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[Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50

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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#841 » by god shammgod » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:52 pm

cgmw wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:
2. I'm sorry, but I don't see how Carmelo signing an extension qualifies as "panicking." Was it panic that made the rest of his draft class opt for 3 year deals to become FA's in 2010? No. It was smart. Signing an extension is undoubtedly the "smart" choice for Carmelo. Anything else is a risk.


he's not risking all his money. if what you say happens he's risking maybe somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 percent of it. do you not think winning is any motivation to top athletes ? will he be poor with his contract under the new cba ? the extension is not for the life of his career either. it's only 3 years.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#842 » by K_ick_God » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:54 pm

cgmw wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:
1. This is collective bargaining. There is no protection for signed contracts -- in collective bargaining, the union gets to collectively negotiate for better terms and in exchange, the employer gets to put everything on the table, even past signed contracts. Sure it's harder to take away benefits that are in place -- from a negotiating point of view -- but there is no legal protection. No arbitration, etc. That is all incorrect WADR.

2. It has nothing to do with compensation. That's my point: Panicking and signing the extension won't have any impact on compensation in the end.


1. Of course the owners theoretically can do it. But they need the union to agree to it. Why not just get the players to play for free while they're at it? Because they can't. Rolling back existing contracts will be the last thing the Union would give up. Why? Because it's one of the most basic, secure principles of justice we have in this country. You negotiated for something. You get it. Reneging on a previous agreement is not something that the Union will or should give up lightly. If the owners insisted on it, the Union would very likely sue and claim breach of contract. (Again, I'm not a labor lawyer. Far from it. But if somebody told me I couldn't come to work unless I agreed to lower my compensation from an existing contract, I'd sue the sh*t out of them).

2. I'm sorry, but I don't see how Carmelo signing an extension qualifies as "panicking." Was it panic that made the rest of his draft class opt for 3 year deals to become FA's in 2010? No. It was smart. Signing an extension is undoubtedly the "smart" choice for Carmelo. Anything else is a risk.



1. The court would ask if you were a member of the union. When you said yes, they'd throw your suit out without even hearing it. You sign up for the union, you sign up for the upside of collective bargaining and the downside that goes with it too.

2. So if you're Melo and you sign with the Nyets in February, then find out that you could have had the exact same money to sign with the Knicks if you had waited till summer ... you'd be perfectly happy with that deal and with the advice you got that put you at the Pru Center for one year and on the fringes of the playoff chase for about five years?

I mean, to me, panicking is doing something prematurely that, in the end, proves to get you a worse result than you would have had if you had not acted prematurely. I don't know what your definition of panicking is but that would fit well within my definition.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#843 » by truth serum » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:55 pm

Now the wiretap says the Nuggets are warming up to the idea of trading Melo to the Knicks based on their interest in Anthony Randolph lol. None of this stuff adds up. People who were freaking out about Melo's quotes and executives predicting the Nets will re-enter the "race" need not fret. There's a lot of talk being thrown around right now and always has been. I really hate having to read any of it. None of it is trustworthy. Let's hope the latest update has some truth to it though. If Anthony Randolph winds up being the centerpiece of a Melo trade, I'll send Donnie a Vermont Teddy Bear for Valentine's Day.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#844 » by AllanHoustonFan » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:58 pm

truth serum wrote:Now the wiretap says the Nuggets are warming up to the idea of trading Melo to the Knicks based on their interest in Anthony Randolph lol. None of this stuff adds up. People who were freaking out about Melo's quotes and executives predicting the Nets will re-enter the "race" need not fret. There's a lot of talk being thrown around right now and always has been. I really hate having to read any of it. None of it is trustworthy. Let's hope the latest update has some truth to it though. If Anthony Randolph winds up being the centerpiece of a Melo trade, I'll send Donnie a Vermont Teddy Bear for Valentine's Day.


Haha funny how these things work, huh. I say he either will be traded to us by the deadline or they are gonna keep him to make one last run for the title.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#845 » by cgmw » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:59 pm

^
Any advice he gets is mere speculation. That's the point.

To me, panicking is making an obviously incorrect decision out of uncontrollable fear. There is not an obviously wrong choice here. There is only a definite and an indefinite. A sure thing and an unknown.

At this point, Carmelo has had enough time to weigh the pros and cons. If he isn't afraid to deal with the unknown risks of a new CBA, then good for him. I would be, and I'm not ashamed to say it. Frankly, every other player in the league who had an opportunity to avoid this problem did. They don't seem to ashamed of their decision either.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#846 » by truth serum » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:01 pm

AllanHoustonFan wrote:
truth serum wrote:Now the wiretap says the Nuggets are warming up to the idea of trading Melo to the Knicks based on their interest in Anthony Randolph lol. None of this stuff adds up. People who were freaking out about Melo's quotes and executives predicting the Nets will re-enter the "race" need not fret. There's a lot of talk being thrown around right now and always has been. I really hate having to read any of it. None of it is trustworthy. Let's hope the latest update has some truth to it though. If Anthony Randolph winds up being the centerpiece of a Melo trade, I'll send Donnie a Vermont Teddy Bear for Valentine's Day.


Haha funny how these things work, huh. I say he either will be traded to us by the deadline or they are gonna keep him to make one last run for the title.


Yep....just can't see him being dealt and extended anywhere else...at least by the trade deadline. Not after all of this drama he's caused. For him to force it all the way to the deadline and then extend with someone like the Nets or remain with the Nuggets would be some of the silliest sh*t of all time. He will become the Melo that punched Mardy Collins all over again in my eyes.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#847 » by stuporman » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:01 pm

The reason the NHL were able to get rollbacks in salaries was because there was a very real threat of the league disappearing unless player salaries went down. The NBA is in no such financial threat as that.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#848 » by shtolky » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:02 pm

Didn't see this posted yet, if so, my bad. Nothing new, title is "Denver OK Dealing with Knicks."

Nothing us knowledgeable fans didn't see coming. Talks about Nugs renewed interest in Randolph as possible part of a deal. Personally can't see this ending anyway but him coming to us as it benefits everyone involved. Nuggets need to get something in return and Melo wants to come here.


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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#849 » by K_ick_God » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:07 pm

cgmw wrote:^
Any advice he gets is mere speculation. That's the point.

To me, panicking is making an obviously incorrect decision out of uncontrollable fear. There is not an obviously wrong choice here. There is only a definite and an indefinite. A sure thing and an unknown.

At this point, Carmelo has had enough time to weigh the pros and cons. If he isn't afraid to deal with the unknown risks of a new CBA, then good for him. I would be, and I'm not ashamed to say it. Frankly, every other player in the league who had an opportunity to avoid this problem did. They don't seem to ashamed of their decision either.




Well, panicking does not happen when someone knows for sure they're making a bad decision. It's only when in hindsight you see that you had poor judgment and acted prematurely. This would be just such a situation. I mean arguably, Walsh panicked when he traded away picks to dump Jeffries. It wasn't OBVIOUS at the time that he made a bad decision (and it hasn't turned out that badly for the Knicks and probably won't) but in hindsight, the decision looks a little panicky.

Similar to Melo's situation. If he signs the extension, he'll be "overpaying" to get that extension. In this case, the overpaying will be in the form of accepting a decision to play somewhere he really doesn't want to play (New Jersey). That's panic ... to me.

Listen, you may be right that he will sign the extension no matter what. I don't deny that. He said "Screwed." He is clearly not well informed. It will prove to be a bad decision unless that extension is with the Bulls or Knicks, because he'll end up regretting it.

This is vindictive of me -- but it's partially because I don't care that much whether we get Melo or not anymore, I think the Knicks have bigger needs -- but it would be fun for me if he ends up in NJ or Houston and then when the new CBA rolls around, Leon Rose looks terrible when it becomes obvious for all to see that Melo could have had the same dollars in New York. It will happen. I believe it's almost guaranteed that Melo will be subject to partial or full Grandfathering *OR* there will be a partial or full rollback of contracts.

I've said this before but I believe the absolute greatest difference in salary between Melo and, say, Gay would be small under a new CBA ... about $500,000 to $1,000,000 per year at most and I think $1M would be pretty unlikely because it creates a $5M gap over 5 years that is pretty unjustifiable. They could justify about $500K as close enough. But if I'm betting, I say they will allow Melo to make 105% of his previous salary. This is the same Grandfathering, I believe, they gave Michael Jordan. We'll see if I'm right.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#850 » by Red Vines » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:08 pm

A couple things: 1) I think Denver "warming up" to us is supposed to get NJ panicked and back in negotiations; 2) Denver has lost almost all leverage with us now, they waited too long--we're not poised to win a title this year so we're not going to make a deal in Feb. when we can get Melo in summer for much less.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#851 » by cgmw » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:13 pm

You assume a lot about what Melo wants. What I don't understand is if he wants out of Denver so bad, why didn't he get an opt-out last year like LBJ, Wade & Bosh?

I don't know what Melo wants, but I do know that any sane person would make securing a maximum contract a pretty high priority. Personally, I don't see the Nets as coming into this conversation at all.

If I had to wager, I'd say Denver 50%, Knicks 35%, Elsewhere 15%.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#852 » by alphad0gz » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:14 pm

Lol..."I'm a lawyer..blah, blah, blah". That's sort of like saying "I'm an engineer". What kind of Engineer? What kind of lawyer? Obviously, you are not a contract attorney and have little idea how unions do their business. The negotiations will determine whether or not existing contracts get rolled back, not the fact that they have been signed under the previous CBA. Union salaries get restructured all the time. It come down to what is agreed upon by negotiations between "rank and file" and management.

I suspect that existing salaries may stay but that new salaries will be "feathered down" gradually to take full effect in by something like year 3 or 4. That gives both sides some room to plan without being brutal to either.

Guys like Melo may lose something, but not drastically. In years 3 and 4, the guys would take a bigger hit.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#853 » by nykfan70 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:16 pm

Source: Nets Will Continue After Carmelo

Posted: 1/26/2011 5:34:00 AM
Source: Adrian Wonjarowski of Yahoo! Sports

one NBA executive close to the Denver and New Jersey front offices insisted on Tuesday: “I’ve seen better acting in soap operas than [Mikhail] Prokhorov’s performance. The Nets will be back in this thing, but they’ll be back in on their terms – not Denver’s.”

Maybe so, but the Nets won’t have leverage until the Nuggets’ front office re-engages them. The Nuggets started a five-game road trip East that’ll include a stop in Newark on Monday. “If anything, there’s no distractions there,” Anthony said. “They took the deal off the table.”


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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#854 » by Starksfor3 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:16 pm

Most I'd offer in a deal:

Chandler (or Chandler traded somewhere else where he would re-sign and Denver would get a first round pick/another young cheap player they covet)
Randolph
Curry
Bukie
Mason Jr.
any picks we can muster

and we'd get back

Melo
Harrington


Lineup:

Felton/Douglas
Fields/Rautins
Melo/Gallo
Amar'e/Harrington
Turiaf/Mozgov
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#855 » by Pharmcat » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:18 pm

i wonder if melo regrets not taking the shorter max deal in his previous deal like the others in the 2003 class did
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#856 » by Context » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:19 pm

According to a source, the Players Association hopes Anthony does not make his decision based on a doomsday scenario NBA commissioner David Stern and his agents are promoting. The union hopes Anthony goes about his business as normal, knowing NBPA executive director Billy Hunter will not agree to an unfavorable CBA deal for its superstars.

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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#857 » by Jmonty580 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:20 pm

god shammgod wrote:
cgmw wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:
2. I'm sorry, but I don't see how Carmelo signing an extension qualifies as "panicking." Was it panic that made the rest of his draft class opt for 3 year deals to become FA's in 2010? No. It was smart. Signing an extension is undoubtedly the "smart" choice for Carmelo. Anything else is a risk.


he's not risking all his money. if what you say happens he's risking maybe somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 percent of it. do you not think winning is any motivation to top athletes ? will he be poor with his contract under the new cba ? the extension is not for the life of his career either. it's only 3 years.



Its funny actually. This is what was overlooked during the whole Miami thing, and now once again its being overlooked.

I'll continue to say that Carmelo didnt put himself in such a situation because he is uncertain and he just wants to leave his options open. Believe that if you want to, but if you do your extremely gullable. Melo wants out of Denver thats pretty much a fact. Its strongly believed he wants to go to NY, but more so than going to Ny I think Melo wants to be in a situation where he can eventually compete for a championship and not get shut out for the duration of the Miami big 3 exsistence. If I were Melo or Paul or a number of other elite players I'd be pissed off at the thought of being on the outside looking in for the prime years of my career beucase those three teamed up to win championships. You think these guys are going to just say good for them, and keep playing to the best of their abilities only to be denied because their best isnt enough to match 3 top level players? These stars want in on the oppurtunity and Melo is no exception. Does that mean he is coming to the Knicks for less money? Very well mean that, especially since the guy already has a ton of money, he's not going poor any time soon. If he remains healthy (and Amare too) its realistic to think he reups with the Knicks after his extension is up and gets another big pay day, especially if we manage to win a championship in that time period. If not and he doesnt believe in our abilities, look for him to reshuffle and go somewhere else or us to work on getting someone else here to help him win. But more so than the money he wants to be able to compete, people can talk about him risking losing some millions over the course of his extension, I think melo would pay millions out of his own pocket to be on a championship calibur team.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#858 » by BasicBall » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:20 pm

Pharmcat wrote:i wonder if melo regrets not taking the shorter max deal in his previous deal like the others in the 2003 class did


I bet he does...I bet he does :D
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#859 » by cgmw » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:20 pm

KnicksGod wrote:1. The court would ask if you were a member of the union. When you said yes, they'd throw your suit out without even hearing it. You sign up for the union, you sign up for the upside of collective bargaining and the downside that goes with it too.

Come on, dude.

If the union agrees to rolling back existing contracts, then players have no remedy except maybe suing the union. I know that.

What I'm saying is that the union would never agree to it. If the owners continued a lockout and insisted on cutting existing salaries, I could see the union trying to sue the league. The theory being that the owners are reneging on existing employment contracts.
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Re: [Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50 

Post#860 » by KnickScoop » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:22 pm

so cgmw what happens if a hard cap is implemented and lakers have a 95M$ payroll... with your theories what happens to them?

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