NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24

[AleksandarN]

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Crickets....

What do you expect to be said about this?

Keep the criticism consistent. Ya'll hate on Embiid when he has a game like this, I never see it with Jokic. Embiid has done this stuff in wins too. Maybe not the 9 assits, but everything else. HIs assists have been up this year as well.

Look you gonna be critical of one player, you gotta be doing the same with the other. Neither is beyond reproach.

Tell me you didn’t watch the game without telling me you didn't watched the game. He did not fall down or flop for one call this game not one. As a matter of fact he should have gotten more fouls called. Terrible officiating game. How is this similar to Embiid’s game other than Jokic finally going to the line.(even though he was getting hacked and fouled a lot all game).

[-Luke-]

Reading this thread is like the movie Groundhog Day.

[GeorgeSears]

last night showed why Luka's going to have uphill battle to win MVP.

Jokic and Embiid both had "off nights" by their standards, whether it was shooting or turnovers, and still managed to put up huge numbers.

Luka's off night, on the other hand, was a catastrophe. -26, 16 points, 8 turnovers, 2 rebounds, 2 assists a 20 point loss. You just don't see nights like from Jokic or Embiid.

[Johnny Firpo]

last night showed why Luka's going to have uphill battle to win MVP.

Jokic and Embiid both had "off nights" by their standards, whether it was shooting or turnovers, and still managed to put up huge numbers.

Luka's off night, on the other hand, was a catastrophe. -26, 16 points, 8 turnovers, 2 rebounds, 2 assists a 20 point loss. You just don't see nights like from Jokic or Embiid.

To be frank, you don't really see these types of games from Luka either. He is not as consistent as Jokic (nobody is), but this was likely his worst game he played for the Mavs, so far.

[Special_Puppy]

last night showed why Luka's going to have uphill battle to win MVP.

Jokic and Embiid both had "off nights" by their standards, whether it was shooting or turnovers, and still managed to put up huge numbers.

Luka's off night, on the other hand, was a catastrophe. -26, 16 points, 8 turnovers, 2 rebounds, 2 assists a 20 point loss. You just don't see nights like from Jokic or Embiid.

To be frank, you don't really see these types of games from Luka either. He is not as consistent as Jokic (nobody is), but this was likely his worst game he played for the Mavs, so far.

Jokic (https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401469144) and Embiid(https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401545117) have had their fair share of catastrophic performances too

[Whiffyemperor]

Kd is the mvp so far in my opinion

[CobraCommander]

last night showed why Luka's going to have uphill battle to win MVP.

Jokic and Embiid both had "off nights" by their standards, whether it was shooting or turnovers, and still managed to put up huge numbers.

Luka's off night, on the other hand, was a catastrophe. -26, 16 points, 8 turnovers, 2 rebounds, 2 assists a 20 point loss. You just don't see nights like from Jokic or Embiid.

Jokics off night came in a win over the sliding clippers and Luka’s L came to the hands of the sliding Pels. Jokic is significantly better than Luka- but Luka isn’t disqualified because of one game

[Floody23]

Spoiler:

Kd is the mvp so far in my opinion

Yes the guy leading his team to a 4-6 record so far is the MVP of the league …

Banned becuase PBP.

[Special_Puppy]

Kd is the mvp so far in my opinion

Bait used to be believable

[ty 4191]

Jokic (https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401469144) and Embiid(https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401545117) have had their fair share of catastrophic performances too

Jokic doesn't have "his fair share" of catastrophic games. He's the most consistently outstanding player of the past 40 years, alongside Michael Jordan himself.

Here's proof:

Including the playoffs, last 4 seasons:

Jokic basically NEVER has a bad game. Game Score of 10 is league average, 20 is great, 30 is outstanding, 40 is ATG.

https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/game-score

Last 4 seasons, including playoffs:

1. Jokic: 82 games Game Score 30+, 3 games with a Game Score 10 or less!! 27:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

2. Embiid: 62 games Game Score 30+, 13 games 10 or less. 4.8:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

3. Doncic: 55 games Game Score 30+, 16 games 10 or less. 3.4:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

4. Giannis: 59 games Game Score 30+, 11 games 10 or less. 5.4:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

Not exactly a small sample size, 4 seasons including playoffs.

Jokic is one of the greatest few players of the past 45 years, and, one of the top few most skilled and valuable, also.

Comparing this to other peak 4 season spans of superstars of the past (Game Score calculable and sortable back to 1983-1984):

1. LeBron James (2007-2008 through 2010-2011): 79 games Game Score 30+, 11 games 10 or less. 7.2:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

2. Michael Jordan (87'-88' through 90'-91'): 152 games Game Score 30+, 5 games 10 or less. 30.4 ratio.

3. Larry Bird (84'-85' through 87'-88'): 63 games Game Score 30+, 10 games 10 or less. 6.3:1 ratio.

4. Magic Johnson (86'-87' through 89'-90'): 62 games 30+, 17 games 10 or less. 3.6:1 ratio.

5. Shaquille O'Neal (98'-99 through 01'-02'): 55 games 30+, 10 games 10 or less. 5.5:1 ratio.

[Wolfgang630]

Kd is the mvp so far in my opinion

I’m gonna need you to try harder

[CobraCommander]

Jokic (https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401469144) and Embiid(https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401545117) have had their fair share of catastrophic performances too

Jokic doesn't have "his fair share" of catastrophic games. He's the most consistently outstanding player of the past 40 years, alongside Michael Jordan himself.

Here's proof:

Including the playoffs, last 4 seasons:

Jokic basically NEVER has a bad game. Game Score of 10 is league average, 20 is great, 30 is outstanding, 40 is ATG.

https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/game-score

Last 4 seasons, including playoffs:

1. Jokic: 82 games Game Score 30+, 3 games with a Game Score 10 or less!! 27:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

2. Embiid: 62 games Game Score 30+, 13 games 10 or less. 4.8:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

3. Doncic: 55 games Game Score 30+, 16 games 10 or less. 3.4:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

4. Giannis: 59 games Game Score 30+, 11 games 10 or less. 5.4:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

Not exactly a small sample size, 4 seasons including playoffs.

Jokic is one of the greatest few players of the past 45 years, and, one of the top few most skilled and valuable, also.

Comparing this to other peak 4 season spans of superstars of the past (Game Score calculable and sortable back to 1983-1984):

1. LeBron James (2007-2008 through 2010-2011): 79 games Game Score 30+, 11 games 10 or less. 7.2:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

2. Michael Jordan (87'-88' through 90'-91'): 152 games Game Score 30+, 5 games 10 or less. 30.4 ratio.

3. Larry Bird (84'-85' through 87'-88'): 63 games Game Score 30+, 10 games 10 or less. 6.3:1 ratio.

4. Magic Johnson (86'-87' through 89'-90'): 62 games 30+, 17 games 10 or less. 3.6:1 ratio.

5. Shaquille O'Neal (98'-99 through 01'-02'): 55 games 30+, 10 games 10 or less. 5.5:1 ratio.

So are you implying Jokic is a all time great doing all time great things?


I’m looking at your post thinking you are implying that Jokic is an all time great - like a few rings from top 10...maybe already top 20....no one other than Lebron and Curry are top 20 right now IMO....but Jokic is trending (with 2 more rings) into the top 10-5 range...

[ty 4191]

So are you implying Jokic is a all time great doing all time great things?

Absolutely.

I started a thread last week about Jokic's current all time ranking, here, and about 30% of people already put him top 10 all time, and 70% put in inside the top 20....

[ty 4191]

I’m looking at your post thinking you are implying that Jokic is an all time great - like a few rings from top 10...maybe already top 20....no one other than Lebron and Curry are top 20 right now IMO....but Jokic is trending (with 2 more rings) into the top 10-5 range...

I don't use rings as my barometer of greatness and value. Here's why:

Simple. Win more championships. What’s with these nerdy questions.

Ah yes, the (dreaded) "rings" argument again?

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a tremendous team around him:

-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's career line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's career line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs those 4 years.

Kevin Garnett through age 27, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 17-30
-Team Series Record: 2-8
-7 first round exits
-1 WCF

Garnett's career line: 23.3/13.4/5.0. 2nd in Defensive Rating in the playoffs, those years, among players with 2000 MP. RAPM ranks him as the second most impactful player of 2002-2007 period, overall, in the NBA.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible.

Still:

Wilt's career line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics.

Oscar Robertson through age 31, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (39 games)
-Team Record: 15-24
-Team Series Record: 2-6
-4 first round exits
-2 EDF

Oscar's career playoff line: 29.7/9.3/9.4 on an astounding +8.2 rTS%. Clearly, a top 2-3 player overall in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics. He had 8 triple doubles in those 39 games, and that's when the assist rule precluded assists if the player receiving the ball dribbled before he took the shot. Much harder to get assists back then vs. today.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a tremendous team around him, while also bringing in arguably the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1966?

What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, “Ring count” is not about how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

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[bisme37]

I'm updating the poll a bit by removing Booker and adding Anthony Edwards. So get your new votes in!

Here's how the poll results looked before the change (including my vote for Tatum when the poll first went up haha):



Also it would really cool if you guys would stop bickering so dang much. It's only been 10 games and being an NBA fan is supposed to be fun.

[iggymcfrack]

I'm updating the poll a bit by removing Booker and adding Anthony Edwards. So get your new votes in!

Here's how the poll results looked before the change (including my vote for Tatum when the poll first went up haha):



Also it would really cool if you guys would stop bickering so dang much. It's only been 10 games and being an NBA fan is supposed to be fun.

Not that it really matters because Jokic is so dominant, but Haliburton >>> Edwards if you’re looking for a 10th guy with a case. 29.6 PER on .677 TS%, 306 WS/48, and 10.6 BPM while leading the best offense in the league. Edwards has a 21.0 PER on .586 TS%, .165 WS/48, and 4.4 BPM.

Agreed on the bickering too, but it kinda feels like it’s least being well confined to this thread and not bleeding over into the rest of the forum much.

[bisme37]

I'm updating the poll a bit by removing Booker and adding Anthony Edwards. So get your new votes in!

Here's how the poll results looked before the change (including my vote for Tatum when the poll first went up haha):

Spoiler:

Also it would really cool if you guys would stop bickering so dang much. It's only been 10 games and being an NBA fan is supposed to be fun.

Not that it really matters because Jokic is so dominant, but Haliburton >>> Edwards if you’re looking for a 10th guy with a case. 29.6 PER on .677 TS%, 306 WS/48, and 10.6 BPM while leading the best offense in the league. Edwards has a 21.0 PER on .586 TS%, .165 WS/48, and 4.4 BPM.

Agreed on the bickering too, but it kinda feels like it’s least being well confined to this thread and not bleeding over into the rest of the forum much.

I based the poll on current aggregate betting odds. Hali is playing great but he's only got the 14th best odds right now so he didn't make the cut this time.

https://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/mvp/

[THE J0KER]

Spoiler:

I’m looking at your post thinking you are implying that Jokic is an all time great - like a few rings from top 10...maybe already top 20....no one other than Lebron and Curry are top 20 right now IMO....but Jokic is trending (with 2 more rings) into the top 10-5 range...

I don't use rings as my barometer of greatness and value. Here's why:

Simple. Win more championships. What’s with these nerdy questions.

Ah yes, the (dreaded) "rings" argument again?

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a tremendous team around him:

-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's career line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's career line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs those 4 years.

Kevin Garnett through age 27, Playoffs:
-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 17-30
-Team Series Record: 2-8
-7 first round exits
-1 WCF

Garnett's career line: 23.3/13.4/5.0. 2nd in Defensive Rating in the playoffs, those years, among players with 2000 MP. RAPM ranks him as the second most impactful player of 2002-2007 period, overall, in the NBA.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible.

Still:

Wilt's career line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics.

Oscar Robertson through age 31, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (39 games)
-Team Record: 15-24
-Team Series Record: 2-6
-4 first round exits
-2 EDF

Oscar's career playoff line: 29.7/9.3/9.4 on an astounding +8.2 rTS%. Clearly, a top 2-3 player overall in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional box score metrics. He had 8 triple doubles in those 39 games, and that's when the assist rule precluded assists if the player receiving the ball dribbled before he took the shot. Much harder to get assists back then vs. today.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a tremendous team around him, while also bringing in arguably the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1966?

What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, “Ring count” is not about how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

Read on Twitter

Great arguments, but to be fair Jamal Murray is an all-star-level player while Aaron Gordon (his "working horse" Nuggets version, not Magic ones) belongs to at least an all-defense 2nd team (the KCP case is similar but he played just one season with Jokic so far). Also, to be fair before 1988 when the league format was under 25 teams it was way bigger probability to have all-star accomplished teammates than after the 1988 enlargement, which partly explains Bird and Magic cases (though they arguably are part of the "dynasty" level teams).

[RB34]

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Crickets....

What do you expect to be said about this?

Keep the criticism consistent. Ya'll hate on Embiid when he has a game like this, I never see it with Jokic. Embiid has done this stuff in wins too. Maybe not the 9 assits, but everything else. HIs assists have been up this year as well.

Look you gonna be critical of one player, you gotta be doing the same with the other. Neither is beyond reproach.

I understand it should be a two way street as far as criticism goes, I’m with you. Seems to be a bit of an outlier game for Jokic. The first game he has shot under 45%, Embiid has multiple. The first time he has shot over 10 FTs, Embiid averages 11. 7th time Joker has recorded 9+ assists, Embiid’s season high is 8. Embiid averages 3 more points and is a better defender apparently.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

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Crickets....

If Embiid went 8/23 with 14 fts he would be roasted forever.

Lmao. This isn’t a common occurrence for him. Also, he had 9 assists.

Embiid scored 39 with 17 FTs and lost.

Jokic is better than him even on bad nights for his standards.

Worst FG% for Jokic in a game since 10/28/2022 and he still puts up 32/16/9 with two super clutch free throws to ice the game (14 for 14 from the line).

Also...

Jokic is the most consistent player in decades. And here's proof:

Including the playoffs, last 4 seasons:

Jokic basically NEVER has a bad game. Game Score of 10 is league average, 20 is great, 30 is outstanding, 40 is ATG.

https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/game-score

Last 4 seasons, including playoffs:

1. Jokic: 82 games Game Score 30+, 3 games with a Game Score 10 or less!! 27:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

2. Embiid: 62 games Game Score 30+, 13 games 10 or less. 4.8:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

3. Doncic: 55 games Game Score 30+, 16 games 10 or less. 3.4:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games.

4. Giannis: [b]59 games Game Score 30+, 11 games 10 or less. 5.4:1 ratio of outstanding games to bad games. [/b]

Not exactly a small sample size, 4 seasons including playoffs.

Jokic is one of the greatest few players of the past 45 years, and, one of the top few most skilled and valuable, also.

Can you show me how to run it? Giannis had like 5 games in the past 4 years where he got injured either in the early first or early second. There was also a couple games he had a blow-out with low minutes. Like I don't consider it a bad game if he played 1 minute.