.2
Walker .9
Fields .8
Rautins .8

$68.8m

What Chandler eventually signs for is NOT important, assuming he's willing to complete his contract after the Knicks maximize their cap spending.

If he's willing to play ball, Knicks slot him in at $6.4, use as much cap space as they have and THEN sign him to the 5/$60m deal.

If those numbers are correct and the cap winds up being what you've suggested it could be the Knicks could actually keep both Chandler and Turiaf while getting Melo if players like Moz, AR, Douglas and Rautins are moved with no cap hit coming back or for future considerations as well as this year's first round pick being moved for no cap hit or future considerations. All of that isn't far from possible at all.

Donnie has alot of options to work with and it's still well before the trade deadline also with draft day deals able to be made to make room as well. He's got great cards on the table no matter who he can fit on the roster as far as accessories to a star with next season's cap.

[FieldsMedal]

This is true. The bucks did this with Michael Redd when they maxed him out but not until after they had used all of their cap space on other players. He had a very low cap hold as a 2nd round player.

What he said.

These are Bird Rights in action - their intended use.

I think what's throwing people is they tend to think of cap rules as rules of prevention, keeping teams from doing things.

It allows teams to do things too.

The x-factor here is Wilson Chandler is now outplaying his 23rd pick status. As such, even though his cap hold is 300% of his previous salary (the CBA's largest threshold), because his rookie salary slot only guarantees him $2m and change this season, his cap hold will be the rare bargain (it's usually the opposite).

Example: Next year Gallinari's cap hold will be $12.6m.

The CBA giveth, and the CBA taketh away.