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2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V

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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#901 » by Hitachi77 » Thu Apr 3, 2025 3:52 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Better not stretch him! That'd be insanely stupid! But if it happens, I guess it'll be just another black mark to add to our clown show front office's dubious resume of gross negligence!


If the Suns were about to get say a draft pick for O’Neale or Allen - add that pick to move Beal


Allen could probably pull a late 1st like 25th from Orlando. Or maybe the 24th pick from Atlanta, or the 27th pick from Brooklyn ( as they're way below the salary floor for next season.

And have a bunch of 1sts in the 19-27 range. Possibly even the 21st pick from the Jazz?? Or two early 2nds from Charlotte most likely.

O'neale could maybe pull 2 nds or possibly even a first from a team like Miami ( 22nd), ATL ( 24th), 26th from Brooklyn, a future 1st or multiple 2nds from Toronto or San Antonio, or New Orleans perhaps?

But I personally wouldn't choose to attach any picks just to move Beal. And besides, it's highly unlikely that any team will take Beal for a non premium mid to late first anyways.


Trading Beal as a huge expiring contract next year seems like the best play?

Edit: damn didn’t realize he had a PO for one more year. Ouch.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#902 » by Frank Lee » Thu Apr 3, 2025 4:56 am

I can’t seem to find an answer to this Q….. We can’t sign and trade somebody… But can’t another team sign and trade somebody to us? That’s kind of how I read it, and if so, changes the whole ball game…

Furthermore, I don’t understand this horrible thought of stretching Beal. He’s a redundant brittle liability ….And still top dog for bad contracts. That NTC is a huge obstacle. Dump him and move on. What exactly in Wihbia’s comments makes you think he gives a crap about the cap (or picks) 3 years from now?

If that was the first move of the off-season, and it should be, it would open up options, Including the MLE. Plus it will save millions. Anyone care to calculate it? Makes zero sense to keep him and impossible to trade him.



Furthermore, trading KD has become the Viagra for all the talking heads and trade junkies. Serious over valuation and ginned up demand. We got raped getting the Slim Sleeper, no point in getting raped getting rid of him. And if I was Houston, I wouldn’t gut that team. They are rolling at the right time. And sitting pretty for the future with almost certain (our) lotto picks. Oh yeah, and that thing called continuity. You know, the **** we had before this unpleasantness from ‘the last supper’.

That deal is going to come from left field imo. Especially after Houston folds their cards.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#903 » by garrick » Thu Apr 3, 2025 5:04 am

Frank Lee wrote:I can’t seem to find an answer to this Q….. We can’t sign and trade somebody… But can’t another team sign and trade somebody to us? That’s kind of how I read it, and if so, changes the whole ball game…

Furthermore, I don’t understand this horrible thought of stretching Beal. He’s a redundant brittle liability ….And still top dog for bad contracts. That NTC is a huge obstacle. Dump him and move on. What exactly in Wihbia’s comments makes you think he gives a crap about the cap (or picks) 3 years from now?

If that was the first move of the off-season, and it should be, it would open up options, Including the MLE. Plus it will save millions. Anyone care to calculate it? Makes zero sense to keep him and impossible to trade him.



Furthermore, trading KD has become the Viagra for all the talking heads and trade junkies. Serious over valuation and ginned up demand. We got raped getting the Slim Sleeper, no point in getting raped getting rid of him. And if I was Houston, I wouldn’t gut that team. They are rolling at the right time. And sitting pretty for the future with almost certain (our) lotto picks. Oh yeah, and that thing called continuity. You know, the **** we had before this unpleasantness from ‘the last supper’.

That deal is going to come from left field imo. Especially after Houston folds their cards.


I think we can't stretch Beal because we have already waived and stretched Little's contract and the amount would be above the allowed percentage.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#904 » by Frank Lee » Thu Apr 3, 2025 5:16 am

Blasphemy G, blasphemy… need some clarification there

Edit:
The stretch limit:

A team isn’t permitted to stretch a player’s salary if the portion of the team’s salary made up of waived players projects to exceed 15% of the salary cap in any future seasons.

For instance, with a $154,647,000 salary cap projected for 2025/26, a team carrying $24MM in dead money for that season wouldn’t have been permitted to use the stretch provision while waiving a player on an expiring contract prior to August 31, 2024. This rule doesn’t come into play often, since it’s extremely rare for a team to carry that much dead money on its books for a future season.




Damn, I think you may be right. :upset:
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#905 » by Frank Lee » Thu Apr 3, 2025 5:46 am

$50,203,930 x 2 / 5 = $20,081,572

Little = $3,107,143

Total stretched = $23,188,715

Projected cap = $154,600,00

15% = $23,190,000

:-o :-o
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#906 » by sunsbg » Thu Apr 3, 2025 5:54 am

Hitachi77 wrote:
KLEON wrote:So the Kings still gift giving


We could lose all but the final 2 games and still make the playin. Fun times.


Just like GoZ Sun Kings times. Both teams in competition who'll lose more.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#907 » by Revived » Thu Apr 3, 2025 6:16 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Read on Twitter


KD would look great on the Rockets for a very reasonable package of J Green/ Smith/ Whitmore/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX 27' 1st. :wink:


Woj probably would make a better GM than Ishbia or James Jones. Mainly because it’s not a high bar to cross.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#908 » by SunsRback4Good » Thu Apr 3, 2025 6:24 am

Revived wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Read on Twitter


KD would look great on the Rockets for a very reasonable package of J Green/ Smith/ Whitmore/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX 27' 1st. :wink:


Woj probably would make a better GM than Ishbia or James Jones. Mainly because it’s not a high bar to cross.


Woj has no GM expertise he would get slaughtered by JJ or Ishbia in that department. SMH
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#909 » by MrMiyagi » Thu Apr 3, 2025 6:49 am

BobbieL wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Read on Twitter


Still looking to try and find the link to this, but this would/could change a whole lot if true! :o


That just means Ishbia will stretch Beal - short term gain, long term pain

Or trade him for PG13 or Embiid

Those two might actually be worse than Beal at this point.
SHAZAM!

Suns traded Mikal Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder and 4 1st round picks and a swap so some Vegas Bookies would like us.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#910 » by garrick » Thu Apr 3, 2025 7:15 am

Revived wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Read on Twitter


KD would look great on the Rockets for a very reasonable package of J Green/ Smith/ Whitmore/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX 27' 1st. :wink:


Woj probably would make a better GM than Ishbia or James Jones. Mainly because it’s not a high bar to cross.

I dare say most of us would make better GM's than Ishbia right now due to knowing a whole lot more just by watching games and following the NBA over a decade or more.

Ishbia is an NBA casual who prior to purchasing the Suns probably didn't have enough time to watch a lot of NBA games being the CEO of a multi billion dollar company who makes impulsive decisions like he's playing NBA2K for the first time. :D
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#911 » by sunsbg » Thu Apr 3, 2025 7:49 am

garrick wrote:I dare say most of us would make better GM's than Ishbia right now due to knowing a whole lot more just by watching games and following the NBA over a decade or more.

Ishbia is an NBA casual who prior to purchasing the Suns probably didn't have enough time to watch a lot of NBA games being the CEO of a multi billion dollar company who makes impulsive decisions like he's playing NBA2K for the first time. :D


But then Saber watches every minute of Suns games, other teams too I guess, and he's approved every move done by Ishbia, so not sure if Ishbia starts watching more games will result in better decisions lol.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#912 » by Slim Charless » Thu Apr 3, 2025 7:58 am

MrMiyagi wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Read on Twitter


Still looking to try and find the link to this, but this would/could change a whole lot if true! :o


That just means Ishbia will stretch Beal - short term gain, long term pain

Or trade him for PG13 or Embiid

Those two might actually be worse than Beal at this point.


Hence the point of doing the trade. We can get Philly to give us assets for taking 1 of them off their hands.

I'm not 100% sure they'd move Embiid for Beal yet. They probably wanna see the draft lotto and how his surgery goes. However, I am positive we can move Beal for PG13....and force them to pay us for taking that deal for them.

Just need to balance what they'd give us for doing it and of course if Bradley even wants to go to Philly.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#913 » by Saberestar » Thu Apr 3, 2025 9:55 am

Frank Lee wrote:$50,203,930 x 2 / 5 = $20,081,572

Little = $3,107,143

Total stretched = $23,188,715

Projected cap = $154,600,00

15% = $23,190,000

:-o :-o

Your numbers are wrong. Beal will earn $110M in the next two years. That's why it's impossible to waive and stretch his contract for the Suns.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#914 » by Saberestar » Thu Apr 3, 2025 10:27 am

Gambo on his show yesterday:

Barring a miracle on this season we are gonna trade Beal and KD in the offseason.

He said again that he has talked to people around the league and the Rockets want to deal Jalen Green because of his salary. Dynamic scorer and very good player but they want his salary out if they are gonna bring another high salary player (KD).

He believes that the offer would be Jalen Green, Tari Eason, Jabari Smith and 1 FRP.

He said that is gonna be important to see how the Rockets play in the playoffs. An early exit would make them more aggressive about getting KD for sure.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#915 » by sunsbg » Thu Apr 3, 2025 10:32 am

Saberestar wrote:Gambo on his show yesterday:

Barring a miracle on this season we are gonna trade Beal and KD in the offseason.

He said again that he has talked to Pele around the league and the Rockets want to deal Jalen Green because of his salary. Dynamic scorer and very good player but they want his salary out if they are gonna bring another high salary player (KD).

He believes that the offer would be Jalen Green, Tari Eason, Jabari Smith and 1 FRP.

He said that is gonna be important to see how the Rockets play in the playoffs. An early exit would make them more aggressive about getting KD for sure.


If 1 FRP is our pick it looks like a good trade though Jalen Green reminds of less efficient Booker to me. So pairing them is like pairing Booker and Beal.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#916 » by Saberestar » Thu Apr 3, 2025 10:49 am

sunsbg wrote:
Saberestar wrote:Gambo on his show yesterday:

Barring a miracle on this season we are gonna trade Beal and KD in the offseason.

He said again that he has talked to Pele around the league and the Rockets want to deal Jalen Green because of his salary. Dynamic scorer and very good player but they want his salary out if they are gonna bring another high salary player (KD).

He believes that the offer would be Jalen Green, Tari Eason, Jabari Smith and 1 FRP.

He said that is gonna be important to see how the Rockets play in the playoffs. An early exit would make them more aggressive about getting KD for sure.


If 1 FRP is our pick it looks like a good trade though Jalen Green reminds of less efficient Booker to me. So pairing them is like pairing Booker and Beal.

Well, I guess that we would try to get one unprotected FRP but not sure which one.

Regarding Jalen Green and his fit next to Book. Look, he is a dynamic scorer and playmaker like we thought we were getting when trading for Beal.

The good news are that he is really young and athletic and he is in amazing physical condition. That's the opposite of Beal. We would have a freak athlete with him on the court and he would help us on fastbreak points (we are one of the lowest in the league), lobs and 3p scoring. His 3p volume is great and he can go to the rim as well.

If we get him Beal is gone and Allen can be traded too to avoid too many SGs on the roster.

Booker + Jalen Green as as 1-2 punch can be nice and I am not sure that the Rockets want to trade him because he is killing it this season.

The other young pieces...Tari Eason and Jabari would be great additions. I doubt they deal both, and we probably will have to take Whitmore in place of on of them.

The wildcard is Reed Sheppard. That guy could be the next Fredette or the next Trae Young. It's looking closer to Freddette for now...but his high upside is intriguing.
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#917 » by Ghost of Kleine » Thu Apr 3, 2025 11:22 am

Hitachi77 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
If the Suns were about to get say a draft pick for O’Neale or Allen - add that pick to move Beal


Allen could probably pull a late 1st like 25th from Orlando. Or maybe the 24th pick from Atlanta, or the 27th pick from Brooklyn ( as they're way below the salary floor for next season.

And have a bunch of 1sts in the 19-27 range. Possibly even the 21st pick from the Jazz?? Or two early 2nds from Charlotte most likely.

O'neale could maybe pull 2 nds or possibly even a first from a team like Miami ( 22nd), ATL ( 24th), 26th from Brooklyn, a future 1st or multiple 2nds from Toronto or San Antonio, or New Orleans perhaps?

But I personally wouldn't choose to attach any picks just to move Beal. And besides, it's highly unlikely that any team will take Beal for a non premium mid to late first anyways.


Trading Beal as a huge expiring contract next year seems like the best play?

Edit: damn didn’t realize he had a PO for one more year. Ouch.


Well, around the trade deadline most likely after he showcases himself ( hopefully healthy for a couple of months)! Then yes!

Simply a much better outcome than stretching him and having $20+ million in dead cap tied up on our books for the next 5 years, or $36+ million over the next 3 years. And not being able to make any significant moves even with him off the roster because of that cap hit.

Also not at all ideal giving giving up our very last two picks in the CLE firsts as that's likely what it'd cost just to officially get him off the roster when he doesn't/ hasn't played now, and we still suck without him playing.


We just shouldn't be giving up picks when we are already very limited with those first the next half decade just to move a contract that'll become a valuable expiring asset after next season.Because we already don't have hardly any assets left as it is.

And those assets represent cost controlled premium value currency in trades under this new punitive CBA.

If we end up trying to stretch Beal or attach picks just to trade him, It'll end up just another very shortsighted and egregious value exchange situation for us. I want us to start breaking that cycle of compounding loss just to make moves is all. :D
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#918 » by KdoubleDees23 » Thu Apr 3, 2025 11:34 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Hitachi77 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Allen could probably pull a late 1st like 25th from Orlando. Or maybe the 24th pick from Atlanta, or the 27th pick from Brooklyn ( as they're way below the salary floor for next season.

And have a bunch of 1sts in the 19-27 range. Possibly even the 21st pick from the Jazz?? Or two early 2nds from Charlotte most likely.

O'neale could maybe pull 2 nds or possibly even a first from a team like Miami ( 22nd), ATL ( 24th), 26th from Brooklyn, a future 1st or multiple 2nds from Toronto or San Antonio, or New Orleans perhaps?

But I personally wouldn't choose to attach any picks just to move Beal. And besides, it's highly unlikely that any team will take Beal for a non premium mid to late first anyways.


Trading Beal as a huge expiring contract next year seems like the best play?

Edit: damn didn’t realize he had a PO for one more year. Ouch.


Yes! Much better than stretching him and having 20 million in dead cap tied up on our books for the next 5 years, or 36 million over the next 3 years. And not being able to make any significant moves even with him off the roster because of that cap hit.

Also in not giving giving up our very last two picks in the CLE firsts as that's likely what it'd cost just to officially get him off the roster when he doesn't/ hasn't played now, and we still suck without him playing.


We shouldn't be giving up picks when we are already very limited with those first the next half decade just to move a contract that'll become a valuable expiring asset after next season.
Because we already don't have hardly any assets left as it is.

It'd end up just another very shortsighted and egregious value assessment situation for us. I want us to start breaking that cycle of compounding loss just to make moves is all. :D



TBH we don't need Draft Picks. We need players who have proven they can play. The Suns have probably developed 3-4 draft picks since 2010. Thats not good odds, especially a later pick.

Go get players who can fill a role and add depth
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#919 » by Ghost of Kleine » Thu Apr 3, 2025 12:11 pm

KdoubleDees23 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Hitachi77 wrote:
Trading Beal as a huge expiring contract next year seems like the best play?

Edit: damn didn’t realize he had a PO for one more year. Ouch.


Yes! Much better than stretching him and having 20 million in dead cap tied up on our books for the next 5 years, or 36 million over the next 3 years. And not being able to make any significant moves even with him off the roster because of that cap hit.

Also in not giving giving up our very last two picks in the CLE firsts as that's likely what it'd cost just to officially get him off the roster when he doesn't/ hasn't played now, and we still suck without him playing.


We shouldn't be giving up picks when we are already very limited with those first the next half decade just to move a contract that'll become a valuable expiring asset after next season.
Because we already don't have hardly any assets left as it is.

It'd end up just another very shortsighted and egregious value assessment situation for us. I want us to start breaking that cycle of compounding loss just to make moves is all. :D



TBH we don't need Draft Picks. We need players who have proven they can play. The Suns have probably developed 3-4 draft picks since 2010. Thats not good odds, especially a later pick.

Go get players who can fill a role and add depth


I hear what you're saying man! And do understand that line of thinking by some. But our reality is just different from everyone else's because our owner decided to give up basically all of our assets ( picks/ young talent) and fap space for this aging and failed super team.

We have no cap flexibility and can't really sign anyone beyond vet minimum options and two way undrafted players due to being a 2nd apron team and the restrictions we're under currently.

That's the first reason that draft picks are important. Because they allow us to actually circumvent those restrictions and add talent and positional versatility and depth to our roster that we otherwise couldn't via free agency or trade as a 2nd apron team.

The next reason those picks are critically important now ( under this new CBA era were in) is because they're the primary premium currency for teams in trades.

This is because they offer up to 4 yrs of low scale salary cost control for teams, and for teams like us with no cap flexibility carrying large max contracts eating up the majority of our payroll, those critically balance out our roster with financial variance.

The next reason those draft picks are critically important is in two parts, first is their ability to add young athletic, physical, competitive/ hungry, aggressive (something to prove) players that are energizers to our aging of5 apathetic casually indifferent team as exemplified by Dunns' and Osos' energizing impact for us.

And the 2nd part is in developing key young core players that can either develop and take over for Booker and KD as they obviously won't be around forever, maybe a few more years at most then we'd be rebuilding anyways.

And/ or to create desirable trade assets to attach to bigger vet salaries for key roster upgrades or star acquisitions when some do become available in trades or in free agency because we'd have cost control and balance throughout our roster to actually make legitimate moves.

Lastly, the line of thinking that we should avoid the draft and only go with vet/ tenured players that have been in the league and have multiple years of experience. The problems with this strategy we've seen play out for multiple seasons now, and should at least recognize that it repeatedly hasn't worked out for us.

Vet players often even the low scale journeyman players have all got their bag and just do what they need to and go through the motions rather than playing hard consistently. This is because they already got paid and aren't hungry anymore or feel like they have anything to prove after being in the league for multiple years.

Look at the teams with the best record at the top of the league and playoff seedings for evidence of this difference/ success in roster building strategy. Now look at our outcome constantly avoiding the draft and opting for older vet options and how that's paid off for us! It's time for a drastic change in approach.

Lastly, we shouldn't draft young players because we suck at talent identification and acquisition as an argument. This is honestly just a poor logically flawed argument position because prior to Ishbia, we had a skeleton crew of bottom tier no names .

Also, we had a GM in James Jones who openly admitted to not even caring about/ investing any time in/ utilizing the draft, so of course we're not going to do well at pulling high level talent if the money and work isn't put in to get high end results. You get what you pay for and you get out what you put into things. So did we!

But now, the money/ spending is there, the higher tier quality scouting options are there, and the payoff outcome for us will now be much different and better obviously! :D
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Re: 2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V 

Post#920 » by Frank Lee » Thu Apr 3, 2025 12:14 pm

Saberestar wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:$50,203,930 x 2 / 5 = $20,081,572

Little = $3,107,143

Total stretched = $23,188,715

Projected cap = $154,600,00

15% = $23,190,000

:-o :-o

Your numbers are wrong. Beal will earn $110M in the next two years. That's why it's impossible to waive and stretch his contract for the Suns.



Yes you are right little Mat, that math doesn’t work …. But it still can be done.

Buyouts:

While the stretch provision regulates when money is paid out, it doesn’t prevent teams and players from negotiating a reduced salary as part of a buyout agreement.

For instance, let’s say a player who has an $18MM expiring contract for 2024/25 agrees in August to give up $3MM in a buyout. As a result of that buyout agreement, his team could stretch his remaining salary and end up with cap hits of $5MM for three seasons (through ’26/27) rather than $6MM.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/08/hoops-rumors-glossary-stretch-provision-3.html



Beal gives up 10 mill and can go play wherever he wants. Just make it clear to him he’s not playing (rehabbing?) here, ever. He will accommodate and end up in Florida for the minimum.
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