NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24

[eyeatoma]

So, I'm reluctant to jump into this thread because of the toxicity that's been here since last season that I see has roared back to life, but I feel compelled to point out two things, one general, and one specific to you eyeatoma.

The general:

Last year Embiid supporters here were yelling again and again that everyone in here had some mad Jokic bias...only for us to watch the playoffs play out and see Jokic drastically outplay Embiid and everyone else. When you add in all the crap that was going on outside of RealGM that amounted to racial bias against Jokic, I think the Embiid supporters need to show some humility and tolerance for others.

Can Jokic folks be biased? Sure, no group is immune to that.
But the reasonable takeaway from last year was surely not that the stuff Embiid supporters had directed at Jokic had an objective basis in reality. If you're coming back here now and not respecting Jokic, and not acknowledging that the Jokic folks - even if they are biased - had a point that Embiid folks were not acknowledging previously, I'd say a dose of humility is really required if further conversation is going to get anywhere.

The specific:

I literally remember you jumping off the Embiid bandwagon in a post last year after months and months of some of the most extreme stanning I've ever witnessed, and now it really feels like you're pretending that you didn't do this. Possibly you'd adroitly acknowledge your bandwagon abandonment from before, but the thing that sticks with me here is the tone you personally have used with people arguing against Embiid for the vast majority of posts I've seen from you on the subject both before you jumped off the bandwagon, and again right now.

This then to say:

Embiid had a case for MVP last year and may well have one this year...but you haven't helped the credibility of that case with your approach to the debate. You're the guy constantly yelling that everyone on the other side is the problem...but you are absolutely at the epicenter of the problem, and everyone around you can see this. You're not fooling anyone, except possibly yourself.

I'd advise you to chew on that and consider whether this is really how you want to be seen, and if you don't, change your approach to discussion.

As I've said numerous times in this thread this season, Jokic is the better player as of now than Embiid. Jokic's ability to turn it up a notch in the playoffs, and at the very least maintain his regular season numbers as opposed to Embiid was starkly different.

My issue on this thread, has always been the ridiculous stanning that goes on for him. It's one thing to say he's the best offensive player on the planet, it's another to say that you can't see the difference between his defense on Embiid, except for some highlight blocks. Embiid is consistently on the poll for DPOY on the DPOY thread. Why is that? Because he's a great defender. You'll never see Jokic on that thread. Case in point, right now, and every other season of their careers.

I spoke in a moment of great frustration, saying I'm done going so hard for someone. I needed some time. I'm more invested in this season because of Maxey, and what MOrey has done to give the team a chance to build a more competetent team around Embiid, and them having an actual coach. I'm cautious yet optimistic about the playoffs seeing that Horford has continued to age, Porzingis can't guard Embiid, and the Bucks looks like a .500 team. I also needed time to realize that there were a variety of factors that contributed to his poor playoff performances.

1. He's never had a good coach. He had Brett Brown, and Doc Rivers.
2. He's had injuries every post season except for 1. All of these injuries were ones he returned from early. If he had hurt himself in the regular season he would have been out for a longer time. https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/joel-embiid-injury-timeline-76ers-nba-playoffs/lfizbjavggdkl3dbq309jlei This article include all of them except for last seasons LCL injury.

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https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21710-lcl-tears

Grade 1: Knee injuries are mild. Your LCL is not completely torn. You should heal with only at-home treatment, including the use of crutches. Your healthcare provider might also have you wear a hinged knee brace when you’re allowed to put some weight on your knee. You’ll likely feel better after about three to four weeks.

Grade 2: Knee injuries are considered moderate. You have a partial tear in your LCL. For a grade 2 injury, you’ll need to use crutches and then a hinged knee brace. Recovery will take about eight to 12 weeks.

2a. You had people on this thread saying a sprained wrist, was worst than a broken face (orbital fracture). How do you want me to respond to that lol
2b. Apart from his injuries this is the stuff he has had to deal with in the regular season.

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Jokic had an incredibly normal career with the Nuggets when you compare the 30 for 30 greatest hits version the Sixers had. Yeah Jokic has lost a few players to injury and that put a cap on his playoff potential. Once they were healthy they won the Chip. He is a future top 10 player, who will likely win another 2-3 chips.

3. Embiid had Ben Simmons and James Harden, two great talents who would come up very small in the playoffs. With Simmons it was much of the same form the regular season, but he even loss his great defense, and playmaking ability in the last few games against the Hawks. With Harden it was numerous seasons of him coming up small in the last few games, making Embiid have to play 4 on 5. Especially given the fact that they also had PJ Tucker (who brought the defense and had one great game in game 7 against Boston, but by in large was a huge negative on offense).

3a. When considering this, it's not hard to imagine why his numbers take a drastic turns. He is playing 4 on 5, and teams hard double and triple him. When he makes the pass to Harden, he doesn't shoot, or he pounds the air out of the ball. Doc never made it easy on him like Nurse because no one would cut.

So to answer your question, I was incredibly frustrated with Embiid, but am also able to realize there are a number of other factors affecting his performance. I still think he has some problems in tight game situations, (doesn't do a great job reading doubles, and tightens up), but I'm not sure it's always on him. We saw him play extraordinarily well against the Raptors, and then hit the game winner on a ridiculous 3 pointer, so he is able to be clutch. Note, Harden had fouled out as well.

So yes it's basically that, if people on here can be respectful, and are willing to acknowledge that we have two incredible players, then it really shouldn't be a problem. There is a lot Embiid hating on this thread, where people just post what they know the lowest common denominators will like, just so they can farm and1s.

Have you ever seen people on here, other than Sixers fans here given credit to Embiid for great games? It's fairly rare. Most times when he has a great game the response is, lol 25 fts. Lol look at that efficiency. 50/17/7/8 blocks. What? Jokic had 15 assists, that's nothing. You can think I stan for Embiid all you want, the GB has an unhealthy disdain towards Embiid, he did himself no favors in the playoffs, he's still one of the top 5 players in the world, and is absolutely generational. He's an MVP runner up for 2 seasons, and the current MVP. People want respect for Jokic, he had no playoff success except for 1 conference finals appearance, yet they had no problem giving him his flowers. With Embiid he had numerous game 7s, many while he was injured, dealing with shrinking co-stars, and people trash him for it. No one is willing to see the nuances with this stuff, they just go 100% to nope, it's all on Embiid.

I try to be here to bring balance to the thread. I think when people come here just reading a post or two of what I'm saying, without see the context of the conversations I'm having in response to posters, it can seem different. Zoom out and see the whole picture and you can see what my true intent is.

I don´t think you got the main criticism from Doctor MJ. It is actually not about who is the better player or MVP.
It is the intellectual honesty that 95% of your posts is missing. You constantly get called out for this, but you don´t seem to take any of this serious or take any accountability. This would be no big deal if you would post once a month. But since you are flooding the MVP thread multiple times a day, it is hard to have a good debate in here, because you tend to stir the conversation in a way, that leads to posts like the one above.

We are frustrated with you. You seem engaged, passionate but also severly out of touch with handling people. Which is ok, people have different strengths. But like many others said before me, take a hard look at yourself and try to be a better poster in here.

Fair enough I can be excessive with my posts. Again though others can too and there is enough pot stirring on the other side. In fact there is full on gas lighting going on this thread. The majority of Sixers posters on the board refuse to post on here because they know that people like to direct hate to Embiid without appreciating nuances. I have nothing against Jokic. Funny guy, incredible player, best player in the league. What I don't get is why people have to belittle Embiid with the shots about injuries, passing and not Jokic level efficiency. He's basically one of the most efficient players in the league over the last 3 seasons. 2 time MVP runner up and 1 MVP, with a shot again this year. Embiid has his own strengths, he's not Jokic. Just like Jokic is not the same player as Embiid with his own unique strengths. As bisme said appreciate the players don't put them down. This season I have not put down Jokic. I said he not on Embiid's level on defense, that's a pretty universal truth just like Embiid is not on Jokic's level with passing. However on this thread all you see are posters ridiculing and putting down Embiid. That is what I have a problem with.

[Wolfgang630]

We might have to rename this topic lol

[ty 4191]

We might have to rename this topic lol

What would be an appropriate name, Wolf?

[eyeatoma]

there is literally nothing to support your claim that Embiid turns into "the best defender in the league" in the playoffs. nothing but ur stanism.

last season over the 7 game series with the Celtics, the Celtics dropped 114 on Embiid. yes, he blocked more shots (but also took less rebounds, comapred to the rs)

sure a 7 foot guy, who leads all centers in steals every year, leads the league in rebounding, has ATG touch and timing not to mention I.Q is "not a net negative"

I asked you a thousand times but i'll try again: how is it that both in the rs and in the playoffs, Denver's defense plummets when Jokic sits on the bench? I mean, he's an exploitable liability, right?

he's a big "net positive" on defense, that's why. he's def limited in some areas, and Embiid is miles better as a rim protector but that's it - Jokic is better in almost all other aspects of defense - live with it

if there's a gap between their defensive impacts (which i'm not even sure is the case, but those things are very hard to quantify objectively) then it's a small gap and the offensive gap is huge.

so if we're counting both sides of the ball (and we are) - it's still easiliy Jokic, nothing wrong with being 2nd best.

Lol it's more than blocking more shots... These are tweets from the last 2 to 3 playoffs Embiid has participated in.

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Lol it's more than blocking more shots...

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Ahhh yep this is more than stanism. Looks like you hit him with facts. I’ll tell you what stanism is. Stanism Is literally thinking Jokic is even close to as good of a defender as EMBIID is. Embiid trumps him on the defensive side of the ball.

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Huh where did his defense go when it actually mattered?

Complete traffic cone on defense and pick and roll victim.

Meanwhile....
The Heat shot 44% on shots inside 6 feet against Nikola Jokic in the finals.

Embiid is better on defense but he is even worse in pick and roll than Jokic. He is not an elite defender when it matters. Defensive gap is not as big as one would think and the offensive gap is huge.

Lol

[Floody23]

My issue on this thread, has always been the ridiculous stanning that goes on for him.

Oh the irony & blissful ignorance that you of all people are complaining about the “ridiculous stanning” of a player …

The majority of us are not “stanning” Jokic. We’re just appreciating greatness & someone who plays basketball the right way. The problem we have with Embiid is the constant foul baiting we’ve been accustomed to with him. You add the whinging he did about the MVP last year & surely you can understand why people on here have a problem with both you & Embiid.

[eyeatoma]

My issue on this thread, has always been the ridiculous stanning that goes on for him.

Oh the irony & blissful ignorance that you of all people are complaining about the “ridiculous stanning” of a player …

The majority of us are not “stanning” Jokic. We’re just appreciating greatness & someone who plays basketball the right way. The problem we have with Embiid is the constant foul baiting we’ve been accustomed to with him. You add the whinging he did about the MVP last year & surely you can understand why people on here have a problem with both you & Embiid.

If you truly think all there is to his game is baiting fouls, then I'm not sure what to tell you. These are hyperbolic statements that grossly minimize his huge offensive impact.

Also, nice job completing ignoring everything else I said, not addressing anything at all and just repeating what everyone else has said. Appreciate Embiid too, he's great at basketball as well. If Jokic wasn't around we would be talking about a 3 time MVP. Yet, instead you like to talk about him as a foul baiter. Just lol.

[Floody23]

My issue on this thread, has always been the ridiculous stanning that goes on for him.

Oh the irony & blissful ignorance that you of all people are complaining about the “ridiculous stanning” of a player …

The majority of us are not “stanning” Jokic. We’re just appreciating greatness & someone who plays basketball the right way. The problem we have with Embiid is the constant foul baiting we’ve been accustomed to with him. You add the whinging he did about the MVP last year & surely you can understand why people on here have a problem with both you & Embiid.

If you truly think all there is to his game is baiting fouls, then I'm not sure what to tell you. These are hyperbolic statements that grossly minimize his huge offensive impact.

Also, nice job completing ignoring everything else I said, not addressing anything at all and just repeating what everyone else has said. Appreciate Embiid too, he's great at basketball as well. If Jokic wasn't around we would be talking about a 3 time MVP. Yet, instead you like to talk about him as a foul baiter. Just lol.

I’ll appreciate him when he actually shows up in the playoffs. His drop in production come the playoffs is laughably bad.

[eyeatoma]

Oh the irony & blissful ignorance that you of all people are complaining about the “ridiculous stanning” of a player …

The majority of us are not “stanning” Jokic. We’re just appreciating greatness & someone who plays basketball the right way. The problem we have with Embiid is the constant foul baiting we’ve been accustomed to with him. You add the whinging he did about the MVP last year & surely you can understand why people on here have a problem with both you & Embiid.

If you truly think all there is to his game is baiting fouls, then I'm not sure what to tell you. These are hyperbolic statements that grossly minimize his huge offensive impact.

Also, nice job completing ignoring everything else I said, not addressing anything at all and just repeating what everyone else has said. Appreciate Embiid too, he's great at basketball as well. If Jokic wasn't around we would be talking about a 3 time MVP. Yet, instead you like to talk about him as a foul baiter. Just lol.

I’ll appreciate him when he actually shows up in the playoffs. His drop in production come the playoffs is laughably bad.

Regular season award ...

Also, you don't seem to understand nuances. Embiid has a lot going against him in the playoffs, if you think you can just pin it all on him, then you've clearly got an agenda. He definitely has areas he needs to improve him, but I'd say his playoff drop off is about 40% on him, and the rest is on all the other factors that have been mentioned by me in the last two pages.

[Floody23]

If you truly think all there is to his game is baiting fouls, then I'm not sure what to tell you. These are hyperbolic statements that grossly minimize his huge offensive impact.

Also, nice job completing ignoring everything else I said, not addressing anything at all and just repeating what everyone else has said. Appreciate Embiid too, he's great at basketball as well. If Jokic wasn't around we would be talking about a 3 time MVP. Yet, instead you like to talk about him as a foul baiter. Just lol.

I’ll appreciate him when he actually shows up in the playoffs. His drop in production come the playoffs is laughably bad.

Regular season award ...

Also, you don't seem to understand nuances. Embiid has a lot going against him in the playoffs, if you think you can just pin it all on him, then you've clearly got an agenda. He definitely has areas he needs to improve him, but I'd say his playoff drop off is about 40% on him, and the rest is on all the other factors that have been mentioned by me in the last two pages.

[eyeatoma]

I’ll appreciate him when he actually shows up in the playoffs. His drop in production come the playoffs is laughably bad.

Regular season award ...

Also, you don't seem to understand nuances. Embiid has a lot going against him in the playoffs, if you think you can just pin it all on him, then you've clearly got an agenda. He definitely has areas he needs to improve him, but I'd say his playoff drop off is about 40% on him, and the rest is on all the other factors that have been mentioned by me in the last two pages.

I rest my case, thanks for proving my point.

[Floody23]

Regular season award ...

Also, you don't seem to understand nuances. Embiid has a lot going against him in the playoffs, if you think you can just pin it all on him, then you've clearly got an agenda. He definitely has areas he needs to improve him, but I'd say his playoff drop off is about 40% on him, and the rest is on all the other factors that have been mentioned by me in the last two pages.

I rest my case, thanks for proving my point.

What point ? You just made a list of excuses lol

[Infinite Llamas]

Haliburton 15 assists and no turnovers.

Top 5 in MVP

[eyeatoma]

I rest my case, thanks for proving my point.

What point ? You just made a list of excuses lol

You mean facts, that you choose to ignore?

[Floody23]

Haliburton 15 assists and no turnovers.

Top 5 in MVP

Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, Luka, Hali.

[Floody23]

I rest my case, thanks for proving my point.

What point ? You just made a list of excuses lol

You mean facts, that you choose to ignore?

The fact his production drops dramatically in the playoffs ?

[Sharkboy242]

Embiid with 37 points on 11 made shots

make it make sense

[HotRocks34]

Bad night for Luka

[baksuzz]

Embiid with 37 points on 11 made shots

make it make sense

he shot 50 FT last 3 games

he shot below 50% fg in every game

has the same fg% as a center as his PG teammate

[Chandan]

lol good thing jokic made that. aaron gordon passed that out while totally alone under the basket.

[antonac]

Just FTR, here's me in May, predicting that even after the widespread criticism Embiid got after the POs, we'd be back with the same old arguments once the season started.

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