'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[toodles23]

He says the opposite, Doc - "There's no doubt the Cavs aren't putting him in a great position to be successful"

Yeah, I probably should have worded it better.

[Doctor MJ]

I think now, even given circumstance, I'd call this series a challenge. And its a beneficial matchup for Golden State as well, despite circumstances. They had 2 really favorable matchups early then once faced with 2 actually good teams were well challenged.

Was it a challenge before Game 5 to you? I mean, two blowout home wins and then taking one of the two road games by pulling away down the stretch seems about all you'd expect from a first round victory.

To me it will come down to what happens after now. If Golden State wins Game 6 similar to Game 4, the Cavs really don't get to make an argument that they were "close" to a championship.

No, but a relatively solid road win in Oracle to force at least 6 games made it one. I'd generally call a 4-5 game series non competitive, over that its close.

Right, quite possibly the difference between in being a challenge or not for you is about a star player getting suspended, and if you looked at any GOAT candidate historical team that only got taken to 6 games in a series for that reason, I'd doubt you'd think it makes them fundamentally suspect.

He is, but I don't really see many coaches who aren't. I'm not sure what's different from him to any other coach in general demeanor, I haven't seen anything to suggest it honestly.

The NBA is filled with teams that essentially glue would-be glue guys to the bench and fanbases wondering furiously why they can't ever get depth no matter who they bring in. What Kerr has achieved in the synergy of his club blows my mind. He is, without question, the best CEO candidate I've seen amongst NBA coaches.

Well, 2 things:
1. He was a GM.
2. I still don't see what he's doing differently. He stuck Iggy in the starters, which I think any of us would have done. Coaches at this level rarely make a panic move. I don't see anything he did or has done with the rotation that's very special.

Well maybe we just aren't going to be able to come together understanding here.

I'm in awe of the way he and his staff showed up and cured seemingly everything that was dysfunctional about that team and franchise over a single off-season. I'll acknowledge that there's luck involved, but the contrast is stark, and this is not something you expect with the appearance of any coaching figure, let alone one who had never coached before on any level.

[bondom34]

Alright, I'm definitely not seeing it the same, but to each his own.

[PaulieWal]

Alright, I'm definitely not seeing it the same, but to each his own.

I am with you here. Kerr has been a good coach from Day 1 on the job but I think he gets overrated a bit. This is probably the most stacked team in the history of the league with two GOAT 3 point shooters who can go 2K mode within seconds.

Of course, we can't minimize Kerr. MJ had the same roster pretty much. Kerr unlocked that offense and that's why he's a top 3-5 coach in the league but I don't think he's some sort of revolutionary genius like some think he is (not pointing at you Doc).

[JordansBulls]

Alright, I'm definitely not seeing it the same, but to each his own.

He is better than JVG and Mark Jackson though.

[RSCD3_]

Is it too far of a stretch to say that kyrie has outplayed curry.



I know box scores dont tell anywhere near the full story especially FG% wise but still...

[Doctor MJ]

I know box scores dont tell anywhere near the full story especially FG% wise but still...

To be honest it's less important to me who is more impressive than it is to acknowledge that the defenses are guarding each completely differently, and the Cavs are working desperately to not let Curry see an opening anywhere on the court for more than a split second while the Warriors are pretty content to let Kyrie be his iso-ball self.

When Kyrie plays like he did yesterday that is indisputably awesome, and there's no reason it can't be more impressive than what Curry's done, but it makes no sense to talk about Curry "failing to show up like Kyrie" given that he's facing vastly tougher defensive focus.

[kayess]

I know box scores dont tell anywhere near the full story especially FG% wise but still...

To be honest it's less important to me who is more impressive than it is to acknowledge that the defenses are guarding each completely differently, and the Cavs are working desperately to not let Curry see an opening anywhere on the court for more than a split second while the Warriors are pretty content to let Kyrie be his iso-ball self.

When Kyrie plays like he did yesterday that is indisputably awesome, and there's no reason it can't be more impressive than what Curry's done, but it makes no sense to talk about Curry "failing to show up like Kyrie" given that he's facing vastly tougher defensive focus.

Curry's been getting some really wide open looks this series Doc, because while you're right about the Cavs' gameplan, they've simply failed to execute far too many times to give Curry a pass, imo.

This doesn't mean he hasn't been impactful - but it does mean that relative to the looks he's gotten, he should be playing better.

Besides, the Cavs aren't even close to the best defensive team the Warriors have faced, AND in the RS, this was literally what every team was trying to do to Curry - why is he failing now? OKC, sure, whatever, they had length and all that. But the Cavs don't have anywhere near the defensive talent on OKC.

It's fine to say fatigue, or some other factor, which is a totally acceptable notion - but then it behooves us to do the same for when other superstars similarly underperform - Durant's shocking shooting, for example.

[Doctor MJ]

I know box scores dont tell anywhere near the full story especially FG% wise but still...

To be honest it's less important to me who is more impressive than it is to acknowledge that the defenses are guarding each completely differently, and the Cavs are working desperately to not let Curry see an opening anywhere on the court for more than a split second while the Warriors are pretty content to let Kyrie be his iso-ball self.

When Kyrie plays like he did yesterday that is indisputably awesome, and there's no reason it can't be more impressive than what Curry's done, but it makes no sense to talk about Curry "failing to show up like Kyrie" given that he's facing vastly tougher defensive focus.

Curry's been getting some really wide open looks this series Doc, because while you're right about the Cavs' gameplan, they've simply failed to execute far too many times to give Curry a pass, imo.

This doesn't mean he hasn't been impactful - but it does mean that relative to the looks he's gotten, he should be playing better.

Besides, the Cavs aren't even close to the best defensive team the Warriors have faced, AND in the RS, this was literally what every team was trying to do to Curry - why is he failing now? OKC, sure, whatever, they had length and all that. But the Cavs don't have anywhere near the defensive talent on OKC.

It's fine to say fatigue, or some other factor, which is a totally acceptable notion - but then it behooves us to do the same for when other superstars similarly underperform - Durant's shocking shooting, for example.

Let's not pretend Curry's shooting inefficiently here. He's below his normal efficiency but well above any sane standards, and as you said he could easily be higher with a few good bounces. Where Curry is struggling is in getting enough looks to hit normal volume levels.

Re: Not best defensive team Warriors have faced. Yeah, and the Warriors offense is doing fine, thanks for asking. Curry's volume is off, but given what Cleveland did to Toronto's offense, Golden State hitting 110 ORtg in a 5 game sample where one of the game missed Green, it makes no sense to see Cleveland as having massive success here.

It's as I keep saying: Every team gets to pick their poison to some extent. Cleveland is working really freaking hard to not let Curry be the reason why they are losing, but it opens opportunities for others, and on the whole all you can say is that they've done okay. Somehow when people look at all that they see Curry choking and being carried by the greatest supporting cast in history rather than recognizing that this is how team basketball works.

Again, not saying Curry is above criticism here, but I just heard a talking head on the radio say he's only been the 6th best player in this series, and people here keep talking like me defending Curry is saying this is the GOAT performance when all I"m saying is that the criticism that literally put others in the series over them have issues that are very predictable based on classic fan-logic.

[kayess]

To be honest it's less important to me who is more impressive than it is to acknowledge that the defenses are guarding each completely differently, and the Cavs are working desperately to not let Curry see an opening anywhere on the court for more than a split second while the Warriors are pretty content to let Kyrie be his iso-ball self.

When Kyrie plays like he did yesterday that is indisputably awesome, and there's no reason it can't be more impressive than what Curry's done, but it makes no sense to talk about Curry "failing to show up like Kyrie" given that he's facing vastly tougher defensive focus.

Curry's been getting some really wide open looks this series Doc, because while you're right about the Cavs' gameplan, they've simply failed to execute far too many times to give Curry a pass, imo.

This doesn't mean he hasn't been impactful - but it does mean that relative to the looks he's gotten, he should be playing better.

Besides, the Cavs aren't even close to the best defensive team the Warriors have faced, AND in the RS, this was literally what every team was trying to do to Curry - why is he failing now? OKC, sure, whatever, they had length and all that. But the Cavs don't have anywhere near the defensive talent on OKC.

It's fine to say fatigue, or some other factor, which is a totally acceptable notion - but then it behooves us to do the same for when other superstars similarly underperform - Durant's shocking shooting, for example.

Let's not pretend Curry's shooting inefficiently here. He's below his normal efficiency but well above any sane standards, and as you said he could easily be higher with a few good bounces. Where Curry is struggling is in getting enough looks to hit normal volume levels.

Re: Not best defensive team Warriors have faced. Yeah, and the Warriors offense is doing fine, thanks for asking. Curry's volume is off, but given what Cleveland did to Toronto's offense, Golden State hitting 110 ORtg in a 5 game sample where one of the game missed Green, it makes no sense to see Cleveland as having massive success here.

It's as I keep saying: Every team gets to pick their poison to some extent. Cleveland is working really freaking hard to not let Curry be the reason why they are losing, but it opens opportunities for others, and on the whole all you can say is that they've done okay. Somehow when people look at all that they see Curry choking and being carried by the greatest supporting cast in history rather than recognizing that this is how team basketball works.

Again, not saying Curry is above criticism here, but I just heard a talking head on the radio say he's only been the 6th best player in this series, and people here keep talking like me defending Curry is saying this is the GOAT performance when all I"m saying is that the criticism that literally put others in the series over them have issues that are very predictable based on classic fan-logic.

I didn't even come close to implying he's shooting inefficiently though (I should have used a different word than "failing" though - meant to say underperforming, which is more consistent with the tone of my post anyway) - I said relative to the looks he's been getting, he should be playing better, making more of those open looks. It's not like it's just in this series too - he's been missing those at a higher rate than his average since OKC.

Yes, a 110 ORTG, which is 4.5 behind where they were in the RS. Nobody here is saying Golden State isn't playing well, or that Cleveland is having massive success - it makes even less sense to say that the posts here are saying this.

Cleveland's working really freaking hard, and they're FAILING. They've left him completely wide open far more than is expected. Nowhere did I, or pretty much anyone say all we can see is Curry choking - he's underperforming relative to his RS, a RS where he posted possibly the GOAT peak, against defenses that were trying to do the same thing. Why isn't he able to replicate it to the same extent? Is this not a valid question?

Posing this question does not devalue anything that Curry's doing in these Finals, or what he's done so far. It's essentially asking, is there some fundamental characteristic of his play, or the way that his impact is achieved, that doesn't translate as well to the playoffs? Is this due to fatigue instead?

Your last paragraph - you heard a talking head on the radio, but you're directing criticism here? No one in here is saying, or is even implying that Curry's the 6th best player in the series, lol. I think you're way too defensive of Curry here - everyone should still have them #1 on their ballots, unless they see, or have seen something in the playoffs that tells them he can't replicate the impact there (and frankly, I don't see it or don't see enough evidence to suggest it at the moment - except for his missing open shots and 1v1 defense)

[Doctor MJ]

Curry's been getting some really wide open looks this series Doc, because while you're right about the Cavs' gameplan, they've simply failed to execute far too many times to give Curry a pass, imo.

This doesn't mean he hasn't been impactful - but it does mean that relative to the looks he's gotten, he should be playing better.

Besides, the Cavs aren't even close to the best defensive team the Warriors have faced, AND in the RS, this was literally what every team was trying to do to Curry - why is he failing now? OKC, sure, whatever, they had length and all that. But the Cavs don't have anywhere near the defensive talent on OKC.

It's fine to say fatigue, or some other factor, which is a totally acceptable notion - but then it behooves us to do the same for when other superstars similarly underperform - Durant's shocking shooting, for example.

Let's not pretend Curry's shooting inefficiently here. He's below his normal efficiency but well above any sane standards, and as you said he could easily be higher with a few good bounces. Where Curry is struggling is in getting enough looks to hit normal volume levels.

Re: Not best defensive team Warriors have faced. Yeah, and the Warriors offense is doing fine, thanks for asking. Curry's volume is off, but given what Cleveland did to Toronto's offense, Golden State hitting 110 ORtg in a 5 game sample where one of the game missed Green, it makes no sense to see Cleveland as having massive success here.

It's as I keep saying: Every team gets to pick their poison to some extent. Cleveland is working really freaking hard to not let Curry be the reason why they are losing, but it opens opportunities for others, and on the whole all you can say is that they've done okay. Somehow when people look at all that they see Curry choking and being carried by the greatest supporting cast in history rather than recognizing that this is how team basketball works.

Again, not saying Curry is above criticism here, but I just heard a talking head on the radio say he's only been the 6th best player in this series, and people here keep talking like me defending Curry is saying this is the GOAT performance when all I"m saying is that the criticism that literally put others in the series over them have issues that are very predictable based on classic fan-logic.

I didn't even come close to implying he's shooting inefficiently though (I should have used a different word than "failing" though - meant to say underperforming, which is more consistent with the tone of my post anyway) - I said relative to the looks he's been getting, he should be playing better, making more of those open looks. It's not like it's just in this series too - he's been missing those at a higher rate than his average since OKC.

Yes, a 110 ORTG, which is 4.5 behind where they were in the RS. Nobody here is saying Golden State isn't playing well, or that Cleveland is having massive success - it makes even less sense to say that the posts here are saying this.

Cleveland's working really freaking hard, and they're FAILING. They've left him completely wide open far more than is expected. Nowhere did I, or pretty much anyone say all we can see is Curry choking - he's underperforming relative to his RS, a RS where he posted possibly the GOAT peak, against defenses that were trying to do the same thing. Why isn't he able to replicate it to the same extent? Is this not a valid question?

Posing this question does not devalue anything that Curry's doing in these Finals, or what he's done so far. It's essentially asking, is there some fundamental characteristic of his play, or the way that his impact is achieved, that doesn't translate as well to the playoffs? Is this due to fatigue instead?

Your last paragraph - you heard a talking head on the radio, but you're directing criticism here? No one in here is saying, or is even implying that Curry's the 6th best player in the series, lol. I think you're way too defensive of Curry here - everyone should still have them #1 on their ballots, unless they see, or have seen something in the playoffs that tells them he can't replicate the impact there (and frankly, I don't see it or don't see enough evidence to suggest it at the moment - except for his missing open shots and 1v1 defense)

GSP, who is posting in this thread, said in the Curry thread that Curry was only the #5 guy in the series. Can't remember if it was before the last game or not.

I probably shouldn't have mentioned radio folks, because none of us respect those guys very much, but I wanted to anchor it in something real and I didn't really want to call out any individual posters here.

Regardless, the bottom line is that you shouldn't be under the illusion that the way Curry is getting blasted right now is in any way limited merely to his GOAT regular season standards, or only among casual fans. The knives are out like crazy everywhere I look and the points I"m making here quite honestly I"m not seeing anyone anywhere saying despite the fact to me they seem like what every knowledgeable fan should be saying in response to the literal criticisms being bandied about.

Obviously what we're talking about here to some degree is polarization. If your dominant feeling is that Curry is disappointing you then you're not likely to spend a lot of time defending him when someone makes outlandish criticisms toward Curry. That's understandable, what's not understandable to me is why I feel like i'm about the only one talking about how all of this can be largely explained simply by each team's series strategy, which to me is the most interesting aspect to study.

[kayess]

Let's not pretend Curry's shooting inefficiently here. He's below his normal efficiency but well above any sane standards, and as you said he could easily be higher with a few good bounces. Where Curry is struggling is in getting enough looks to hit normal volume levels.

Re: Not best defensive team Warriors have faced. Yeah, and the Warriors offense is doing fine, thanks for asking. Curry's volume is off, but given what Cleveland did to Toronto's offense, Golden State hitting 110 ORtg in a 5 game sample where one of the game missed Green, it makes no sense to see Cleveland as having massive success here.

It's as I keep saying: Every team gets to pick their poison to some extent. Cleveland is working really freaking hard to not let Curry be the reason why they are losing, but it opens opportunities for others, and on the whole all you can say is that they've done okay. Somehow when people look at all that they see Curry choking and being carried by the greatest supporting cast in history rather than recognizing that this is how team basketball works.

Again, not saying Curry is above criticism here, but I just heard a talking head on the radio say he's only been the 6th best player in this series, and people here keep talking like me defending Curry is saying this is the GOAT performance when all I"m saying is that the criticism that literally put others in the series over them have issues that are very predictable based on classic fan-logic.

I didn't even come close to implying he's shooting inefficiently though (I should have used a different word than "failing" though - meant to say underperforming, which is more consistent with the tone of my post anyway) - I said relative to the looks he's been getting, he should be playing better, making more of those open looks. It's not like it's just in this series too - he's been missing those at a higher rate than his average since OKC.

Yes, a 110 ORTG, which is 4.5 behind where they were in the RS. Nobody here is saying Golden State isn't playing well, or that Cleveland is having massive success - it makes even less sense to say that the posts here are saying this.

Cleveland's working really freaking hard, and they're FAILING. They've left him completely wide open far more than is expected. Nowhere did I, or pretty much anyone say all we can see is Curry choking - he's underperforming relative to his RS, a RS where he posted possibly the GOAT peak, against defenses that were trying to do the same thing. Why isn't he able to replicate it to the same extent? Is this not a valid question?

Posing this question does not devalue anything that Curry's doing in these Finals, or what he's done so far. It's essentially asking, is there some fundamental characteristic of his play, or the way that his impact is achieved, that doesn't translate as well to the playoffs? Is this due to fatigue instead?

Your last paragraph - you heard a talking head on the radio, but you're directing criticism here? No one in here is saying, or is even implying that Curry's the 6th best player in the series, lol. I think you're way too defensive of Curry here - everyone should still have them #1 on their ballots, unless they see, or have seen something in the playoffs that tells them he can't replicate the impact there (and frankly, I don't see it or don't see enough evidence to suggest it at the moment - except for his missing open shots and 1v1 defense)

GSP, who is posting in this thread, said in the Curry thread that Curry was only the #5 guy in the series. Can't remember if it was before the last game or not.

I probably shouldn't have mentioned radio folks, because none of us respect those guys very much, but I wanted to anchor it in something real and I didn't really want to call out any individual posters here.

Regardless, the bottom line is that you shouldn't be under the illusion that the way Curry is getting blasted right now is in any way limited merely to his GOAT regular season standards, or only among casual fans. The knives are out like crazy everywhere I look and the points I"m making here quite honestly I"m not seeing anyone anywhere saying despite the fact to me they seem like what every knowledgeable fan should be saying in response to the literal criticisms being bandied about.

Obviously what we're talking about here to some degree is polarization. If your dominant feeling is that Curry is disappointing you then you're not likely to spend a lot of time defending him when someone makes outlandish criticisms toward Curry. That's understandable, what's not understandable to me is why I feel like i'm about the only one talking about how all of this can be largely explained simply by each team's series strategy, which to me is the most interesting aspect to study.

I'm not sure if this is within the rules - but GSP has an extremely obvious agenda and probably shouldn't be taken seriously. I thought he was just an extremely impassioned fan at first, but a recent post of his is tantamount to a tacit admission of his trolling (or willful ignorance). If your points were addressed to criticism like that mostly, fair enough, but that's not the prevailing thought on this forum, I think.

Honestly, it's also probably a matter of perception - everyone who's a regular poster is smart enough not to overreact, and therefore don't really take any of the criticism seriously. Another point - the few crazies who have blasted Curry may have been what stuck with you, but there have been threads pointing out the lack of sever, talking head backlash against Curry (the same way LeBron would be for example, if he similarly underperformed compared to his usual standard). So the lack of responses isn't that - it's that people haven't really seen criticism of Curry on the media to generate a response like that.

I honestly haven't seen outlandish criticism of Curry, but he'll either be defended, or those criticisms ignored when it comes to that. This forum's done it time and again, I don't see why that won't continue. From my POV, there's no need to defend Curry, just to contextualize his numbers - he has massive impact when he's out there, whether his jumper's falling or not - but I feel the high (in comparison to league avg. not compared to himself) TS%, for example, needs context.

On strategy: teams have been trying to trap Curry all season long. He put up great numbers regardless, near 30 ppg on 70% TS. The Cavs have tried to do the same thing, with inferior defenders (and execution) - why is there such a big drop off? This isn't in disagreement with anything you're saying - he's still having a MASSIVE impact, because he has to be defended the way he is. But he's seen it all season long, and the drop in box score numbers is precipitous. Is it because the Cavs are doing it more often than the rest of the league? Because they sure as hell aren't doing it better, and Curry still gets to do what he wants.

Whether it's due to fatigue, or due to some other reason, I don't think any of that changes the fact that Curry's off-ball impact is massive (though was it lorak who showed he has been handling the ball more?). The aim of these discussions have always been to enlighten, and I think it's in good faith when people inquire further into the nature of a player's impact and ability in order to assess him better. Trolls like GSP shouldn't factor into this equation, IMO.

[bondom34]

Alright, I'm definitely not seeing it the same, but to each his own.

He is better than JVG and Mark Jackson though.

And neither of them are employed.

[lorak]

Is it too far of a stretch to say that kyrie has outplayed curry.



I know box scores dont tell anywhere near the full story especially FG% wise but still...

Curry has better TS% and plays less minutes so his pts and ast numbers are inflated by that in comparison to KI. And the most important thing - Steph is way better defensively as Irving is probably the worst defender in these finals (sportVU says opponents shot something like 60% vs him).

[therealbig3]

Well, Kyrie has played well in 3/5 games, while Curry has played well in 1/5 games. And in one of those games, it wasn't just a great game from Kyrie, it was one of the best offensive performances ever.

Kyrie has absolutely outplayed Curry, it's not even close imo.

[therealbig3]

Am I also the only one that doesn't have an issue with Curry's defense? Kyrie Irving was lighting everyone up, not just Curry. Klay Thompson was getting abused as well.

And most stats say that Curry usually holds his matchup well below their averages. Does he get help from his defense? Yeah, sure. Everyone does. But I don't ever see him get abused unless the opposing player is just having one of those nights. He usually holds his own and plays solidly above average defense.

[lorak]

Well, Kyrie has played well in 3/5 games, while Curry has played well in 1/5 games. And in one of those games, it wasn't just a great game from Kyrie, it was one of the best offensive performances ever.

Kyrie has absolutely outplayed Curry, it's not even close imo.

Only if you don't look at defense.

Also, Irving was great in G5 because he was GOAT hot but that same iso style of play was deadly for Cavs in previous games. So while he might have better individual numbers because of that it doesn't mean he played better.

[kayess]

I just rewatched all the shots Kyrie made. Thompson had excellent contests nearly every time he was on Kyrie. Curry had a couple good ones too.

[E-Balla]

Is it too far of a stretch to say that kyrie has outplayed curry.



I know box scores dont tell anywhere near the full story especially FG% wise but still...

The boxscore doesn't tell the full story - looking at this pic you'd think Steph barely got outplayed but I think Kyrie's killing him. If anything it's a stretch to say Curry hasn't been outplayed.

[E-Balla]

Well, Kyrie has played well in 3/5 games, while Curry has played well in 1/5 games. And in one of those games, it wasn't just a great game from Kyrie, it was one of the best offensive performances ever.

Kyrie has absolutely outplayed Curry, it's not even close imo.

Only if you don't look at defense.

Also, Irving was great in G5 because he was GOAT hot but that same iso style of play was deadly for Cavs in previous games. So while he might have better individual numbers because of that it doesn't mean he played better.

Curry's been terrible defensively...