'17-'18 POY discussion

[therealbig3]

What are our thoughts on Donovan Mitchell? Is he good for a rookie, or is he just legit good? I don't think I've ever seen such a polished scorer as a rookie. He's got veteran savvy when it comes to creating looks for himself and breaking defenders off the dribble and finishing around the rim, but with the athleticism of a young buck. I like his defense too, although that might be a product of playing for a great defensive team. But he seems to be a pretty tough man defender that they trust to guard the likes of George and Westbrook.

He's been super impressive to me.

[Dr Spaceman]

What are our thoughts on Donovan Mitchell? Is he good for a rookie, or is he just legit good? I don't think I've ever seen such a polished scorer as a rookie. He's got veteran savvy when it comes to creating looks for himself and breaking defenders off the dribble and finishing around the rim, but with the athleticism of a young buck. I like his defense too, although that might be a product of playing for a great defensive team. But he seems to be a pretty tough man defender that they trust to guard the likes of George and Westbrook.

He's been super impressive to me.

Oh no he’s legit good. We’ve known this since December. It’s only because of Ben Simmons that there’s not more conversation around him but when you consider his body of work this season I think you could have him top 20.

[dhsilv2]

What are our thoughts on Donovan Mitchell? Is he good for a rookie, or is he just legit good? I don't think I've ever seen such a polished scorer as a rookie. He's got veteran savvy when it comes to creating looks for himself and breaking defenders off the dribble and finishing around the rim, but with the athleticism of a young buck. I like his defense too, although that might be a product of playing for a great defensive team. But he seems to be a pretty tough man defender that they trust to guard the likes of George and Westbrook.

He's been super impressive to me.

I'd guess he's somewhere in the 25-40 range which given the depth in the league is legit good. There have been so many injuries this year its been hard to rank players for me. For example I don't think he's as good as Gobert but he played more games and you could argue he was the more important guy over the course of the season because of that. For whatever it's worth he was 27th in WINS this year which is behind his teammate Ingles, so I'll let others debate what that means.

bottom line the guy is a really capable scorer, but I'm not sure he's more than just a scoring role player at this point.

[HeartBreakKid]

We just lehat are our thoughts on Donovan Mitchell? Is he good for a rookie, or is hgit good? I don't think I've ever seen such a polished scorer as a rookie. He's got veteran savvy when it comes to creating looks for himself and breaking defenders off the dribble and finishing around the rim, but with the athleticism of a young buck. I like his defense too, although that might be a product of playing for a great defensive team. But he seems to be a pretty tough man defender that they trust to guard the likes of George and Westbrook.

He's been super impressive to me.

What kind of question is this? Can Michael Jordan jump high, or just jump high for a basketball player?

Isn't it obvious he's a legit player?

[RSCD3_]

I'm hearing a lot on how Russell deciding to "lock Rubio down" was a bad strategy but I'm curious how much has Rubio guarded westbrook because Rubio has a reputation as a great defender and westbrook is having a bad series from an efficiency standpoint

[eminence]

I'm hearing a lot on how Russell deciding to "lock Rubio down" was a bad strategy but I'm curious how much has Rubio guarded westbrook because Rubio has a reputation as a great defender and westbrook is having a bad series from an efficiency standpoint

Feels like Rubio/Mitchell have gotten the assignment pretty evenly. Not sure, could be wrong.

[Outside]

This is the worst POY race in quite awhile

I think it's a very interesting POY race. Harden is the clear leader coming out of the RS, but others have had a more impressive PS so far. Harden isn't so far ahead that no one can catch him if he and Houston stumble in the PS. Can Giannis lead his team past Boston? Can Davis keep up his level of play in the next round? How will Simmons and Embiid continue to perform?

If Harden leads Houston to the title, then POY is his. But if that doesn't happen, there's a group behind him jockeying for position. Lots to watch for, and we're not even out of the first round.

[Outside]

What are our thoughts on Donovan Mitchell? Is he good for a rookie, or is he just legit good? I don't think I've ever seen such a polished scorer as a rookie. He's got veteran savvy when it comes to creating looks for himself and breaking defenders off the dribble and finishing around the rim, but with the athleticism of a young buck. I like his defense too, although that might be a product of playing for a great defensive team. But he seems to be a pretty tough man defender that they trust to guard the likes of George and Westbrook.

He's been super impressive to me.

Very impressed with him and with Utah. They're the opposite of OKC -- cohesive, smart, disciplined, more than the sum of their parts. They've exposed and frustrated OKC, and assuming they and Houston move on, they'll give the Rockets fits.

But it only works for Utah because they have just enough offense, and Mitchell is the key to that. Ingles, Rubio, Gobert, and Favors all do their part scoring-wise, but none of them can create their own shot like Mitchell.

We'll see if he can sustain it against a different opponent that is likely to key on him more. I haven't seen much from him as a playmaker, but my guess is that he'll be called upon to do that more.

[therealbig3]

We just lehat are our thoughts on Donovan Mitchell? Is he good for a rookie, or is hgit good? I don't think I've ever seen such a polished scorer as a rookie. He's got veteran savvy when it comes to creating looks for himself and breaking defenders off the dribble and finishing around the rim, but with the athleticism of a young buck. I like his defense too, although that might be a product of playing for a great defensive team. But he seems to be a pretty tough man defender that they trust to guard the likes of George and Westbrook.

He's been super impressive to me.

What kind of question is this? Can Michael Jordan jump high, or just jump high for a basketball player?

Isn't it obvious he's a legit player?

Didn't really think I needed to explain it all that much, pretty simple question. Good for a rookie can mean a not great player that surpasses expectations, because well, rookies typically suck.

Legit good means he's just good in general, relative to the league. Others have seen him more than me, was wondering if this is kind of how he's always played, or if it's kind of fluky.

[ardee]

What is a better scenario for the Pelicans?

1. Spurs push the series against GSW to 6-7, so the Pels have a rest advantage, but it means Curry could come back sooner.

2. GSW wins tonight, so Pels get less rest but it means Curry might not come back during the series.

[MisterHibachi]

It's all part of the same phenomenon yes, but I'm not the one ignoring context. That would be all the folks who refuse to deal with the fact that LeBron made this bed. In any other profession that would be absurd. If a start-up founder demands control over personnel decisions and then produces mediocre work, it impresses no one if he says "Yeah all the people I hired sucked, but check it out, I did all of this by myself!", and it doesn't make said founder look any better if he effectively got the same place just by being a passive aggressive prick.

This is may or may not all be true, but the analogy doesn't really work. It's more like a key worker was unhappy, the reasons for which are many (including LeBron) and his replacements not performing up to par because of health issues. I don't see any other situation in which we blame a guy for his teammates being unhealthy. Cavs aren't as good as last year, but not as bad as they've looked at their worst this year. They've used something like 33 different starting lineups. That is a ridiculous amount. I don't think it's fair to blame him for his teammates' bad health. And keep in mind this is the fourth year after 3 straight finals runs. Team-wide burnout should be expected, this happened in Miami too. Even if he had repaired his relationship with Kyrie, that team would be doing as well or worse than this one considering Kyrie is out for the season. Playoff runs this deep year after year is draining.

LeBron chose to use his leverage to take control over the franchise he played for, and in doing so the only reasonable way to evaluate his accomplishment is in how the franchise does. Refusing to do that leaves us in a position where we actually praise him more the more he just does everything himself despite the fact that we know that that can lower a team's ceiling.

As others have pointed out, so long as LeBron's team keeps being elite when it counts, this won't really matter to people. But the very idea that I should be watching LeBron's team struggle take on a team full of cast-offs with the 3rd cheapest payroll in the league and only thinking "Wow, isn't LeBron just the best?" is absurd to me.

But this just seems a version of great man theory of basketball that at some point leads to ring counting. Why is there no context considered other than LeBron's team is elite or it's not elite. Why can't we discuss the reasons for it, one of which is the off-court stuff that you talk about but by no means the only context. Health being one, the GM loading the roster with non-shooters being another one. Yeah he has a lot of off-court influence, but he's not surrounded by robots. Guys around him make autonomous decisions, both the guys on the court and the coach, and we have to consider that.

I would be a bit more sympathetic about the player vs GM stuff if it weren't for the fact that much of what people would call "GM stuff" is simply based on how LeBron has chosen to play in Cleveland. LeBron the Player didn't like Blatt the coach. LeBron the Player was sick of playing a complex team-oriented scheme in Miami. LeBron the basketball mind doesn't understand the value in personally taking on less on the court to allow others get into a better groove. LeBron the team leader doesn't understand how his mentality has made his teammates feel like they are in a precarious position.

Look this just isn't true. It's well documented that LeBron came to Cleveland with the intention of having Kyrie be the point guard and the leader of the offense, and changed approaches when he realized Kyrie just wasn't up to it, and the change was for the better. Kyrie focused on scoring is better for the team than Kyrie focused on distributing, he's just better at the former. And we can't really speak to his teammates' mentality unless you're in the locker room itself. We have guys like RJ saying he's one of the best teammates he's had, guys like Miller, Jones, Wade following him to Cleveland. I haven't really seen any toxic hints. Also, Blatt was a flat out bad coach and locker room manager his first year, there's no reason to cape for him (he was even pissing off the Cleveland media). And we have as much reason to believe LeBron genuinely cared about winning a ring in Cleveland as the narrative that he chaffed at the lack of power in Miami.

To me people are drawing boundaries between these things in ways that just don't make sense. LeBron is LeBron, and this is where Cleveland is now 4 years into becoming Team LeBron again because LeBron is LeBron. When you seek to divide LeBron into independent parts based on specific roles he plays as if he plays them in isolation, you lose the holistic truth of the matter.

I'm not dividing them into independent parts. I think you're overly focused on off-court LeBron and blaming all of Cleveland's shortcomings on one person's vague off-court actions. Yes, he has an outsized influence on everything in Cleveland, but as I said he has people around him making independent decisions. Fine you can blame him in part for Kyrie leaving, but is it his fault Gilbert runs the worst franchise around and doesn't re-sign a championship winning GM who knows what players to put around LeBron? Is it his fault Gilbert signs Calderon first week of free agency and Derrick Rose and Green later on? Is it his fault IT never got healthy, and that Cleveland has not been healthy all year, and even now is forced to start Calderon because his starting point guard is injured? These questions can't be answered by pointing to off-court LeBron but they still matter in evaluating 2018 LeBron and the Cavs. I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge that.

[MisterHibachi]

What is a better scenario for the Pelicans?

1. Spurs push the series against GSW to 6-7, so the Pels have a rest advantage, but it means Curry could come back sooner.

2. GSW wins tonight, so Pels get less rest but it means Curry might not come back during the series.

Definitely number 2. Pels are in a great groove, extended rest for them isn't that advantageous.

[ardee]

What is a better scenario for the Pelicans?

1. Spurs push the series against GSW to 6-7, so the Pels have a rest advantage, but it means Curry could come back sooner.

2. GSW wins tonight, so Pels get less rest but it means Curry might not come back during the series.

Definitely number 2. Pels are in a great groove, extended rest for them isn't that advantageous.

Well then I'm rooting for a triple OT win for GSW over the Spurs tonight haha.

[dhsilv2]

Anyone else see AD averaging 40+ in a 5 game loss vs the warriors? I feel it'll just be another 15 where the warriors dare him to beat them and win easily.

[dhsilv2]

What is a better scenario for the Pelicans?

1. Spurs push the series against GSW to 6-7, so the Pels have a rest advantage, but it means Curry could come back sooner.

2. GSW wins tonight, so Pels get less rest but it means Curry might not come back during the series.

Healthy curry is a 0% change for the pels. Without him the pels have a good solid 1% shot, maybe 2%.

[RSCD3_]

Anyone else see AD averaging 40+ in a 5 game loss vs the warriors? I feel it'll just be another 15 where the warriors dare him to beat them and win easily.

Who's gonna guard jrue holiday?

[MisterHibachi]

LeBron James clearly has a plan

1. Go to a promising team with talent and assets
2. Maximize those two things to create the best short term contention team (even if that means trading two firsts for Mozgov)
3. Cut cord when it is clear that the team isn't a contender anymore
4. Get credit for what you have done to help the team compete and also look good because the narrative is that the team without you has fallen apart. LeBron is gone by the time the team falls apart so no one blames him for that.


Through sheer circumstance though the team fell apart a year before he could leave and he is now suffering from it. I don't want to blame him for the Kyrie situation because Kyrie is an ambitious person who like Harden wanted to prove he could do it as the best player. However, all the bad short terms moves the Cavs have made and the contracts that have been given out are his fault.

We don't see teams make 4 straight finals runs for a reason. LeBron can obviously endure these finals runs, his teammates can't. Miami was running on fumes in 2014. I've said in this thread and the LeBron thread before: if LeBron's teams keep making these deep playoff runs year after year, it's necessary for him to change teams after a certain point (which after Miami and Cleveland appears to be 4 years). His teammates have proven they cannot handle these deep runs, and fresh teammates after a certain period prolong LeBron's contention window. So yeah, the plan appears to be to maximize his contention window, I thought that was the whole point.

Also, are we really saying trading two firsts for Mozgov was a bad thing when it resulted in a title? Do we all recall how bad Cleveland's defense was prior to trading for Mozgov?

[ardee]

What is a better scenario for the Pelicans?

1. Spurs push the series against GSW to 6-7, so the Pels have a rest advantage, but it means Curry could come back sooner.

2. GSW wins tonight, so Pels get less rest but it means Curry might not come back during the series.

Healthy curry is a 0% change for the pels. Without him the pels have a good solid 1% shot, maybe 2%.

You are seriously overestimating the Warriors without Curry. I've said before in this thread, beating up on the Spurs is not an indicator of much given their only other creator besides LMA is a 41 year old.

Warriors are still the favorite but AD God-mode with his cast clicking so well around him has a non-insignificant chance.

[dhsilv2]

What is a better scenario for the Pelicans?

1. Spurs push the series against GSW to 6-7, so the Pels have a rest advantage, but it means Curry could come back sooner.

2. GSW wins tonight, so Pels get less rest but it means Curry might not come back during the series.

Healthy curry is a 0% change for the pels. Without him the pels have a good solid 1% shot, maybe 2%.

You are seriously overestimating the Warriors without Curry. I've said before in this thread, beating up on the Spurs is not an indicator of much given their only other creator besides LMA is a 41 year old.

Warriors are still the favorite but AD God-mode with his cast clicking so well around him has a non-insignificant chance.

AD isn't anywhere close to "god mode". He's got a 5.0 BPM so far in the playoffs. The warriors will be fine letting him score 40+. And trust me I don't think the warriors are all that great without Curry.

[dhsilv2]

Anyone else see AD averaging 40+ in a 5 game loss vs the warriors? I feel it'll just be another 15 where the warriors dare him to beat them and win easily.

Who's gonna guard jrue holiday?

It's a zone world, but i assume we'll see Klay get the primary role on him.