The Tank Debate Thread

[Landomar]

Well, there's no question that you have to do well with draft picks to become a good team in the NBA. Every single team in the top 10 (record wise) last year had some good picks to thank for it. Furthermore, top 5 picks in particular are usually involved.

Miami - Wade (5) + free agents
OKC - Durant (2), Westbrook (4), etc.
San Antonio - Duncan (1), the late finds of Parker and Ginobili
Denver - Carmelo (3) who they traded for stuff, plus Lawson (18), Faried (22), and others
Clippers - Griffin (1), traded for Paul using Gordon (7) + stuff, Jordan in the 2nd round, etc.
Memphis - P.Gasol (3) who got traded for stuff + M.Gasol (who surprised), Conley (4), Randolph gamble
New York - Gallinari (6) + stuff for Carmelo, used free agency
Indiana - George (10), Hibbert (17), traded 15th pick for Hill, Stephenson in 2nd round, free agency
Brooklyn - Favors (3) for Deron, B.Lopez (10), spent a bajillion dollars
Golden State - Curry (7), Barnes (7), Thompson (11), free agency

So, every top 10 team from last season used at least one quality top 10 pick at some point as part of their "becoming good" process. However, it's interesting that OKC is the only good team that relied on multiple top 5 picks as part of their success story, with the mini-exception of Memphis (as the whole Pau for Marc thing was really fluky, in their favour. No one thought Marc would be this good).

We have Valanciunas (5). He's a piece that we can believe in. Depending on how we do with our mid to late firsts in the future, and with free agency (historically we've sucked at this), it could be possible to "Indiana" our way to a good team. If we decide to tank for another high draft pick, that would be great, as Val by himself looks pretty lonely right now. Still, if Ujiri really believes in his ability to draft well with later picks, make good value trades, and use free agency wisely, then it's certainly possible that he could succeed by just building on what have now.

[DatBoiCapspace]

I don’t think that he’ll ever commit whole hog to tanking because it tends to kill flexibility and the odds are too long that you actually get a payout at the end worthy of the sacrifice.

you’d probably lose value in any transaction that respects the hopes of being bad enough next year to ‘compete’ with the league’s worst teams. Losing value in a trade is almost never a good management strategy, and it certainly runs counter to Ujiri’s history as a team GM.

Tanking is an ugly business, and despite the strategy’s growing number of supporters, it guarantees nothing and hasn’t exactly proven to be a more viable path to rebuilding than any other route. Like I said, it’s a strategy, one of many, and not one that I think the Raptors would benefit from employing in the immediate future.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/07/ ... r-tanking/

People need to stare at these three Chisholm quotes until their brains soak it up.

This tank or treadmill debate is total bogus, you have been lied to. The reality is tanking actually tends to lead a team to the treadmill more then building on our situation would.

Losing value in trades is the dumbest thing we can do now in our situation, we should look to acquire assets instead of dumping them for more ping pong balls, thats not a real plan and thats not Masais way.

Tell that to Cavs, who after getting LeBron went to the finals without having any other good players. Tell that to Miami, who won the championship mainly because of Wade and formed the big three again mainly because of Wade. Tell that to Denver, who were able to get to the Western Conference finals mainly because of Melo and then were able to flip him for a whole bunch of assets. Tell that to 76ers, who only because of AI were able to get to the finals. Tell that to Magic, who were able to get to the finals mainly because of Dwight. If that's considered being a treadmill team, sign me up. Or do you want to be a real treadmill team and always hope to get lucky enough to get the 6-8th seed at the last moment possible to just get demolished in the 1st round?

Tell that to the 57% of teams who either miss the playoffs altogether or cant get past the first round in the 4 years after drafting a top 3 lotto pick. Or do you want to be a real treadmill team and always hope to get lucky enough to win the #1 pick in a year it actually helps you?

You might also find it interesting to take a look at the season preview of the only team you listed that actually won a championship, the Miami Heat, the year they got Wade. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... w/#outlook

Good thing Riley didnt take Hollingers advice and trade all their vets or else they never would have won a title.

[DatBoiCapspace]

I don’t think that he’ll ever commit whole hog to tanking because it tends to kill flexibility and the odds are too long that you actually get a payout at the end worthy of the sacrifice.

you’d probably lose value in any transaction that respects the hopes of being bad enough next year to ‘compete’ with the league’s worst teams. Losing value in a trade is almost never a good management strategy, and it certainly runs counter to Ujiri’s history as a team GM.

Tanking is an ugly business, and despite the strategy’s growing number of supporters, it guarantees nothing and hasn’t exactly proven to be a more viable path to rebuilding than any other route. Like I said, it’s a strategy, one of many, and not one that I think the Raptors would benefit from employing in the immediate future.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/07/ ... r-tanking/

People need to stare at these three Chisholm quotes until their brains soak it up.

This tank or treadmill debate is total bogus, you have been lied to. The reality is tanking actually tends to lead a team to the treadmill more then building on our situation would.

Losing value in trades is the dumbest thing we can do now in our situation, we should look to acquire assets instead of dumping them for more ping pong balls, thats not a real plan and thats not Masais way.

How do those quotes prove or support anything?


- nothing is guaranteed. That strawman has been covered 32,000 times
- 'flexibility' and tanking or not tanking are completely independant. Masai could trade, say Lowry for a bad contract and a high pick - which would reduce flexibility. Or he could trade, say Demar for an expiring useless player and gain flexibility.
- the odds of a reward from tanking may or may not be long but they are greater than trying to obtain that same reward any other way
- losing value only happens if you don't successful use the draft. Sam Presti traded a HoF player in Ray Allen at his peak for a #6 pick. It helped him net Russel Westbrook when they lost games. Cleveland traded Mo Williams for Baron Davis and a lottery pick, that lottery pick became Kyrie Irving. Thats clearly great value.

Chisolms write up in no way counters the tank argument. In fact most of the arguments he makes are mutually exclusive from each other.

What Chisolm is claiming is that since the Raptors can't get ideal returns on their players, because their players are not valuable enough (ie. Gay/Lowry/DD), therefore they shouldn't tank. Which is ridiculous. If the Raptors players were valuable, there would be no reason to tank as the team would most likely be good and/or have great assets to trade.

Its a wasted write up - its pure 'we should accept mediocrity this year again'. Another great example of how irrelevant Toronto's media personnel is.

Its an amazing factual writeup that supports how stupid it is to trade away assets for pennies on the dollar. It fully counters the tank argument by correctly stating that the odds are the return on the draft pick wont make up for the lost value in the crappy trades we made to get it.

The Cleveland trade is a terrible example, because its a great value trade. Tank or no tank, nobody on this board would be against taking advantage of the cheapness of Donald Sterling.

The Thunder trade however is a good example, because it shows how many things have to go right for a tank trade like that to workout. How many Russell Westbrooks are available at number 4? And how can you even claim that trading Ray Allen was the reason they got him, when the year before they had both Allen and Lewis and ended up drafting Durant at #2. Clearly luck plays a bigger role here then you care to admit, not to mention that they still got a guaranteed top 5 draft pick in Jeff Green and were very high on him, even passing on Noah to take him. So clearly the draft is not an exact science even for the great Sam Presti. Best to let Masai do his thing and collect assets instead of dump them all for that illuring top 3 pick that doesnt even help teams get out of the treadmill most of the time.

[ansoncarter]

I give it 3 years until you figure out how wrong you are/were about this issue

[DatBoiCapspace]

I give it 3 years until you figure out how wrong you are/were about this issue

Lol the Bobcats could win the next 3 titles and the data still wont change in three years time, thats how bad the odds are for building a contender through tanking. So no, I am right along with Chisolm and ESPN and the Statisticians and Masai Ujiri. Tanking doesnt increase your odds in becoming a contender, you need to wrap your head around that.

[gerrit4]

I don't disagree with the pro-tankers, as I think it makes sense to take advantage of an obvious flaw in the system.

That being said, the fact that this league rewards tanking is pretty awful. In an attempt to create parity, they've created a system where ten teams intentionally lose every year. You can't have parity when you reward crappyness. I'd much rather see a system where the Heat or Spurs could have won the lottery this year, instead of the trash that happens with tanking.

I remember last season watching our final game against the Nets, in an ultimate tank-off, with Ben Uzoh getting a triple double and Solomon Alabi getting a double double. Neither player has played in the NBA since. That game was a total joke, and should not have been televised, nor played in front of paying customers.

Again, I'm not saying that doesn't mean we shouldn't tank, just that the system is broken. Heck, back in 2003, if the spurs sat Tim, Manu and Parker for the entire season, and asked the rest of the roster to half-ass it, they could have ended up with Lebron, Wade, Bosh or Melo to that core - being an even better team for the next ten years. Instead they won a championship that year, and won two more with their core. If they were "smart," they could have just tanked the whole season, and owned the league for the next 10 years with Lebron on their side.

[ansoncarter]

just remember what happens

and if what happens is the same thing that always happens? for like the past 18 years? please just remember

because we need more fans to figure this treadmilling scam out

[ATLTimekeeper]

That NJ Nets game is a classic example of the pitfalls of playing the moral high ground. They threw the game. We played to win. It cost us Damien Lillard and Harrison Barnes and probably cost BC his job. Of the players in the game, guess how many are still Raptors? Zero. And only two of those players were on the team starting last year. So, MLSE gets to hang their head up high and right now the Nyets are in line to contend for a championship and we're playing wait n' see with a roster that will probably be overhauled at Ujiri's leisure.

[DatBoiCapspace]

just remember what happens

and if what happens is the same thing that always happens? for like the past 18 years? please just remember

because we need more fans to figure this treadmilling scam out

I remember the dozen or so lotto picks we got in the past 18 years, and how none of them helped us become a contender. We need to get off the treadmill and start winning games.

[DatBoiCapspace]

That NJ Nets game is a classic example of the pitfalls of playing the moral high ground. They threw the game. We played to win. It cost us Damien Lillard and Harrison Barnes and probably cost BC his job. Of the players in the game, guess how many are still Raptors? Zero. And only two of those players were on the team starting last year. So, MLSE gets to hang their head up high and right now the Nyets are in line to contend for a championship and we're playing wait n' see with a roster that will probably be overhauled at Ujiri's leisure.

Lol dont take things out of proportion. The Nets losing the game had literally no impact on whether they became a contender or not.

Youre right that it did cost us Lillard/Barnes, but how can you say with a straight face that we took the moral highground? We sent out a roster of D-Leaguers and won a home game at the end of the year. What did you want them to do? Sign a bunch of RealGMers to play the last ten games instead?

Tanking just does not work out the way you want it to sometimes. You cant pencil in 70 losses just like you cant pencil in 70 wins. Some other teams out there suck too you know.

[nodeal]

I don't disagree with the pro-tankers, as I think it makes sense to take advantage of an obvious flaw in the system.

That being said, the fact that this league rewards tanking is pretty awful. In an attempt to create parity, they've created a system where ten teams intentionally lose every year. You can't have parity when you reward crappyness. I'd much rather see a system where the Heat or Spurs could have won the lottery this year, instead of the trash that happens with tanking.

I remember last season watching our final game against the Nets, in an ultimate tank-off, with Ben Uzoh getting a triple double and Solomon Alabi getting a double double. Neither player has played in the NBA since. That game was a total joke, and should not have been televised, nor played in front of paying customers.

Again, I'm not saying that doesn't mean we shouldn't tank, just that the system is broken. Heck, back in 2003, if the spurs sat Tim, Manu and Parker for the entire season, and asked the rest of the roster to half-ass it, they could have ended up with Lebron, Wade, Bosh or Melo to that core - being an even better team for the next ten years. Instead they won a championship that year, and won two more with their core. If they were "smart," they could have just tanked the whole season, and owned the league for the next 10 years with Lebron on their side.

Im not a fan of the system either. Im a supporter of every non playoff team and every 1st round loser having an equal shot at the #1-#3 picks. No team in the 1st round is going to intentionally lose for a 1/22 shot at the #1 pick.

That said this team is in dire need of a rebuild. Our chances at 9th-10th are just too great to go for it. It being a 1st round exit.

[gerrit4]

That NJ Nets game is a classic example of the pitfalls of playing the moral high ground. They threw the game. We played to win. It cost us Damien Lillard and Harrison Barnes and probably cost BC his job. Of the players in the game, guess how many are still Raptors? Zero. And only two of those players were on the team starting last year. So, MLSE gets to hang their head up high and right now the Nyets are in line to contend for a championship and we're playing wait n' see with a roster that will probably be overhauled at Ujiri's leisure.

We played Ben Uzoh and Soloman Alabi over 40 minutes each - two guys who had career nights in and never played another game in the NBA. That was the worst game I've ever seen. Trust me, the raptors were not trying to win that game, but somebody has to win. We got out-tanked that game, they were just better at sucking.

Please don't tell me that a team playing Soloman Alabi and Ben Uzoh for 40 minutes was trying to win the game. That's just absurd.

[ATLTimekeeper]

That NJ Nets game is a classic example of the pitfalls of playing the moral high ground. They threw the game. We played to win. It cost us Damien Lillard and Harrison Barnes and probably cost BC his job. Of the players in the game, guess how many are still Raptors? Zero. And only two of those players were on the team starting last year. So, MLSE gets to hang their head up high and right now the Nyets are in line to contend for a championship and we're playing wait n' see with a roster that will probably be overhauled at Ujiri's leisure.

We played Ben Uzoh and Soloman Alabi over 40 minutes each - two guys who had career nights in and never played another game in the NBA. That was the worst game I've ever seen. Trust me, the raptors were not trying to win that game, but somebody has to win. We got out-tanked that game, they were just better at sucking.

Please don't tell me that a team playing Soloman Alabi and Ben Uzoh for 40 minutes was trying to win the game. That's just absurd.

No, but they didn't tell them in no way can we win the game. We blew them out. One team had instructions, the other was allowed to just play hard and see what happens. Anyway, minor quibble. In the end it got BC out of town and that was the best possible outcome. My point is you can't hang your hat on karma or culture or anything. Not at the early stages.

[SkywalkerAC]

Nets are a pretty good case study in favour of not-having-to-tank, no? They miffed numerous times but the the spend-strategy has paid off for them big time going into year 4 (of whatever it is).

[ATLTimekeeper]

Nets are a pretty good case study in favour of not-having-to-tank, no? They miffed numerous times but the the spend-strategy has paid off for them big time going into year 4 (of whatever it is).

They traded Derrick Favors for Deron Williams, which was the first block.

[dacrusha]

just remember what happens

and if what happens is the same thing that always happens? for like the past 18 years? please just remember

because we need more fans to figure this treadmilling scam out

Yup, 13 loto picks in 18 years and nothing to show for it.

Time to start winning games and stop playing for the lotto every year.

[nodeal]

just remember what happens

and if what happens is the same thing that always happens? for like the past 18 years? please just remember

because we need more fans to figure this treadmilling scam out

Yup, 13 loto picks in 18 years and nothing to show for it.

Time to start winning games and stop playing for the lotto every year.

18 years of trying to win with short sighted moves led us to the lottery. Our only hint of rebuild periods were during the dead time between our best players leaving and our GMs hunting for the next win now signing or trade.

For 18 yrs we did everything wrong. The true treadmill teams are constantly in 7-13. We are there quite a bit. I would love to treadmill the 2nd round, this team doesnt have the ceiling to treadmill the 2nd round though. let alone make it to the 2nd round just 1 time.

[Ditchweed]

What does Tim Leiweke have to say about this?

What he says counts, the rest is all just filler bull****.

[dTox]

just remember what happens

and if what happens is the same thing that always happens? for like the past 18 years? please just remember

because we need more fans to figure this treadmilling scam out

Yup, 13 loto picks in 18 years and nothing to show for it.

Time to start winning games and stop playing for the lotto every year.

Of those 13 years, I'd say 9-10 of them we were actually trying to swing for the playoffs with mediocre talent (just as we are now). And of those remaining 4-5 legit tank years, we ended up with Bosh/Carter/Jonas and one unsuccessful player in Bargnani, think of the bigger picture

[Rasho is god]

Great read from Raptors Republic on tanking
http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/07/ ... r-tanking/

here's a better read
http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2013/07/ ... r-tanking/