OFFICIAL - Amare Must Go Thread (all hate here) #TRADESTAT

[GONYK]

okay, our team played good defense. they were not a good rebounding team. they were by all measures mediocre (hollinger had them at 16 in rebounding) ... but more importantly, they didn't win! who cares if they're good at defense if it's not leading to w's?

I don't care how it gets done, I just want W's. there are more than 1 ways to skin a cat. I think my theoretical team is a team that has an identity--it's a good fit under the d'antoni model. I don't know what model our current team fits under ... the chuck and duck model I guess

We didn't win because we didn't have a PG. If we had someone to run our offense from day 1, we would have had a better record, provided we still played defense and rebounded.

There are more than one ways to skin a cat, but I don't think an Amare/Gallo frontcourt, players who are weak interior defenders and weak rebounders, and a back court involving Kevin Martin, who will be a revolving door straight into the paint is better.

In fact, all you need is Kyle Lowry (or any PG who can run an offense) to make last year's team head and shoulders above the roster you put together IMO.

[knicksosmoove]

I think you're remembering Sacto Kevin Martin. Houston's Kevin Martin is a near liability on both ends. His offense might look good on paper, but he has 0 impact on games.

He's known as the Invisible Man here.

I just don't get what you mean. if someone's giving you 20-25 points like k mart does, it's 20-25 points. ronnie brewer isn't going to give us 25 points. iman shumpert isn't going to give us 25 points. kidd, camby, kurt, and tyson won't do it. ray and amar'e won't do it most nights. I'd love to have a guy who could give us 20 points efficiently.

I know he doesn't "impact" the game like others because he doesn't create for himself .. but that wouldn't be his role ... he'd be a guy who could pour it on on occasion, another guy who could step up on any night

[knicksosmoove]

okay, our team played good defense. they were not a good rebounding team. they were by all measures mediocre (hollinger had them at 16 in rebounding) ... but more importantly, they didn't win! who cares if they're good at defense if it's not leading to w's?

I don't care how it gets done, I just want W's. there are more than 1 ways to skin a cat. I think my theoretical team is a team that has an identity--it's a good fit under the d'antoni model. I don't know what model our current team fits under ... the chuck and duck model I guess

We didn't win because we didn't have a PG. If we had someone to run our offense from day 1, we would have had a better record, provided we still played defense and rebounded.

There are more than one ways to skin a cat, but I don't think an Amare/Gallo frontcourt, players who are weak interior defenders and weak rebounders, and a back court involving Kevin Martin, who will be a revolving door straight into the paint is better.

In fact, all you need is Kyle Lowry (or any PG who can run an offense) to make last year's team head and shoulders above the roster you put together IMO.

mannnnnnnnnn

they didn't have a point guard. because they couldn't get one. because they gave up their assets so they could get carmelo, amar'e, and tyson together. so they had to have toney douglas be the point guard. it's all connected. they lucked out and got jeremy lin for a minute, but even he couldn't make amar'e and carmelo and tyson look good together.


and if we are allowed to have last year's team magically acquire kyle lowry then I'm allowed to have my fake team magically acquire marc gasol (how about k mart now comes off the bench?) and I think that makes them a VERY complete team

I just don't get why we give this group so much credit when they haven't done anything! if it weren't for jeremy lin, they probably wouldn't have even made the playoffs last year!!!! I'm STILL waiting for the GREATNESS of having 2 STAR PLAYERS to show itself! All I've been is disappointed!!!!!

[jeremylin17]

it's on basketball reference.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W (good game, I don't think Amar'e played)
2-11 versus Lakers: L (no shame in that but people overreacted)
2-9 versus Clippers: L (that one made me mad)
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L (don't remember)
2-2 versus Mavericks: L (no shame in that whatsoever)
1-30 versus Pistons: W (the MOZGOD game)
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W (BIG TIME GAME FROM LANDRY FIELDS AND DANILO GALLINARI)

sooooo 5-5. not great. not a tailspin.

Thanks for the source. Let me correct myself. Here are the 20 games before the trade.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W
2-11 versus Lakers: L
2-9 versus Clippers: L
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L
2-2 versus Mavericks: L
1-30 versus Pistons: W
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W
1-24 versus Washington W
1-22 versus OKC L
1-21 versus San Antonio L
1-19 versus Houston L
1-17 versus Phoenix L
1-14 versus Sacto L
1-12 versus Utah L
1-11 versus Portland W
1-9 versus LAL L
1-7 versus Phoenix W

8-11, with some very bad losses.

Perhaps you're correct. Not a tailspin as a I remember it. But I do remember feeling like the team was trending downward.

LOok at the team during sacramento and after. Thats the time when walsh And CAA were talking about the trade and its also the time when chandler wants to change agents. Chandler has never been the same again thats why we lost 5 straight games whereas the sacramento game and phoenix game before, we destroyed them at their homefloor.

[knicksosmoove]

it's on basketball reference.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W (good game, I don't think Amar'e played)
2-11 versus Lakers: L (no shame in that but people overreacted)
2-9 versus Clippers: L (that one made me mad)
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L (don't remember)
2-2 versus Mavericks: L (no shame in that whatsoever)
1-30 versus Pistons: W (the MOZGOD game)
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W (BIG TIME GAME FROM LANDRY FIELDS AND DANILO GALLINARI)

sooooo 5-5. not great. not a tailspin.

Thanks for the source. Let me correct myself. Here are the 20 games before the trade.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W
2-11 versus Lakers: L
2-9 versus Clippers: L
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L
2-2 versus Mavericks: L
1-30 versus Pistons: W
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W
1-24 versus Washington W
1-22 versus OKC L
1-21 versus San Antonio L
1-19 versus Houston L
1-17 versus Phoenix L
1-14 versus Sacto L
1-12 versus Utah L
1-11 versus Portland W
1-9 versus LAL L
1-7 versus Phoenix W

8-11, with some very bad losses.

Perhaps you're correct. Not a tailspin as a I remember it. But I do remember feeling like the team was trending downward.

GONYK, come on my man. you are not dumb but you make yourself seem silly when you start writing silly things so that the world matches the conclusions you want to reach.

okay, so they were 8-11 over 20. let's just go back a couple more games and they're back to 500. yeah, those losses to the kings and suns pissed me off royally. so what? they were a decent team. they beat the heat twice in a row, that was fun. if you go back earlier, they had a very nice streak of winnings. I remember the thunder sent their bench out with 5 minutes to go because the knicks were up by 15 or something. spurs did the same thing. they were not a bad team at all and they had cap space and gallo still had plenty of room for improvement.

I don't think they were trending downward. I think they hit a rough patch for a while but they were starting to pick it back up again.

[jeremylin17]

Why do people think amare cant play with a center. He has been an mvp candidate with lopez as the center during 2010, and he has been an mvp candidate during shaq. He just needs a pg and players who are willing to move the ball coz hes a type of player that performs well if the team is playing within the flow of the offense. Amare has been starting to play well with lin until melo came. Lin at that time too started to average double digit assists. The problem really is melo. Its just not amare that became bad with him but also lin and you can put fields in there.

[GONYK]

it's on basketball reference.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W (good game, I don't think Amar'e played)
2-11 versus Lakers: L (no shame in that but people overreacted)
2-9 versus Clippers: L (that one made me mad)
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L (don't remember)
2-2 versus Mavericks: L (no shame in that whatsoever)
1-30 versus Pistons: W (the MOZGOD game)
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W (BIG TIME GAME FROM LANDRY FIELDS AND DANILO GALLINARI)

sooooo 5-5. not great. not a tailspin.

Thanks for the source. Let me correct myself. Here are the 20 games before the trade.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W
2-11 versus Lakers: L
2-9 versus Clippers: L
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L
2-2 versus Mavericks: L
1-30 versus Pistons: W
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W
1-24 versus Washington W
1-22 versus OKC L
1-21 versus San Antonio L
1-19 versus Houston L
1-17 versus Phoenix L
1-14 versus Sacto L
1-12 versus Utah L
1-11 versus Portland W
1-9 versus LAL L
1-7 versus Phoenix W

8-11, with some very bad losses.

Perhaps you're correct. Not a tailspin as a I remember it. But I do remember feeling like the team was trending downward.

GONYK, come on my man. you are not dumb but you make yourself seem silly when you start writing silly things so that the world matches the conclusions you want to reach.

okay, so they were 8-11 over 20. let's just go back a couple more games and they're back to 500. yeah, those losses to the kings and suns pissed me off royally. so what? they were a decent team. they beat the heat twice in a row, that was fun. if you go back earlier, they had a very nice streak of winnings. I remember the thunder sent their bench out with 5 minutes to go because the knicks were up by 15 or something. spurs did the same thing. they were not a bad team at all and they had cap space and gallo still had plenty of room for improvement.

I don't think they were trending downward. I think they hit a rough patch for a while but they were starting to pick it back up again.

I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything. I was just stating what my perception of the time before the trade was. I even admitted perhaps I overstated things.

I still don't feel that team was going to hold steady where we were though. I don't think the Melo trade we made was the answer either, btw.

I agree with getting Melo, but not the trade we made to get him. I don't think that rolling with an Amare/Gallo frontcourt wins you anything in this league though.

[knicksosmoove]

the amar'e/gallo front court would have problems defensively ... we'd probably bring in a couple of back-up bigs to specialize in defense ... kind of like turiaf for that team... it doesn't matter too much to me, though. that team wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be good.

[ibraheim718]

The way I remember it is that 2010 team was most certainly trending downwards... the Pups couldn't handle the trade talk and if the Pups couldn't handle the trade talk they mist certainly wouldn't have been able to handle a chase for the 8 seed.

[aggo]

gonyk is 100% right about the 2010 team


we were a 1 trick pony then, and Gallo/WC just did show up enough for the games to make us a great team.

[Leaguepass]

Trading Amar'e only makes sense if you replace him with a player or two that fit clearly better on this team. Most of the proposals I've read here do not make much sense. Despite Stat's mediocre rebounding , rebounding shouldn't be a huge problem with Tyson,Camby,KT,Melo in the frontcourt and Kidd in the backcourt. While it is always good to have a 10+rebound guy at PF it is not a make or break for this team. In conclusion it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to change Stat for Lee,Boozer or Zach as all of them are equally awful on defense and not really more effective on offense. Despite his weak season last year Stat still got 18/8 on close to 50% shooting. Not good for 100mill. but those other guys are neither much better fits nor much better in general. At least Stat can block 1 or two shots at times while those other offer no rim protection at all. Boozer and Zach have also problems scoring against tall defenders at that position due to lack of height/athleticism.

I've looked at every single team in this league and thought about what makes sense etc. and the only scenario I could see that might have some merit for both teams would be a swap centered around Stat for Bargnani. Melo/Tyson both like to operate and finish plays in the paint therefore we'd need a stretch 4 to make an ideal fit. Add to that that our long distance shooting is iffy right now so getting Bargnani would make some sense. The Raptors have already a bunch of 3 point shooters or trigger happy guys in general in Lowry,Calderon,Kleiza,DeRozan etc. so I could see them entertaining the idea of having a finisher in the paint. That said chances of that happening are probably less than 1% as well. I'm also not a huge fan of Bargnani but IMO he makes more sense than a Boozer for example. Let us just hope Woodson can make Stat play average defense and get 9 boards a game.

The way it really looks we are stuck with Stat so Woodson needs to find ways to maximize his effectiveness.

[clipse375]

Trading Amar'e only makes sense if you replace him with a player or two that fit clearly better on this team. Most of the proposals I've read here do not make much sense. Despite Stat's mediocre rebounding , rebounding shouldn't be a huge problem with Tyson,Camby,KT,Melo in the frontcourt and Kidd in the backcourt. While it is always good to have a 10+rebound guy at PF it is not a make or break for this team. In conclusion it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to change Stat for Lee,Boozer or Zach as all of them are equally awful on defense and not really more effective on offense. Despite his weak season last year Stat still got 18/8 on close to 50% shooting. Not good for 100mill. but those other guys are neither much better fits nor much better in general. At least Stat can block 1 or two shots at times while those other offer no rim protection at all. Boozer and Zach have also problems scoring against tall defenders at that position due to lack of height/athleticism.

I've looked at every single team in this league and thought about what makes sense etc. and the only scenario I could see that might have some merit for both teams would be a swap centered around Stat for Bargnani. Melo/Tyson both like to operate and finish plays in the paint therefore we'd need a stretch 4 to make an ideal fit. Add to that that our long distance shooting is iffy right now so getting Bargnani would make some sense. The Raptors have already a bunch of 3 point shooters or trigger happy guys in general in Lowry,Calderon,Kleiza,DeRozan etc. so I could see them entertaining the idea of having a finisher in the paint. That said chances of that happening are probably less than 1% as well. I'm also not a huge fan of Bargnani but IMO he makes more sense than a Boozer for example. Let us just hope Woodson can make Stat play average defense and get 9 boards a game.

The way it really looks we are stuck with Stat so Woodson needs to find ways to maximize his effectiveness.

Good post. I agree Amar'e unfortunately isn't going anywhere. There aren't many better options out there right now at the 4. I doubt he'll ever commit to defense, but with all these defensive minded bigs on this squad, hopefully he'll get motivated by that.

[Knicks_Fan2]

it's on basketball reference.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W (good game, I don't think Amar'e played)
2-11 versus Lakers: L (no shame in that but people overreacted)
2-9 versus Clippers: L (that one made me mad)
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L (don't remember)
2-2 versus Mavericks: L (no shame in that whatsoever)
1-30 versus Pistons: W (the MOZGOD game)
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W (BIG TIME GAME FROM LANDRY FIELDS AND DANILO GALLINARI)

sooooo 5-5. not great. not a tailspin.

Thanks for the source. Let me correct myself. Here are the 20 games before the trade.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W
2-11 versus Lakers: L
2-9 versus Clippers: L
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L
2-2 versus Mavericks: L
1-30 versus Pistons: W
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W
1-24 versus Washington W
1-22 versus OKC L
1-21 versus San Antonio L
1-19 versus Houston L
1-17 versus Phoenix L
1-14 versus Sacto L
1-12 versus Utah L
1-11 versus Portland W
1-9 versus LAL L
1-7 versus Phoenix W

8-11, with some very bad losses.

Perhaps you're correct. Not a tailspin as a I remember it. But I do remember feeling like the team was trending downward.

GONYK, come on my man. you are not dumb but you make yourself seem silly when you start writing silly things so that the world matches the conclusions you want to reach.

okay, so they were 8-11 over 20. let's just go back a couple more games and they're back to 500. yeah, those losses to the kings and suns pissed me off royally. so what? they were a decent team. they beat the heat twice in a row, that was fun. if you go back earlier, they had a very nice streak of winnings. I remember the thunder sent their bench out with 5 minutes to go because the knicks were up by 15 or something. spurs did the same thing. they were not a bad team at all and they had cap space and gallo still had plenty of room for improvement.

I don't think they were trending downward. I think they hit a rough patch for a while but they were starting to pick it back up again.

They did not beat the heat twice in a row.

[Knicks_Fan2]

[quote="knicksosmoove"]

it's on basketball reference.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W (good game, I don't think Amar'e played)
2-11 versus Lakers: L (no shame in that but people overreacted)
2-9 versus Clippers: L (that one made me mad)
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L (don't remember)
2-2 versus Mavericks: L (no shame in that whatsoever)
1-30 versus Pistons: W (the MOZGOD game)
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W (BIG TIME GAME FROM LANDRY FIELDS AND DANILO GALLINARI)

sooooo 5-5. not great. not a tailspin.

Thanks for the source. Let me correct myself. Here are the 20 games before the trade.

2-16 versus Hawks: W
2-12 versus Nets: W
2-11 versus Lakers: L
2-9 versus Clippers: L
2-6 versus 76ers: W
2-4 versus 76ers: L
2-2 versus Mavericks: L
1-30 versus Pistons: W
1-28 versus Hawks: L
1-27 versus Heat: W
1-24 versus Washington W
1-22 versus OKC L
1-21 versus San Antonio L
1-19 versus Houston L
1-17 versus Phoenix L
1-14 versus Sacto L
1-12 versus Utah L
1-11 versus Portland W
1-9 versus LAL L
1-7 versus Phoenix W

8-11, with some very bad losses.

Perhaps you're correct. Not a tailspin as a I remember it. But I do remember feeling like the team was trending downward.

GONYK, come on my man. you are not dumb but you make yourself seem silly when you start writing silly things so that the world matches the conclusions you want to reach.

okay, so they were 8-11 over 20. let's just go back a couple more games and they're back to 500. yeah, those losses to the kings and suns pissed me off royally. so what? they were a decent team. they beat the heat twice in a row, that was fun. if you go back earlier, they had a very nice streak of winnings. I remember the thunder sent their bench out with 5 minutes to go because the knicks were up by 15 or something. spurs did the same thing. they were not a bad team at all and they had cap space and gallo still had plenty of room for improvement.

I don't think they were trending downward. I think they hit a rough patch for a while but they were starting to pick it back up again.

They did not beat the heat twice in a row.[/quote]

Also cap space gone after you extend chandler and gallo but this discussion has been had many times prior so ill stop.

[seren]

I think rebounding is a problem. Even with all the names mentioned on the roster. I'd be glad to get David Lee as he can do things Amare doesn't: Hit the offensive boards, get garbage points and hit the open mid-range with more consistency. I don't like his extra year though.

[moocow007]

I think rebounding is a problem. Even with all the names mentioned on the roster. I'd be glad to get David Lee as he can do things Amare doesn't: Hit the offensive boards, get garbage points and hit the open mid-range with more consistency. I don't like his extra year though.

Yeah that extra year of $15M and change could be a significant issue if they (finally) decide to redo things after 3 years. At this point I think they just got to keep the path and expect Stoudemire to be able to at least contribute something significant instead of trying to shuck him for what may be more damaging down the road. If a no brainer turns up then sure, but right now, with the latest knee issue, the Knicks aren't going to get diddly for Stoudemire. IF Stoudemire comes back and even manages to only go close to 18/8 (like he did last season) they should be able to find a couple teams that might be interested in working a deal. Obviously would likely include similar "situationed" players but the goal there would be to look for a better fit.

[Rasho Brezec]

In that extra year, there'd be Lee, Felton if he picks up his option, Novak, and Shumpert. That's around $25M which isn't bad at all. We'd also shed around $8M in capspace the year before which could be important to the FO once the new tax rules kick in. Golden State only has rookie contracts in the year of Amare's expiring, so his contract might look enticing to them. Not to mention how better this team would look with a guy who rebounds, passes and doesn't need the ball to be effective.

[Orange Mamba]

Bogut
Amare
Rush
Thompson
Curry

that team looks dangerous too. Amare would definitely fit in better there, that's for sure

[TKF]

the amar'e/gallo front court would have problems defensively ... we'd probably bring in a couple of back-up bigs to specialize in defense ... kind of like turiaf for that team... it doesn't matter too much to me, though. that team wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be good.

GALLO WASN't a bad defender actually, but we could have added a number of guys who could defend the center spot.. just think of someone like chuck hayes.. great defender, rebounder and he would not get in amare's way.. I don't think that team was trending down at all.. like most young team, they hit rough patches.. as I said, how many teams in the league giving 3 young players heavy rotation minutes anchored by an allstar player are even sniffing .500 ball? look around the league, this league is filled with good young talented teams that are so far under .500 they are at risk of being relegated to the CBA......

the knicks had amare, felton and a bunch of kids it seemed, and they were 28-26 before the trade.... I have to pretty much assume they would be playing close to .500 and grabbing that 8th seed... and there is no rule that we had to keep the team as is.. we had flexibility, picks, cap space.... there were a lot of other moves we could have made... I keep hearing we were going nowhere with gallo and amare front line.. I still ask? where are we now? where are we going with what we have now?

[seren]

In that extra year, there'd be Lee, Felton if he picks up his option, Novak, and Shumpert. That's around $25M which isn't bad at all. We'd also shed around $8M in capspace the year before which could be important to the FO once the new tax rules kick in. Golden State only has rookie contracts in the year of Amare's expiring, so his contract might look enticing to them. Not to mention how better this team would look with a guy who rebounds, passes and doesn't need the ball to be effective.

I would assume we would extend Melo and Shump would need to be extended too. So I don't think much money will be left. But no worries. It is a given Shump will be traded by then as it is a Knicks tradition not to keep their draft picks beyond their rookie contracts.