2023 Draft Discussion Part 5

[LBJKB24MJ23]

so who are the sleepers in this draft. guys who will probably get picked if the Raptors come to their picks :

- #3 (if Raptors trade Siakam, say if Miller or Scoot isn't what Masai thinks they will be, will there be a surprise pick?)
- #13

will the Raptors be given an opportunity to work out/interview any of the top 10 supposed nba draft picks or will they be snubbed?

The obvious "surprise" pick at 3 would be Amen Thompson (something I actually said earlier this thread bc ofc they love to shock everyone lol) and at 13, it's not just because I like him a lot but I genuinely can see them draft Cissiko who I still find baffling that very few people talk about as a lottery level prospect and he completely fits both the physical profile and skillsets they usually value. I would throw in GG Jackson just because he fits the criteria as a shocking pick lol which again seems to the franchise's calling card at the draft. He fits the physical profile (not so much the defensive one). The other one that makes me sick to my stomach thinking is JHS, so good chance he's the pick lol smh

imagine if you drafted Amen Thompson but got Ausar Thompson instead (they switched identities on draft night because both twins wanted their other team )

[ArthurVandelay]

Back issues are a stay away, especially for guards.

It could be he has never had a proper training or trainers, i.e. proper warm ups, cool downs combined. Could just have tight muscles from years of going all out without proper care and training. Muscles could be tight from this, then Kentucky gets him in the weight room doing Olympic lifts for the first time and his back really tightens up.

I really have no clue. This is a long way of saying if there is nothing structurally wrong with Wallace's back, I would select him and not think twice. Get him doing some yoga as part of his training with proper warm ups/cool downs and he should be good to go after a few months.

I think the reporting is that he's put in a brace whenever he hits the bench. It doesn't sound like negligence on UK's part. But there's always noise this time a year around injury flags. There's this other rumour that the Spurs are looking for another first round pick to draft a point guard, and he's the only other one slated (unless they're looking at Sasser). Wouldn't shock me if the Spurs are trying to kill his draft stock here by playing up his back health.

Putting him a brace could likely be to help immobilize him so he doesn't aggravate the muscles.

But if there is something wrong structurally, then that would be a major red flag for sure.

[PhilBlackson]

FML!!

I just scrolled through my gram, not sure how legit the source is for the "globalscouting" BUT....the page says that "multiple scouts & agents believe that THE THUNDER HAVE THEIR EYES SET ON FRANCE'S BILAL COULIBALY AT NO.12"

Yeah with this dumb ass Play In push season, that sounds about f*cking right lol smdh

So you think that OKC is leaking their draft preference a month before the draft, and that they're a really smart and well-run organization.

Obviously I don't think teams mean to leak info lol

It's like people forget there were leaks we would draft Scottie (ie/ it brought Chad Ford back from the dead for a moment lol) and I don't think they'd be particularly scared of someone taking the gamble ahead of them in the top 10 as most of the guys there have long been slated to go there. They know they have an abundance of picks and can afford to roll the dice...if anything it's becoming their calling card to take guys that are expected to go later but have some buzz around them ie/ Poku, Dieng etc. This pick completely fits the mold and he'd almost be an ideal SF for them between guys like SGA, Chet.

...and if it's not him, then I'd say it's likely Leonard Miller, another player they've been rumoured to want. Both guys fit the mold that both OKC & our franchise like. Quite frankly, I'll actually be quite stunned if it isn't one of the two.

[PhilBlackson]

so who are the sleepers in this draft. guys who will probably get picked if the Raptors come to their picks :

- #3 (if Raptors trade Siakam, say if Miller or Scoot isn't what Masai thinks they will be, will there be a surprise pick?)
- #13

will the Raptors be given an opportunity to work out/interview any of the top 10 supposed nba draft picks or will they be snubbed?

The obvious "surprise" pick at 3 would be Amen Thompson (something I actually said earlier this thread bc ofc they love to shock everyone lol) and at 13, it's not just because I like him a lot but I genuinely can see them draft Cissiko who I still find baffling that very few people talk about as a lottery level prospect and he completely fits both the physical profile and skillsets they usually value. I would throw in GG Jackson just because he fits the criteria as a shocking pick lol which again seems to the franchise's calling card at the draft. He fits the physical profile (not so much the defensive one). The other one that makes me sick to my stomach thinking is JHS, so good chance he's the pick lol smh

imagine if you drafted Amen Thompson but got Ausar Thompson instead (they switched identities on draft night because both twins wanted their other team )

LOL...you'd know though by the time they took a jump shot. Neither have a great one but Amen's is just ugly at this point and why low key I actually like Ausar more for our team because his shooting percentages are more in line with what OG's were in college except Ausar is doing that off the dribble. I could be wrong but from HLs (I know how deceiving they can be lol) there actually looks to be some shooting touch there, he just has a similar issue to OG & DeRozan in his lower body he likes to kick out. If they can clean that up, I really think Ausar could be a STEAL and why I'd hope to trade with DET or something for their pick + Duren but I won't sidebar too much.

But yeah, every draft we should all basically come to expect the unexpected lol smh

[Rapsfan07]

Yup! You can see he's like OG in the halfcourt with Barnes' passing!

Has anyone on any level made so many spin moves and behind the back passes, all of which were needed and not to show up an opponent? So many dunks in the halfcourt offense, you'd think he was a 6'8+ player.

Every time I go back and watch more footage of him (literally), I find myself thinking why isn't this kid getting more buzz?! He just has a great feel for the game, plays very under control with the ball in his hand, seems to know how to read a defence VERY well and after a couple of months of a rough start to the season (*ahem Scottie did too lol), he really came on down the stretch. His shooting just got better and better after a dismal start. I remember in that month span some podcast mentioned he was shooting something like 37+% or something from 3 down the stretch and his shot mechanics genuinely were looking pretty good to me.

Obviously not incredible number but if he can shoot anywhere above 35% down the line (I don't see why not when we've improved MUCH worse shooters and his mechanics don't look bad), he can be an absolute stud imo and I'm NOT saying his GAME is Jimmy but his FRAME is. He's so STRONG, if people liked Daniels last year, I really don't get why they don't like Sidy who's scoring actually looks better imo than DD's did pre-draft & again I'm not seeing what Black does that makes him that much better honestly.

I know the IDEAL situation is to leave this draft with a great shooting/scoring wing and quite frankly I don't know if I see that in our range. Keyont is a MAAAAYBE for me because he has every damn trick in the bag but of course the fact his shooting numbers weren't great (possibly due to the ankle problems), I'm just not fully confident but he'd be my back up pick and Bufkin to me looks like a pro but not a star. So I don't see a potential star shooting/scoring wing then I'm taking BPA and to me that looks like Sidy and I think he could be developed to score more along the lines of someone like Jalen Williams but perhaps is a bit more pass oriented which isn't the worst thing considering even with Scottie, we still found there wasn't enough movement in the offence and I just think worst case we'd develop him into a helluva player that be the next guy to become one those "OG, Pascal" type of wings that every team wants in a few years from now but that's just me (and prob you lol because I know you've been on the Sid Wagon too).

Sidy shows decent lateral quickness to slide on defense and looks strong and wide to wall up players. Shows decent IQ on rotations from the weakside. Physically can see the defensive potential like OG. Practicing with OG might help too. At 19 and playing in the GLeague he looks physically ready to hang in the NBA.

Bufkin seems to have also grown an inch over the past year but still slight and would need to get stronger or take a bit longer like a Bones Hyland or Tre Mann.

Would Utah trade #16, #28 and Rudy Gay (player option) for #13, Otto Porter Jr and Malachi Flynn?

Utah gets younger, maybe they take Black at #9 and don't want to miss out on Bufkin so move up from 16 to 13 and draft Bufkin.

Raptors draft Cissoko at #16 and #28 Trayce Jackson-Davis (minimum he's as good as Jaylin Williams, solid backup PF/C that plays for 10+ years). Trade Precious for Isaiah Joe!

PG FVV - Barnes - Dowtin
SG OG - Trent - Joe/Banton
SF Siakam - OG - Harper/Cissoko
PF Barnes - Boucher - TJD
C Poeltl - Siakam/Koloko

If Bufkin or Wallace is not on the board, sure. I'd give a trade with the Jazz some consideration. Might even consider Cissoko at #16 too. But I'd be going for Podz or another guard who can shoot at #28, not TJD and I'm a huge fan of his.

We need guys who can put the ball in the cup man.

[Psubs]

If Bufkin or Wallace is not on the board, sure. I'd give a trade with the Jazz some consideration. Might even consider Cissoko at #16 too. But I'd be going for Podz or another guard who can shoot at #28, not TJD and I'm a huge fan of his.

We need guys who can put the ball in the cup man.

Jaylin Williams did well in 3pt drills and in a small sample last year shot 40% from 3 for OKC. Sometimes, the bigs are able to get it sooner, but some get it later like Al Horford.

I guess if you want someone that can shoot right away, draft 20 year old, 6'11, Tristan Vukcevic at #28. In one of the scrimmages, Vukcevic scored 21 points in 16 mins, with 3's and pull up 16-18 footers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Vuk%C4%8Devi%C4%87

Dad is Serbian that played ball in Siena Italy, where Tristan was born. After bball done moved back to Greece. His mom is Greek/Swedish! Tristan was able to represent Serbia, Italy, Greece or Sweden and chose Serbia.

[WuTang_CMB]

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[Dalek]

If Bufkin or Wallace is not on the board, sure. I'd give a trade with the Jazz some consideration. Might even consider Cissoko at #16 too. But I'd be going for Podz or another guard who can shoot at #28, not TJD and I'm a huge fan of his.

We need guys who can put the ball in the cup man.

Jaylin Williams did well in 3pt drills and in a small sample last year shot 40% from 3 for OKC. Sometimes, the bigs are able to get it sooner, but some get it later like Al Horford.

I guess if you want someone that can shoot right away, draft 20 year old, 6'11, Tristan Vukcevic at #28. In one of the scrimmages, Vukcevic scored 21 points in 16 mins, with 3's and pull up 16-18 footers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Vuk%C4%8Devi%C4%87

Dad is Serbian that played ball in Siena Italy, where Tristan was born. After bball done moved back to Greece. His mom is Greek/Swedish! Tristan was able to represent Serbia, Italy, Greece or Sweden and chose Serbia.

I love Vukcevic and I think he will end up a second rounder because of his buyout/contract situation with Partizan. I think he will outperform his draft position. I'd probably target Charlotte because they have way too many seconds to deal with. A trade like Oubre plus a 2023 second for Boucher would make sense if they are uncertain to retain Bridges and/or Washington.

[docholliday99]

There's a lot of good discusion on here but for some reason, I can see it go down like this:
And with the 13th pick, the Raptors select ***so and so***
Raptor fans and media - who the hell is ***So and so***?

[ItsDanger]

If Bufkin or Wallace is not on the board, sure. I'd give a trade with the Jazz some consideration. Might even consider Cissoko at #16 too. But I'd be going for Podz or another guard who can shoot at #28, not TJD and I'm a huge fan of his.

We need guys who can put the ball in the cup man.

Jaylin Williams did well in 3pt drills and in a small sample last year shot 40% from 3 for OKC. Sometimes, the bigs are able to get it sooner, but some get it later like Al Horford.

I guess if you want someone that can shoot right away, draft 20 year old, 6'11, Tristan Vukcevic at #28. In one of the scrimmages, Vukcevic scored 21 points in 16 mins, with 3's and pull up 16-18 footers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Vuk%C4%8Devi%C4%87

Dad is Serbian that played ball in Siena Italy, where Tristan was born. After bball done moved back to Greece. His mom is Greek/Swedish! Tristan was able to represent Serbia, Italy, Greece or Sweden and chose Serbia.

My impression of Vukcevic from combine was his shooting is definitely legit but his defensive awareness appeared lacking. But its the combine scrimmage and bigs can look worse in some aspects of the game due to the lack of structure. Anybody with that height and shooting stroke is going to get drafted.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Putting him a brace could likely be to help immobilize him so he doesn't aggravate the muscles.

But if there is something wrong structurally, then that would be a major red flag for sure.

If there's anything seriously structurally it would come out in the medical evaluation anyway, not through John Hollinger. Teams still will take risks, though. MJP had serious back surgery in his draft year and still went pretty high. Embiid had a stress fracture in his spinal column and still went #3. iirc Drummond did as well, and of course, TJ Ford was briefly paralyzed in a game right before the draft. Still went 8th. NBA teams have a super high threshold for risk because they'll just use these players as meat anyway. Teams aren't thinking of drafting Cason for what he'll look like in year 10.

From what I saw, he had a productive year at UK. I doubt he'll slide that much, if at all, and I would bet the Spurs put this out there for people like Hollinger to pick up on.

[HiJiNX]

Aight so I’ve watched some footage. I’ll offer some preliminary opinions.

With respect to guys that can be had around our pick, this is where I’m at today:

1. GG Jackson

High risk, high reward pick. But I love his footwork, strength, shot mechanics, poise and tough shot making. I wish he was a little bit more explosive. Reminds me of a stronger Paul George. In my opinion he has all-star written all over him. I’m surprised more people aren’t talking about him to be honest. He already knows how to find his spots and convert. Gets to his shot easily. Tall enough to shoot over most folks with ease. He just needs some seasoning.

2. Sidy Cissoko

Really strong. Really smart. Big and lengthy and athletic. Good shot mechanics. Smart! Great passer. Interested in making the right play. I think he can be a great second option one day. Not sure if there’s enough offensively to project him as a lead guy. At worst he’s a Boris Diaw type with more athleticism.

3. Cason Wallace

Strong and athletic two-way guard who does more than stats indicate. His injury history is a bit of a concern. If you take that out of the equation he’s a can’t miss prospect. Future starting PG on a contending team at worst. He just makes high impact plays.

4. Keyonte George

He can do a lot with the tools he’s been given. I wish he were a little taller. Still, he plays with ferocity and gets the most out of his skills. He strikes me as a hard worker and a winner. Can either boom or bust but I’d bet on boom.

5. Bilal Coulibilay

Raw. But very intriguing. If he has the right work ethic and environment he can develop into an all-star over time. Very bouncy. Great first step. Limited handle. Elbow sticks out on his jumper and there’s a hitch that scares me a bit. However, if he can get the handle and jumper worked out he can be a very good player in the league.

6. Kobe Bufkin

I don’t think I’m as high on him as others. I’m just not enamoured by his physical profile. I wish he were stronger and/or more explosive. I think the transition to the league will be challenging for him. He might surprise though and I can see myself being very wrong about him.

Anyway, I didn’t watch much college ball this last year so all of these opinions are based on YouTube videos which means I am likely flagrantly wrong about at least one of these guys. It’ll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

[Dalek]

Dan Tolzman did a Sun interview about the draft. A few quotes:

“There’s a whole crop of players that the agent says there is not a chance they will be on the board at 13 and there’s another crop of players whose agents say ‘you would never take our guy at 13,’ so how do you dance around that and convince both sides ‘let’s be ready for anything that happens on draft night?'” Tolzman said of the Raptors’ position.

Further limiting the number of players that will view Toronto as a viable option and therefore worthy of a workout visit is the team’s lack of a second-round pick this year, which belongs to San Antonio courtesy of the Jakob Poeltl trade.

“That changes the dynamic of the whole other group of players that we are able to usually bring in,” Tolzman said. “Those players need to prioritize other teams that have second-round picks. We are kind of stuck in that convincing lottery guys to come in and work out and then filling in workouts around that with the best players we can.”

“It could be all over the place for that next group of players (after the top three) in terms of the actual order,” Tolzman said. “Maybe some ordering will sort itself out over the next couple of weeks, but it does seem that more so than in previous years, the randomness to the order seems to be a little bit more than usual.”

https://torontosun.com/sports/basketball/nba/toronto-raptors/lucky-13th-pick-in-draft

The way Tolzman sounds every year it always is Raptors trying to convince guys for workouts, and no matter where we are picking, guys say they won't be available. Frustrating. I wish we be more in control of the draft rather than waiting for things to happen all the time.

He does have a point about the randomness factor this year. I think a guy like Jett Howard or Brice Sensibaugh might sneak into the lottery, or a Cason Wallace or Nick Smith Jr. drops because of injury concerns. I also have no idea how the GMs perceive the Thompson twins who are older and playing in a weird league.

The guy I have no clue about is Cam Whitmore. Everyone seems to rate him as a high lotto pick and I don't get it. Good athlete but he has short wingspan, doesn't pass, and isn't a great shooter and this was a rare bad Villanova team. To me, he is Justice Winslow/Stanley Johnson all over again. All highlights and projections, but offers little substance as a prospect.

[ItsDanger]

Even the agents are frustrated with the Raps front office.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Even the agents are frustrated with the Raps front office.

What part of that article indicated they were frustrated?

[Reeko]

Dan Tolzman did a Sun interview about the draft. A few quotes:

“There’s a whole crop of players that the agent says there is not a chance they will be on the board at 13 and there’s another crop of players whose agents say ‘you would never take our guy at 13,’ so how do you dance around that and convince both sides ‘let’s be ready for anything that happens on draft night?'” Tolzman said of the Raptors’ position.

Further limiting the number of players that will view Toronto as a viable option and therefore worthy of a workout visit is the team’s lack of a second-round pick this year, which belongs to San Antonio courtesy of the Jakob Poeltl trade.

“That changes the dynamic of the whole other group of players that we are able to usually bring in,” Tolzman said. “Those players need to prioritize other teams that have second-round picks. We are kind of stuck in that convincing lottery guys to come in and work out and then filling in workouts around that with the best players we can.”

“It could be all over the place for that next group of players (after the top three) in terms of the actual order,” Tolzman said. “Maybe some ordering will sort itself out over the next couple of weeks, but it does seem that more so than in previous years, the randomness to the order seems to be a little bit more than usual.”

https://torontosun.com/sports/basketball/nba/toronto-raptors/lucky-13th-pick-in-draft

The way Tolzman sounds every year it always is Raptors trying to convince guys for workouts, and no matter where we are picking, guys say they won't be available. Frustrating. I wish we be more in control of the draft rather than waiting for things to happen all the time.

He does have a point about the randomness factor this year. I think a guy like Jett Howard or Brice Sensibaugh might sneak into the lottery, or a Cason Wallace or Nick Smith Jr. drops because of injury concerns. I also have no idea how the GMs perceive the Thompson twins who are older and playing in a weird league.

The guy I have no clue about is Cam Whitmore. Everyone seems to rate him as a high lotto pick and I don't get it. Good athlete but he has short wingspan, doesn't pass, and isn't a great shooter and this was a rare bad Villanova team. To me, he is Justice Winslow/Stanley Johnson all over again. All highlights and projections, but offers little substance as a prospect.

What kind of agent tells a team "You would never take our guy at 13"? Unless he's projected to go late first or 2nd round. And on the other side, how arrogant do you have to be to tell teams that there's no chance that your client will fall on draft night? If Tolzman is actually dealing with this then there's probably only going to be like 10-15 players that are going to work out for the Raps.

I also agree with you about Cam Whitmore, I just don't see it. A big red flag for me is when I heard someone say that he needs to speed up his decision making and the speed at which he processes the game, but he was still taking Cam 5th in his mock draft lol. Physical gifts are great, but if you can't read the game at a high level then your best case scenario is as a low level starter or bench player.

[ItsDanger]

Even the agents are frustrated with the Raps front office.

What part of that article indicated they were frustrated?

"You would never take our guy at 13" indicates something to me, otherwise different language would be used. Teams trade down all the time. If people are waiting for exact confirmation from this team, you'll never get it. That's my interpretation. If I was advising my agents, I'd bypass Raps also if I don't think they're serious or fit their prototype. Their clients only have 3+ weeks to fit workouts in plus travel time. You got to trim it down somehow.

[alpngso]

I like Wallace but he’ll be closer to being Suggs or Kris Dunn than Jrue. Jrue led the team in scoring in Philly. I doubt Wallace develops into that player

[ATLTimekeeper]

They don't want to overexpose their client or even let it be known they're working out well down the draft order. I read this as "Thompsons." But, yeah, he complains about this every single year.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Even the agents are frustrated with the Raps front office.

What part of that article indicated they were frustrated?

"You would never take our guy at 13" indicates something to me, otherwise different language would be used. Teams trade down all the time. If people are waiting for exact confirmation from this team, you'll never get it. That's my interpretation. If I was advising my agents, I'd bypass Raps also if I don't think they're serious or fit their prototype. Their clients only have 3+ weeks to fit workouts in plus travel time. You got to trim it down somehow.

So the Raptors should share trade discussions with an independent agent to create better relationships?