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Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread.

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#901 » by nate33 » Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:17 pm

tleikheen wrote:
It's looking like Wes is going to relegate Rui exclusively to the role of instant offense scorer on the 2nd unit because he doesn't trust Rui's b-ball IQ with the starters.


Such dog whistles on Ruis intelligence all the time. I choose to listen on all the praises coming out from his team mates on Rui's growth and it's easy to see what they're talking about . I havent seen anywhere anybody talking about their lack of trust playing with Rui because of his BBIQ ,arent those coaches who werent good enough to play themselves,the BBIQ guys.


Don't conflate intelligence with b-ball IQ. I have no idea if Rui is an intelligent guy or not, and I don't really care. I do know that he has lousy basketball instincts, which I am characterizing as "basketball IQ". Rui doesn't have a sense of where to be on help defense - when to leave his man or when to stay home, when to box out and when to go get the rebound. He also has extremely poor vision on offense. When he decides he is going to shoot, that's exactly what he does, never noticing a teammate in better position to score. This lack of basketball instinct is why he does not seem to help his team win despite being a physical specimen with above-average basketball skills (shooting, dribbling, agility, etc.) for his position.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#902 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:37 pm

nate33 wrote:
tleikheen wrote:
It's looking like Wes is going to relegate Rui exclusively to the role of instant offense scorer on the 2nd unit because he doesn't trust Rui's b-ball IQ with the starters.


Such dog whistles on Ruis intelligence all the time. I choose to listen on all the praises coming out from his team mates on Rui's growth and it's easy to see what they're talking about . I havent seen anywhere anybody talking about their lack of trust playing with Rui because of his BBIQ ,arent those coaches who werent good enough to play themselves,the BBIQ guys.


Don't conflate intelligence with b-ball IQ. I have no idea if Rui is an intelligent guy or not, and I don't really care. I do know that he has lousy basketball instincts, which I am characterizing as "basketball IQ". Rui doesn't have a sense of where to be on help defense - when to leave his man or when to stay home, when to box out and when to go get the rebound. He also has extremely poor vision on offense. When he decides he is going to shoot, that's exactly what he does, never noticing a teammate in better position to score. This lack of basketball instinct is why he does not seem to help his team win despite being a physical specimen with above-average basketball skills (shooting, dribbling, agility, etc.) for his position.


Lol the phrase "b-ball IQ" purposefully connotates that it is something separate from what most think of in terms of your every day intelligence.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#903 » by montestewart » Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:23 pm

CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:
nate33 wrote:
tleikheen wrote:
Such dog whistles on Ruis intelligence all the time. I choose to listen on all the praises coming out from his team mates on Rui's growth and it's easy to see what they're talking about . I havent seen anywhere anybody talking about their lack of trust playing with Rui because of his BBIQ ,arent those coaches who werent good enough to play themselves,the BBIQ guys.


Don't conflate intelligence with b-ball IQ. I have no idea if Rui is an intelligent guy or not, and I don't really care. I do know that he has lousy basketball instincts, which I am characterizing as "basketball IQ". Rui doesn't have a sense of where to be on help defense - when to leave his man or when to stay home, when to box out and when to go get the rebound. He also has extremely poor vision on offense. When he decides he is going to shoot, that's exactly what he does, never noticing a teammate in better position to score. This lack of basketball instinct is why he does not seem to help his team win despite being a physical specimen with above-average basketball skills (shooting, dribbling, agility, etc.) for his position.


Lol the phrase "b-ball IQ" purposefully connotates that it is something separate from what most think of in terms of your every day intelligence.

I'm good with that phrase. Think of the apparently generally incurious people you have encountered that somehow appear savants in some areas, or the generally smart people you know that seem like total morons in some areas. IQ in general seems a recklessly narrow and flawed measure, but I read "b-ball IQ" as "b-ball smarts" and some players definitely have more of it than others, possibly contrary to what standard IQ tests might show.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#904 » by doclinkin » Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:02 pm

montestewart wrote:
CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Don't conflate intelligence with b-ball IQ. I have no idea if Rui is an intelligent guy or not, and I don't really care. I do know that he has lousy basketball instincts, which I am characterizing as "basketball IQ". Rui doesn't have a sense of where to be on help defense - when to leave his man or when to stay home, when to box out and when to go get the rebound. He also has extremely poor vision on offense. When he decides he is going to shoot, that's exactly what he does, never noticing a teammate in better position to score. This lack of basketball instinct is why he does not seem to help his team win despite being a physical specimen with above-average basketball skills (shooting, dribbling, agility, etc.) for his position.


Lol the phrase "b-ball IQ" purposefully connotates that it is something separate from what most think of in terms of your every day intelligence.

I'm good with that phrase. Think of the apparently generally incurious people you have encountered that somehow appear savants in some areas, or the generally smart people you know that seem like total morons in some areas. IQ in general seems a recklessly narrow and flawed measure, but I read "b-ball IQ" as "b-ball smarts" and some players definitely have more of it than others, possibly contrary to what standard IQ tests might show.


Additionally players who are more cerebral about the game are often a step behind the action. They are out there caught thinking about the game instead of 'letting it come to them' among other cliches.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#905 » by gambitx777 » Thu Oct 20, 2022 7:04 pm

And if Rui excellent instant offence decent man defender off the bench guy. That's not a terrible nich to fall into. That role can keep a man in the league a long time.

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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#906 » by Dark Faze » Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:29 pm

gambitx777 wrote:And if Rui excellent instant offence decent man defender off the bench guy. That's not a terrible nich to fall into. That role can keep a man in the league a long time.

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The problem is he's not really instant offence. He's a moderate to low usage PF with meh defense and rebounding but strong offensive efficiency. A second option on the bench aside from days where he's feeling it and aggressive.

Instant offense players hunt shots and are bail out options at the end of shot clocks.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#907 » by nate33 » Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:34 pm

Dark Faze wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:And if Rui excellent instant offence decent man defender off the bench guy. That's not a terrible nich to fall into. That role can keep a man in the league a long time.

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The problem is he's not really instant offence. He's a moderate to low usage PF with meh defense and rebounding but strong offensive efficiency. A second option on the bench aside from days where he's feeling it and aggressive.

Instant offense players hunt shots and are bail out options at the end of shot clocks.

And even if he did pan out to be a good instant offense guy for the 2nd unit, that's hardly an accomplishment for the 9th pick in the draft.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#908 » by payitforward » Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:44 am

nate33 wrote:
tleikheen wrote:
It's looking like Wes is going to relegate Rui exclusively to the role of instant offense scorer on the 2nd unit because he doesn't trust Rui's b-ball IQ with the starters.


Such dog whistles on Ruis intelligence all the time. I choose to listen on all the praises coming out from his team mates on Rui's growth and it's easy to see what they're talking about . I havent seen anywhere anybody talking about their lack of trust playing with Rui because of his BBIQ ,arent those coaches who werent good enough to play themselves,the BBIQ guys.


Don't conflate intelligence with b-ball IQ. I have no idea if Rui is an intelligent guy or not, and I don't really care. I do know that he has lousy basketball instincts, which I am characterizing as "basketball IQ". Rui doesn't have a sense of where to be on help defense - when to leave his man or when to stay home, when to box out and when to go get the rebound. He also has extremely poor vision on offense. When he decides he is going to shoot, that's exactly what he does, never noticing a teammate in better position to score. This lack of basketball instinct is why he does not seem to help his team win despite being a physical specimen with above-average basketball skills (shooting, dribbling, agility, etc.) for his position.

Right. I suppose it's possible to be so dumb that you can't learn to play basketball, but surely it could only be a very small number of people! Certainly not someone who played pretty well in college & has had good games in the NBA.

So, BBIQ has nothing to do with "intelligence" in the more general use of the term. For that matter, even a word like "instincts" is only being used metaphorically.

Oh, & of course his teammates will say nice things about him -- & if they translate into his effectiveness on the court, that would be great!

So far in his career, Rui hasn't been a very good player. If you really think otherwise, that doesn't say anything about Rui, but it does indicate that you might be measuring "good" in some rather weird way.

Not that a single game means much, but -- for example -- did you think Rui played well against Indy last night?
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#909 » by payitforward » Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:58 am

Dark Faze wrote:
gambitx777 wrote:And if Rui excellent instant offence decent man defender off the bench guy. That's not a terrible nich to fall into. That role can keep a man in the league a long time.

The problem is he's not really instant offence. He's a moderate to low usage PF with meh defense and rebounding but strong offensive efficiency....

I don't know what you mean by "moderate," but Rui's usage was about 15% higher than average for a PF last year.

As to his offensive efficiency, for sure it was just slightly above average for a PF last year, but "strong"...? No, that's an exaggeration.

He has this year to prove himself. Period.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#910 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:46 am

Gotta say I really liked the look of our starting unit with Deni. I love the size and length of the frontcourt and the versatility defensively with Deni's switchability with Kuzma or on the perimeter. I like the role player mentality of Deni with his defense and passing and Morris with his steady leadership complimenting The Big 3. Offensively, Porzingis, Kuzma and Beal are going to be a handful for teams to contend with.

The 2nd unit is really what has me intrigued...

Wright has been a revelation, his length and assertiveness on the defensive end has been spectacular to watch. Barton looks to be the prototype veteran off the bench who comes in with intensity and the ability to change the momentum. Add in Gafford with his athleticism and shot blocking inside, and his developing chemistry with Barton. Kispert with his constant movement, cutting and long range shooting, and his college teammate Rui with his versatile offensive repertoire. This unit has a nice mix of offense and defense, the ability to play uptempo and agressive. Add further depth with Taj and Gill to occasionally mix in some added physicality, this group looks solid, and will be huge to keep us in games without dropoff, adding a boost when needed, and keeping our starters fresh.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#911 » by DCZards » Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:41 pm

I really like what Barton brings to the second team…and as a member of the end-of-game unit when appropriate. Will is a hard-nosed effort guy who leads by example. This team could use that and our youngsters will benefit from seeing it.

He’s also a poised vet. When he stepped to the line to shoot those key FTs at the end of the Indy game you just KNEW he was going to make them.

I also think his passing and playmaking are underrated….and he’s a very good 3pt shooter.

Most of us will continue to have a love-hate view of Will, but I think he’ll be an overall net positive. Maybe the best backup to Beal that we’ve had in many years.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#912 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:45 pm

Yeah, I like Barton too - particularly on the 2nd unit as the Beal replacement. My concern is that Wes will play him too many SF minutes to the detriment of Avdija and Kispert. Even if Barton is currently better than those guys, the fact is, he's a one-year rental and not part of the future. But as long as Avdija and Kispert get minutes, I'm happy with Barton.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#913 » by doclinkin » Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:20 pm

nate33 wrote:Yeah, I like Barton too - particularly on the 2nd unit as the Beal replacement. My concern is that Wes will play him too many SF minutes to the detriment of Avdija and Kispert. Even if Barton is currently better than those guys, the fact is, he's a one-year rental and not part of the future. But as long as Avdija and Kispert get minutes, I'm happy with Barton.


Avdija is starting even with Barton on the team. Kispert earned his way onto the floor last year. Unseld is a brainy guy, surrounded by analytical experts including the Godfather Dr Laurence Dean Oliver, master of stats. I fully expect Wes sees what everyone else does. Kispert has a nice effect on court, efficient shooting, smart cuts, easy to plug in to line-ups for actual instant offense and spacing. He doesn't need the ball to produce where Beal, Kuzma, and Barton all do. If Kispert's defense improves the real question would be if he cuts into starters minutes in some way. Not that he'd be starting, but giving the Coach an option to sub him in early and often.

I think Rui will likely be the odd man out if minutes need to be trimmed to fit one or the other. In game 1 he was running headfirst into traffic every trip down the court on offense. He may be more aggressive and assertive in pick-up games over the summer, looks good in practice, but who plays defense in summer ball? Coaches like their pet plays and sets, Rui was not playing team ball and found himself largely benched late in the game. In favor of 5th string forward Gill.

In addition KP is sure to need rest, Gafford has foul issues, I'd bet we see Kuzma as a small ball center at points in the same role as Porzingis (high post passer, shooter, roll threat). In that set we can run with 3 forwards or hell, 4 of them.

Wright -- point of attack defender
Kispert -- spacing, smart cuts
Deni -- playmaker, good defensive synergy with Wright
Rui -- spacing, aggressive offense
Kuz -- rebounding, playmaking, blow-by speed vs Centers and big forwards.

This would be a long strong defensive set with good spacing and switchability. Which helps Rui since he gets lost on any pick already. In this set Kuz can be aggressive and take that leadership role he envisions for himself. Knowing he will be a focal point means teams will load up on him, which frees up Kispert, Rui, and Wright for open shots.

At 31 with many minutes behind him, Barton is at an age where load management comes into play. His play style is to stay active and put pressure on defenders, high energy high activity. It is smart to transition him to a 6th man role, will prolong his career, and keep him healthy. He already had back issues on the trip to Japan.

There will be minutes to be played for everybody at some point. Except maybe Isaiah Todd and the G-Leaguers. Unless the team is smart and decides to strategically tank under the guise of getting developmental minutes for young players. Now that Beal is inked, there may be less pressure to prove to him we are a winning franchise, and while Ted can say all he wants about 'never tank' etc., that's nice, looks good in the news articles, but again, Wes and Tommy are both smart guys. If you see line-ups that make no sense and we give up big runs to an Indiana team that is missing both Centers, say, consider that it might not be an accident.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#914 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:20 pm

doclinkin wrote:Avdija is starting even with Barton on the team. Kispert earned his way onto the floor last year. Unseld is a brainy guy, surrounded by analytical experts including the Godfather Dr Laurence Dean Oliver, master of stats. I fully expect Wes sees what everyone else does.

You are right about this. So far, it's very difficult to find much fault in Unseld's rotations. Maybe he leans on Kuzma a little too much, but that's probably because he rightfully doesn't really trust Rui. Unseld was a bit slow in inserting Sato into the starting lineup last year, but not THAT slow. It took him 12 games when it probably should have taken maybe 8 or so. I think he handled Avdija well last year too, giving him generous minutes off the bench, but keeping him out of the Scouting Report by not starting him. And he played Kispert all the minutes that a rookie can expect on a team that considers themselves to be contending for the playoffs. He even resisted starting Harrell and stuck with Gafford as starter.

This year, he made the right call in starting Avdija. And even if he hasn't come around to starting Wright, he gave Wright more minutes than Morris in Game 1.

Perhaps I'm just not used to having a coach make the right decisions so much, so I'm bracing for the worst. Scott Brooks definitely would have started Barton at SF.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#915 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:01 pm

montestewart wrote:
CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Don't conflate intelligence with b-ball IQ. I have no idea if Rui is an intelligent guy or not, and I don't really care. I do know that he has lousy basketball instincts, which I am characterizing as "basketball IQ". Rui doesn't have a sense of where to be on help defense - when to leave his man or when to stay home, when to box out and when to go get the rebound. He also has extremely poor vision on offense. When he decides he is going to shoot, that's exactly what he does, never noticing a teammate in better position to score. This lack of basketball instinct is why he does not seem to help his team win despite being a physical specimen with above-average basketball skills (shooting, dribbling, agility, etc.) for his position.


Lol the phrase "b-ball IQ" purposefully connotates that it is something separate from what most think of in terms of your every day intelligence.

I'm good with that phrase. Think of the apparently generally incurious people you have encountered that somehow appear savants in some areas, or the generally smart people you know that seem like total morons in some areas. IQ in general seems a recklessly narrow and flawed measure, but I read "b-ball IQ" as "b-ball smarts" and some players definitely have more of it than others, possibly contrary to what standard IQ tests might show.


I am too. I think it's absurd that some think it's dog whistling to comment on a player's "b-ball IQ."
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#916 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:37 pm

montestewart wrote:
CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Don't conflate intelligence with b-ball IQ. I have no idea if Rui is an intelligent guy or not, and I don't really care. I do know that he has lousy basketball instincts, which I am characterizing as "basketball IQ". Rui doesn't have a sense of where to be on help defense - when to leave his man or when to stay home, when to box out and when to go get the rebound. He also has extremely poor vision on offense. When he decides he is going to shoot, that's exactly what he does, never noticing a teammate in better position to score. This lack of basketball instinct is why he does not seem to help his team win despite being a physical specimen with above-average basketball skills (shooting, dribbling, agility, etc.) for his position.


Lol the phrase "b-ball IQ" purposefully connotates that it is something separate from what most think of in terms of your every day intelligence.

I'm good with that phrase. Think of the apparently generally incurious people you have encountered that somehow appear savants in some areas, or the generally smart people you know that seem like total morons in some areas. IQ in general seems a recklessly narrow and flawed measure, but I read "b-ball IQ" as "b-ball smarts" and some players definitely have more of it than others, possibly contrary to what standard IQ tests might show.



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<<<about Rui Hachimura>>>

EC>> "I just want to know if he's Japanese AND colored or just Colored. Cuz if he's simply Japanese we ain't havin' no IQ discussion. Everyone knows Japanese are keenly intelligent"

MY THOUGHTS on Rui Hachimura
============================

If he's mentally susceptible to stress-related issues, might that also affect how easily coached he may be? He played several seasons at Gonzaga and this is his FOURTH NBA season. I think he's certainly a capable scorer. He seems worthy of a second contract but I'm wondering what his worth is on the open market?
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#917 » by payitforward » Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:04 pm

off topic post wch I've moved to the correct thread....
Spoiler:
nate33 wrote:And even if he (i.e. Rui) did pan out to be a good instant offense guy for the 2nd unit, that's hardly an accomplishment for the 9th pick in the draft.

Oh... I don't know about that! :) Here are the #9 picks from 2012-2021:

Andre Drummond
Trey Burke
Noah Vonleh
Frank Kaminsky
Jacob Poeltl
Dennis Smith, Jr.
Kevin Knox
Rui
Deni
Davion Mitchell

Drummond & Poeltl have been quite successful NBA players, & Deni looks to be on a good path. The other 7 not so much -- including Davion Mitchell, who had an awful rookie year & is 24.

It's easy to find tons of players taken much later in the same draft who have turned out to be far far better than the guy taken at 9. To take a random example, at least 15 of the 18 players picked from 10-27 in 2013 are much better than the guy who went #9. One of the 10 best players in the league went #27 that year. Oh, & the best player in the league went at 15.

Even the very best #9 picks in that decade -- Drummond, Poeltl & Deni -- aren't anywhere near as good as the 3-4 best guys taken below them in their drafts -- it's not even close: in some years, literally half the players taken from 25-46 are superior to the guy taken #9.

Hell, in 2015, Frank Kaminsky went at #9: but, 15 of the next 23 players have been far better players! H#ll, so have the guys taken #36, 40, 41 & 46.

In short, if Rui becomes a successful NBA player in any role at all, he'll be doing better than most guys picked #9 -- even though it seems quite clear by now that...

...at least 20 of the next 29 guys taken after Rui Hachimura are better than he is.

...which is also how it looked to me at the time....
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#918 » by dckingsfan » Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:59 pm

Reminder - this is the rotation thread about the players that we have and Wes' rotations and schemas.

Let's not derail this thread with couldashouldawoulda… lots of other threads to have that discussion.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#919 » by FAH1223 » Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:12 pm

I like Anthony Gill but I am looking forward to seeing Kispert play in those moments at end of games.
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Re: Line-ups, rotation, analysis thread. 

Post#920 » by doclinkin » Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:24 pm

dckingsfan wrote:Reminder - this is the rotation thread about the players that we have and Wes' rotations and schemas.

Let's not derail this thread with couldashouldawoulda… lots of other threads to have that discussion.


Appreciate dcking for picking up my slack as the People's Moderator. Hear hear!

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