Around the NBA 18/19 Thread 5

[kodo]

We blew a major chance with Gasol to pair up with Wallace....I will never forgive Pax for it. It was when PJ Brown had just retired (the first time) but we still had his rights because his contract had just ended. He could have been extended/S&T'd on a non-guaranteed deal (trying to remember the exact rules) without ever leaving the couch, but we didn't do it.

I remember an interview where Pax said there wasn't a way to get Gasol and I literally screamed at the TV. Under the old CBA, you would see the occasional retired player get traded....I remember working out all of the number and was thinking that Paxson is either lying (on Uncle Jerry's orders)....or just stupid. That was when I really started to dislike Paxson. I think Gasol ended up going to the Lakers for rusty scrap metal.
...

Reinsdorf himself said in an interview (was it back in 2009?) that Paxson had the Gasol trade completely lined up. He vetoed it. He didn't think Gasol was a #1 player on a title team like Michael was. But JR said it was entirely his call.

But if Paxson said there wasn't a way to get Gasol, that was just spin for the media. JR said Paxson had it all arranged.

[panthermark]

We blew a major chance with Gasol to pair up with Wallace....I will never forgive Pax for it. It was when PJ Brown had just retired (the first time) but we still had his rights because his contract had just ended. He could have been extended/S&T'd on a non-guaranteed deal (trying to remember the exact rules) without ever leaving the couch, but we didn't do it.

I remember an interview where Pax said there wasn't a way to get Gasol and I literally screamed at the TV. Under the old CBA, you would see the occasional retired player get traded....I remember working out all of the number and was thinking that Paxson is either lying (on Uncle Jerry's orders)....or just stupid. That was when I really started to dislike Paxson. I think Gasol ended up going to the Lakers for rusty scrap metal.
...

Reinsdorf himself said in an interview (was it back in 2009?) that Paxson had the Gasol trade completely lined up. He vetoed it. He didn't think Gasol was a #1 player on a title team like Michael was. But JR said it was entirely his call.

But if Paxson said there wasn't a way to get Gasol, that was just spin for the media. JR said Paxson had it all arranged.

Interesting...
This would have been right after the 06-07 season if I remember correctly.

[Mech Engineer]

- Overrate their 1-3 year players. In what realm are Wendell and Lauri untouchable?

Utah just traded Grayson Allen. Paxson would have had a hard time trading a pick so early. I know WCJ/Lauri are lottery picks but when you have players who have perceived value but are not stars, you need to strike at the right moment. They will not do that and in a few years one of WCJ/Lauri might end up having below average value.

[Mech Engineer]

We blew a major chance with Gasol to pair up with Wallace....I will never forgive Pax for it. It was when PJ Brown had just retired (the first time) but we still had his rights because his contract had just ended. He could have been extended/S&T'd on a non-guaranteed deal (trying to remember the exact rules) without ever leaving the couch, but we didn't do it.

I remember an interview where Pax said there wasn't a way to get Gasol and I literally screamed at the TV. Under the old CBA, you would see the occasional retired player get traded....I remember working out all of the number and was thinking that Paxson is either lying (on Uncle Jerry's orders)....or just stupid. That was when I really started to dislike Paxson. I think Gasol ended up going to the Lakers for rusty scrap metal.
...

Reinsdorf himself said in an interview (was it back in 2009?) that Paxson had the Gasol trade completely lined up. He vetoed it. He didn't think Gasol was a #1 player on a title team like Michael was. But JR said it was entirely his call.

But if Paxson said there wasn't a way to get Gasol, that was just spin for the media. JR said Paxson had it all arranged.

Interesting...
This would have been right after the 06-07 season if I remember correctly.

It might be the other way around too. Reinsdorf protecting Paxson from the criticism. The "Gasol isn't MJ" might be Pax's words because he didn't want to pull the trigger and Reinsdorf is taking the heat for the trade not happening.

In general, it tells the inflexibility or foolishness of these people i.e. expecting to only build around a MJ and then get desperate to eventually build with guys like Hinrich, Deng etc... You get Gasol and add another "Gasol" level player in free agency...your team would be in great shape. They want only MJ level players but don't realize they are Chicago and not Memphis if they have to build around Gasol.

[cjbulls]

You need to be prepared constantly for those windows. These trades are available damn near every single year. And this front office has constantly been unprepared or unwilling during them. You can't imagine them making those moves, because they would have been completely game changing moves that would have required a different roster in the first place just to have the assets to make the move.

It is impossible to "constantly" be available to make a superstar trade. It makes no sense. By the time you have the right youth pieces in place then you need to start paying them. Stop being so unrealistic.

The Bulls are actually entering that window in the next couple of years, you should be excited.

Things the Bulls do that certainly kill the possibility of being in the discussion for star trades:

- Sign old guys like Wade, Hinrich or the currently rumored Taj. UNTRADEABLE for anything but a favor-to-somebody/salary dump.

- Hold onto guys entering 3rd or 4th year RFA status with limited intentions of resigning. Trading Bobby for Porter was a huge break. UNTRADEABLE usually.

- Resigning injury reserves to meaningful salaries (such as Felicio). I really hope they don’t pay Arci some kind of real NBA salary ($4m+), but who knows with them.

- Overrate their 1-3 year players. In what realm are Wendell and Lauri untouchable?

There is a ton of hindsight bias coming through in this post. Now they shouldn't sign veterans? Shouldn't hold onto young players?

What should they do right now? You're the GM. Are you trading for AD using Lauri, LaVine, #7 and next years FRP (top 5 protected?)? That's about equal to the Lakers offer. What move are you making instead?

[Axolotl]

So apparently cap space is more valuable than present day and future Chris Paul.

[cjbulls]

- Overrate their 1-3 year players. In what realm are Wendell and Lauri untouchable?

Utah just traded Grayson Allen. Paxson would have had a hard time trading a pick so early. I know WCJ/Lauri are lottery picks but when you have players who have perceived value but are not stars, you need to strike at the right moment. They will not do that and in a few years one of WCJ/Lauri might end up having below average value.

Please propose a realistic trade for Lauri or Wendell or Hutch?

If Pax traded for Conley, 75% or more of this board would have been screaming angry about it. Let's say they deal 7 and 38 to Boston for 14 and 20 and 22; then turn around and deal 22+Felicio+Dunn +Future FRP for Conley. No one supported acquiring Conley except for me.

Some people just want to bash the front office for everything.

[ImSlower]

So apparently cap space is more valuable than present day and future Chris Paul.

Indeed. His contract is just huge for a player who almost everyone agrees is on his career downslope. If he were making 10 or 15 million less a year, I think there would be solid interest, but paying 41 and 44 million his final two years is incredibly cumbersome.

These huge max contracts are dangerous unless a team is truly confident their best player will stay that way the duration.

[jump]

Utah gave a relative sh*t ton of assets for Conley. We don't have that many assets, nor should we give up future picks.

[Chi town]

Utah gave a relative sh*t ton of assets for Conley. We don't have that many assets, nor should we give up future picks.

Overpay. West is wide open. Let’s see if it pays off.

[MrSparkle]

So apparently cap space is more valuable than present day and future Chris Paul.

Indeed. His contract is just huge for a player who almost everyone agrees is on his career downslope. If he were making 10 or 15 million less a year, I think there would be solid interest, but paying 41 and 44 million his final two years is incredibly cumbersome.

These huge max contracts are dangerous unless a team is truly confident their best player will stay that way the duration.

Yep.

I'm of the unpopular opinion that... 7-9 max contracts are fairly toxic to any team, the 10+ max is very toxic regardless of how good the player is. I suppose I'll grant exceptions to Lebron and Durant (maybe not anymore due to the tear). But I find it funny that teams like NYK or BRK are salivating at the idea of getting a Kyrie, Jimmy, etc. Big whoop. You're gonna cap out and still be short of beating the best teams.

It's a curious thing but you want those max players long before that 3rd extension. Unless you've already ballooned above the cap with a veteran deep playoff roster and are resigning a contender piece (such as Toronto with Kawhi, or GSW being in the right if they just max out all 3 of KD, Klay and Dray).

I thought the Bulls were in a unique situation with Jimmy from 14-16 but they managed to F it all up and mismanage the cap and prior picks (and trades). Doesn't get any better than having a top-8 player on a $15m/prior-CBA max in a ballooning cap with all your picks and cap-space.

[MrSparkle]

It is impossible to "constantly" be available to make a superstar trade. It makes no sense. By the time you have the right youth pieces in place then you need to start paying them. Stop being so unrealistic.

The Bulls are actually entering that window in the next couple of years, you should be excited.

Things the Bulls do that certainly kill the possibility of being in the discussion for star trades:

- Sign old guys like Wade, Hinrich or the currently rumored Taj. UNTRADEABLE for anything but a favor-to-somebody/salary dump.

- Hold onto guys entering 3rd or 4th year RFA status with limited intentions of resigning. Trading Bobby for Porter was a huge break. UNTRADEABLE usually.

- Resigning injury reserves to meaningful salaries (such as Felicio). I really hope they don’t pay Arci some kind of real NBA salary ($4m+), but who knows with them.

- Overrate their 1-3 year players. In what realm are Wendell and Lauri untouchable?

There is a ton of hindsight bias coming through in this post. Now they shouldn't sign veterans? Shouldn't hold onto young players?

What should they do right now? You're the GM. Are you trading for AD using Lauri, LaVine, #7 and next years FRP (top 5 protected?)? That's about equal to the Lakers offer. What move are you making instead?

IMO Lauri and Zach smoke the skill and value of Ingram (seeking a max extension next summer) and Ball (basically a bust). We both know this year's draft is a crap-shoot; not a big difference between 4 and 7. But I wouldn't do that trade because I'd want Zach to compliment Davis.

I definitely don't think we should sign 30+ year old big men, unless they're vet min.

[cjbulls]

Things the Bulls do that certainly kill the possibility of being in the discussion for star trades:

- Sign old guys like Wade, Hinrich or the currently rumored Taj. UNTRADEABLE for anything but a favor-to-somebody/salary dump.

- Hold onto guys entering 3rd or 4th year RFA status with limited intentions of resigning. Trading Bobby for Porter was a huge break. UNTRADEABLE usually.

- Resigning injury reserves to meaningful salaries (such as Felicio). I really hope they don’t pay Arci some kind of real NBA salary ($4m+), but who knows with them.

- Overrate their 1-3 year players. In what realm are Wendell and Lauri untouchable?

There is a ton of hindsight bias coming through in this post. Now they shouldn't sign veterans? Shouldn't hold onto young players?

What should they do right now? You're the GM. Are you trading for AD using Lauri, LaVine, #7 and next years FRP (top 5 protected?)? That's about equal to the Lakers offer. What move are you making instead?

IMO Lauri and Zach smoke the skill and value of Ingram (seeking a max extension next summer) and Ball (basically a bust). We both know this year's draft is a crap-shoot; not a big difference between 4 and 7. But I wouldn't do that trade because I'd want Zach to compliment Davis.

I definitely don't think we should sign 30+ year old big men, unless they're vet min.

OK so you have ZERO ideas and want to hang onto the young guys. What are you, Pax, Jr.? I guess you realize it's harder to make these decisions in real-time as opposed to in hindsight.

I do agree that Lauri and Zach are better prospect than Ingram and Ball (who is not a bust). But they also included the #4 pick, two other FRPs including 2022 and multiple pick swaps. So you need to factor that into the calculation.

[Leslie Forman]

What should they do right now? You're the GM. Are you trading for AD using Lauri, LaVine, #7 and next years FRP (top 5 protected?)? That's about equal to the Lakers offer. What move are you making instead?

Ain't our job, chief.

None of us know exactly what has been truly possible the last decade and a half. Saying "what else could they have done" for any front office is a weak excuse that only works if you can't imagine them doing anything differently, ever.

A good front office wouldn't have needed to dump Jimmy Butler in the first damn place.

[cjbulls]

So apparently cap space is more valuable than present day and future Chris Paul.

Indeed. His contract is just huge for a player who almost everyone agrees is on his career downslope. If he were making 10 or 15 million less a year, I think there would be solid interest, but paying 41 and 44 million his final two years is incredibly cumbersome.

These huge max contracts are dangerous unless a team is truly confident their best player will stay that way the duration.

If he were a free agent this year, he'd be getting very close to that number, especially on a two year deal. Probably from the Bulls or Suns (or Lakers). 21 pts and 6 assists on 57% TS. Those are basically Zach's numbers, but you get better defense and playmaking.

[MrSparkle]

There is a ton of hindsight bias coming through in this post. Now they shouldn't sign veterans? Shouldn't hold onto young players?

What should they do right now? You're the GM. Are you trading for AD using Lauri, LaVine, #7 and next years FRP (top 5 protected?)? That's about equal to the Lakers offer. What move are you making instead?

IMO Lauri and Zach smoke the skill and value of Ingram (seeking a max extension next summer) and Ball (basically a bust). We both know this year's draft is a crap-shoot; not a big difference between 4 and 7. But I wouldn't do that trade because I'd want Zach to compliment Davis.

I definitely don't think we should sign 30+ year old big men, unless they're vet min.

OK so you have ZERO ideas and want to hang onto the young guys. What are you, Pax, Jr.? I guess you realize it's harder to make these decisions in real-time as opposed to in hindsight.

I do agree that Lauri and Zach are better prospect than Ingram and Ball (who is not a bust). But they also included the #4 pick, two other FRPs including 2022 and multiple pick swaps. So you need to factor that into the calculation.

The Davis window closed about 2 years ago when Butler was traded. Had they drafted and traded more correctly and not spent the load on Wade, we would've had a lot of options and a roster that could appeal to AD. These are long-term results to long-term moves.

In the meantime, I would get a leg up and decide these things:

- Is Wendell the next Hakeem or should we shop him for a player that better compliments Lauri and Zach/Otto? (Or vice versa, do you shop Lauri?). This is what I mean by making an early smart decision. Next summer will be too late to shop Lauri if he plateaus, and Wendell will be mid-1st fodder if he's not the guy we want him to be.

- Are we willing to pay $25-30m ballpark for Otto's extension? Is it smart to talk now? I think so.

- DO NOT SIGN VETERAN BIG MEN WITH CAP-SPACE.

Pax likes to evaluate his players slowly and methodically. What's the point? The clock is running. You know when you have a Lebron, Kawhi or Rose on your hands. If it's a Deng or Kirk, don't sit there and twiddle your thumbs trying to build some kind of a NCAA Dream Team. Think how to compliment the other best pieces and fill the void.

I'll say this much... If you can sell WCJ high, it's not a bad idea. Centers are really not hard to get.

[cjbulls]

IMO Lauri and Zach smoke the skill and value of Ingram (seeking a max extension next summer) and Ball (basically a bust). We both know this year's draft is a crap-shoot; not a big difference between 4 and 7. But I wouldn't do that trade because I'd want Zach to compliment Davis.

I definitely don't think we should sign 30+ year old big men, unless they're vet min.

OK so you have ZERO ideas and want to hang onto the young guys. What are you, Pax, Jr.? I guess you realize it's harder to make these decisions in real-time as opposed to in hindsight.

I do agree that Lauri and Zach are better prospect than Ingram and Ball (who is not a bust). But they also included the #4 pick, two other FRPs including 2022 and multiple pick swaps. So you need to factor that into the calculation.

The Davis window closed about 2 years ago when Butler was traded. Had they drafted and traded more correctly and not spent the load on Wade, we would've had a lot of options and a roster that could appeal to AD. These are long-term results to long-term moves.

In the meantime, I would get a leg up and decide these things:

- Is Wendell the next Hakeem or should we shop him for a player that better compliments Lauri and Zach/Otto? (Or vice versa, do you shop Lauri?). This is what I mean by making an early smart decision. Next summer will be too late to shop Lauri if he plateaus, and Wendell will be mid-1st fodder if he's not the guy we want him to be.

- Are we willing to pay $25-30m ballpark for Otto's extension? Is it smart to talk now? I think so.

- DO NOT SIGN VETERAN BIG MEN WITH CAP-SPACE.

Pax likes to evaluate his players slowly and methodically. What's the point? The clock is running. You know when you have a Lebron, Kawhi or Rose on your hands. If it's a Deng or Kirk, don't sit there and twiddle your thumbs trying to build some kind of a NCAA Dream Team. Think how to compliment the other best pieces and fill the void.

I'll say this much... If you can sell WCJ high, it's not a bad idea. Centers are really not hard to get.

This offers no insight. Again, you go to hindsight and say well they should have kept Butler and then drafted someone good to trade for AD. Huh? That's not a real plan. Realistically, under that plan Butler walks this year and you don't have Lauri and Zach, and probably not WCJ either. So I don't see the wisdom there.

Again, you offer no insight other than trade WCJ if his value is high. To whom? For whom? You can't just make a trade happen. Teams don't willingly trade equal value players so there needs to be some impetus for a deal.

[MrSparkle]

OK so you have ZERO ideas and want to hang onto the young guys. What are you, Pax, Jr.? I guess you realize it's harder to make these decisions in real-time as opposed to in hindsight.

I do agree that Lauri and Zach are better prospect than Ingram and Ball (who is not a bust). But they also included the #4 pick, two other FRPs including 2022 and multiple pick swaps. So you need to factor that into the calculation.

The Davis window closed about 2 years ago when Butler was traded. Had they drafted and traded more correctly and not spent the load on Wade, we would've had a lot of options and a roster that could appeal to AD. These are long-term results to long-term moves.

In the meantime, I would get a leg up and decide these things:

- Is Wendell the next Hakeem or should we shop him for a player that better compliments Lauri and Zach/Otto? (Or vice versa, do you shop Lauri?). This is what I mean by making an early smart decision. Next summer will be too late to shop Lauri if he plateaus, and Wendell will be mid-1st fodder if he's not the guy we want him to be.

- Are we willing to pay $25-30m ballpark for Otto's extension? Is it smart to talk now? I think so.

- DO NOT SIGN VETERAN BIG MEN WITH CAP-SPACE.

Pax likes to evaluate his players slowly and methodically. What's the point? The clock is running. You know when you have a Lebron, Kawhi or Rose on your hands. If it's a Deng or Kirk, don't sit there and twiddle your thumbs trying to build some kind of a NCAA Dream Team. Think how to compliment the other best pieces and fill the void.

I'll say this much... If you can sell WCJ high, it's not a bad idea. Centers are really not hard to get.

This offers no insight. Again, you go to hindsight and say well they should have kept Butler and then drafted someone good to trade for AD. Huh? That's not a real plan. Realistically, under that plan Butler walks this year and you don't have Lauri and Zach, and probably not WCJ either. So I don't see the wisdom there.

Again, you offer no insight other than trade WCJ if his value is high. To whom? For whom? You can't just make a trade happen. Teams don't willingly trade equal value players so there needs to be some impetus for a deal.

I'd definitely try to capitalize on OKC's situation for example. I'll take their cap-load off them (Adams, Schroeder, Roberson) and their 1st pick if they take Felicio, Valentine, Dunn and a TPE. If WCJ is the needed tipping point to make them say YES and still get something else good back (maybe a future 1st), I'd lean towards yes.

I don't think Pax agrees even for a second to send WCJ out for that package. Auto nix.

[cjbulls]

The Davis window closed about 2 years ago when Butler was traded. Had they drafted and traded more correctly and not spent the load on Wade, we would've had a lot of options and a roster that could appeal to AD. These are long-term results to long-term moves.

In the meantime, I would get a leg up and decide these things:

- Is Wendell the next Hakeem or should we shop him for a player that better compliments Lauri and Zach/Otto? (Or vice versa, do you shop Lauri?). This is what I mean by making an early smart decision. Next summer will be too late to shop Lauri if he plateaus, and Wendell will be mid-1st fodder if he's not the guy we want him to be.

- Are we willing to pay $25-30m ballpark for Otto's extension? Is it smart to talk now? I think so.

- DO NOT SIGN VETERAN BIG MEN WITH CAP-SPACE.

Pax likes to evaluate his players slowly and methodically. What's the point? The clock is running. You know when you have a Lebron, Kawhi or Rose on your hands. If it's a Deng or Kirk, don't sit there and twiddle your thumbs trying to build some kind of a NCAA Dream Team. Think how to compliment the other best pieces and fill the void.

I'll say this much... If you can sell WCJ high, it's not a bad idea. Centers are really not hard to get.

This offers no insight. Again, you go to hindsight and say well they should have kept Butler and then drafted someone good to trade for AD. Huh? That's not a real plan. Realistically, under that plan Butler walks this year and you don't have Lauri and Zach, and probably not WCJ either. So I don't see the wisdom there.

Again, you offer no insight other than trade WCJ if his value is high. To whom? For whom? You can't just make a trade happen. Teams don't willingly trade equal value players so there needs to be some impetus for a deal.

I'd definitely try to capitalize on OKC's situation for example. I'll take their cap-load off them (Adams, Schroeder, Roberson) and their 1st pick if they take Felicio, Valentine, Dunn and a TPE. If WCJ is the needed tipping point to make them say YES and still get something else good back (maybe a future 1st), I'd lean towards yes.

I don't think Pax agrees even for a second to send WCJ out for that package. Auto nix.

Are you crazy? You would dump WCJ for Steven Adams and other terrible contracts (Schroeder/Roberson) plus the #23 pick plus a future OKC FRP? So the Bulls are now capped out with Steven Adams and no PG? Or is Schroeder your PG of the future then? Where is the value for you? The FRPs?

You do realize that trade isn't even allowed under the CBA. The Bulls are giving out 21 million and taking back 50 when they only have about 20 million in space.

[Leslie Forman]

- Is Wendell the next Hakeem or should we shop him for a player that better compliments Lauri and Zach/Otto? (Or vice versa, do you shop Lauri?). This is what I mean by making an early smart decision. Next summer will be too late to shop Lauri if he plateaus, and Wendell will be mid-1st fodder if he's not the guy we want him to be.

- Are we willing to pay $25-30m ballpark for Otto's extension? Is it smart to talk now? I think so.

- DO NOT SIGN VETERAN BIG MEN WITH CAP-SPACE.

Big men in general are overvalued unless they're some straight up Hall of Fame-level guy. If your two most cherished assets are a couple of big men who are clearly not, at worst, top-10-20ish guys, you are doing it wrong.