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The Official Lin Net Thread

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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#921 » by bws94 » Wed Sep 7, 2016 2:21 am

hood30 wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Believe it or not, some of us didn't have strong opinions about JLin. He seemed like a totally passable backup PG that could start in a pinch. Most didn't track him enough to care what happened in LAL other than to know it was a pretty crappy situation. It is totally inaccurate to act like CHA fans were critical of or antagonistic towards JLin when he signed. The annoyance came when Lin said he was backing up Kemba, Cliff said he was backing up Kemba, Cho said he was backing up Kemba, yet we constantly heard many Lin fans arguing for him to start from day 1.

And what is most annoying is having you tell me what our fanbase's reaction was as though I don't know. You've already started complaining about folks on this board that have posted here for years.


I think most Lin fan were really upset that Lin wasn't starting ahead of PJ Hairston.

Most Lin fan accepted the fact that Kemba was the man in Charlotte, with the exception of a few zealots.

Lin had done well enough during preseason to warrant first look at the 2guard position, and my personally feeling were that Clifford should had started Lin instead of PJ....Lin had outplayed PJ at even that position and should had started, in my opinion.

I know many Hornets feel differently, but I can understand the idea of wanting a taller guy there which is the excuse Clifford gave.

If it was up to me, Lin would had started when MKG went down, and this was really the biggest beef most Lin fan had last year..Many couldn't accept PJ starting ahead of Lin.


I'm one of the few Lin fans, then, that disagrees that LIn should have started when MKG went down. PJ was a plug-in for MKG and Lin was valuable in being a 6th man off of the bench as a guard. Lin is 6'3" compared to PJ's 6'7", so who he guards is in a lower height range. Lin also didn't have all that much involvement with Kemba/Batum running the show either. He was closing many games, pre-Lee, due to his ability to draw fouls and take pressure off of Kemba and Batum and do a good job on the defensive side. But him running a pretty potent 2nd-team and then running with Kemba or Batum and then both at the end of the games, was a solid formula. Once MKG came back, then Lin is still set in his role and no need to put him back to the bench. The Hornets did not want Roberts running the bench.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#922 » by bws94 » Wed Sep 7, 2016 2:27 am

Prokorov wrote:I think the issue is that Lin fans are just that... fans of the player. they are not fans of the team. they want Lin to do well above all us. they dont care about the team doing well. they want the team to win because it reflects well on Lin, but not because they are actually invested in the team at all...

as soon as lin goes to the next team, they tend to root against lins former team if anything.

it shouldnt be hard to tell why this rubs real fans of those teams the wrong way. I had some PMs with guys from the hornets boards and decided to go through the game threads... it was FILLED with hornets wins where over half the posts were lin fans complaining about playing time despite the win... or losses where the coach is blamed for losing the game because lin didnt play enough.

if that happens here it would mean alot long time nets posters are gone... either by leaving or being banned for flaming


Lin fans can adopt the team if they want to. Why should Lin fans be loyal to a team? Teams aren't necessarily loyal to players, it's all business, so why should fans have to be loyal to team. It's up to the fan to choose. I say, respect the team boards and don't talk too much about one player unless it is his thread. Other than that, it's free choice with fans to follow players they like from team to team, or follow a team.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#923 » by bws94 » Wed Sep 7, 2016 2:37 am

94Nuggets wrote:The amount of hate Harden gets is unfathomable. Adidas signed him to a $200 million dollar contract. The Rockets have made Harden the cornerstone of their franchise, and recently gave him a nice pay bump, for just holding onto him for an additional year. In business, money speaks, and Harden with his awful defense, is still one of the most dominant players in the game. He IS the best SG in the NBA. When Lin and Harden were first in Houston, the effectiveness of either player could've been debatable. 4 seasons later, one player has become one of the most efficient scorers in the game. The other player has been bouncing around the league. How can anyone even debate the success of these two players?

Jeremy hasn't been given the keys to run an offense since the days of D'antoni, so it's still debatable whether he's even capable of running a team throughout an entire season. Some fans saying that Harden is better than Lin, but with the added caveat of "but Lin's better on defense," is such a disingenuous statement, since that statement could apply to half the NBA. Even with Harden's lackluster defense, Lin has only proven he's one of the best backup PGs in the game. Harden's lackluster D is what is keeping him from being on the level of a Lebron James. Jeremy Lin... is he even better than Kemba Walker (a smaller version of Harden)?


Forget about Lin, even though he's a Net and it is his thread. I'm not saying anything about him vs. Harden.

Barkley hit the nail on the head. He asked does Harden make guys better? Beyond some stats person telling me how many assists he has, does he make guys better on his team? Do guys feel up and happy playing with him. I think a lot of players don't like playing with him. He can assist and put the ball in the basket. He can get to the foul line. But, the all-important is he really a guy that elevates most of his teammates is one than needs to be asked.

Tired of the Harden stuff. Not a Rockets thread or forum. Why does this keep coming up? Even if considering Lin, he hasn't played with Harden in 2 full seasons.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#924 » by TinmanZBoy » Wed Sep 7, 2016 2:45 am

hood30 wrote:
Mystical Apples wrote:
hood30 wrote:The job of the coach is to identify the best players on the team and than try to give them as much minutes as possible.Coming of the bench, Lin averaged only about 22 minutes per game.


Nah, it's the coach's job to find the right player combinations for the entire 48 minutes, including exploiting opposing 2nd units which sometimes means a weak placeholding starter to preserve the desired substitution patterns.

Who starts is so 1990's. Lin played 26.3 minutes, 5th most ahead of starter Cody Zeller and with 2 of Marvin Williams.

Lin's minutes per game as a bench player is around 22mpg...26MPG looks respectable, but it was mainly based on the 13 games he started where he averaged around 32mpg...You take these 13 starts out of the equation and Lin played no more than any other bench players around the league.

On top of that, Lin was not even that good overall when he came off the bench for Charlotte, shot terribly..39%FG and around 30% 3PTFG..He was clearly a better player when played 30mpg+....So again, did Charlotte really used Lin correctly?..I beg to differ based on stats.

Bench minutes will for the most part, be inconsistent for every players because of changing situations and the need for the bench player to quickly make something happen to get additional minutes.


It had nothing to do with Lin personally. Clifford uses 2 play-makers at all times, wanted size at SG, and valued Lin's play-making against 2nd units instead of diminishing returns with the 1st.

That's why Lin never started over PJ, after PJ when MKG started, after MKG when Lee started, and after Batum's injury and Kaminsky started.

My answer to the "Lin was needed for the second unit" is 2fold..Firstly, Clifford could had scattered Lin's minutes so he could still start the second quarter if he was so concern that starting Lin means not having a trusted PG to play off the bench...The Blazers have been doing so for a large portion of last season with Lillard and CJ McCollough..to great effect.

My second answer for this theory is the fact that Clifford had no issue playing Brian Robert at PG for the second unit, even when Lin was coming off the bench, he had him playing 2guard with Roberts as the PG of the second unit...So Clifford had enough confidence in Roberts to lead the second unit....So that argument is blown off the water right there.

Finally, my guess is that the Hornets really did not want to bend too much for a player that was on a 1 year contract and even if he played well, would end up leaving for big money.....When MKG went down, it made more sense to start PJ simply because they had drafted him and wanted to give him 1 last shot...

Also, they wanted a placeholder to safeguard MKG starting spot when it comes back..They probably did not want a situation where Lin was playing well and team winning and having media wondering whether Charlotte should stay with what works instead of removing Lin out the line-up.

At the end of the day, PJ was total waste of time..And Lin was trash for the most part when he came off the bench..We may never know what would had happen if Lin started and PJ came off the bench but given the stats, I strongly believe team would had been better off with the latter.


last season Hornets did not have a media circus around Lin like Linsanity days or Lakers, so I doubt coach clifford cared about how media would think about things... i think what he cared and what he did was what he believed to be the best for his team to win, to grow, to get better...the team got 48 wins without MKG for most of the season, the team was playing better and better, was the third best team after all star break...it was an excellent coaching job with a group of unselfish players who bought in, sacrificed their own games (in Lin, Al's cases) to make it work...I truly believe if the same group play together for another season, plus a healthy MKG, they would be a top 3 team in the east...However, we all know it is impossible to keep the group together...

Lin came into the Hornets with a defined role to back up Kemba and play with Kemba together at stretches, the sixth man role... He played that role pretty well, the Charlotte bench was excellent before the all star break, they had chemistry, they played well together, they were killing it... that's probably the main reason why coach clifford liked lin coming off bench...
Defensively, it was not ideal to play Lin and Kemba together for long stretches due to size issues even although Lin surprised people and made it work for most part of the season...They did have a bad stretch when starting together, particularly on defense...

PJ did not take away Lin's minutes, a hot early season Lamb did, a solid Lee did, to some degree the reliance on Kemba did... Lin probably closed out most games when PJ started...
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#925 » by 94Nuggets » Wed Sep 7, 2016 3:59 am

bws94 wrote:Barkley hit the nail on the head. He asked does Harden make guys better? Beyond some stats person telling me how many assists he has, does he make guys better on his team? Do guys feel up and happy playing with him. I think a lot of players don't like playing with him. He can assist and put the ball in the basket. He can get to the foul line. But, the all-important is he really a guy that elevates most of his teammates is one than needs to be asked.


James Harden seems like a cool guy. Never heard any player speak negatively of him. The guy is a phenomenol talent, no matter what Chuck says. He can be a piece on a championship level team, sorta like when he was in OKC. He's unstoppable in the open court. His game is about getting to the rim, getting fouled, and shooting 3s. The most efficient shots in basketball. He takes it easy on D, but this is an effort issue, not a physical or talent issue. You build a team of 3&D players around him, and if you can get a Jeremy Lin to spell him, it would be a good situation, lol. Can Jeremy be a piece on a championship team? Does he impact the game enough, whether he gets others involved, or does it all himeslf? He's finally in a position where he can explode, or meet the expectations of the vast majority of NBA fans. Resurgences rarely happen in the NBA. To most fans, he's gone from Linsanity, to starter, to 6th man, to buried on an epically bad Laker roster. What happens next?

Until Lin starts posting astronomicals numbers like Harden, it's a ridiculous comparison. A better comparison would be Jamal Crawford.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#926 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Sep 7, 2016 4:05 am

Prokorov wrote:
Roy Tarpley wrote:- In any case, Lin is starting here and will get 30+ minutes so I really can't think of reasons why Lin fans would complain at this point. I could foresee Lin averaging 17/7 and people arguing about whether Lin deserves to be an All-Star or whether he is a top 10 PG or **** like that.


judging by old game threads from other forums, id speculate we might see nets losses where other players are bashed and dragged through the mud and holding lin back and blaming everyone but lin for losses.... as well as wins where atkinson is bashed for not getting line more volume or shots. or losses where we hear lin should have gotten more late touches

that will get old quick here. id assume id get banned in short order.


Nah. Don't even do it because I know I'd fly off the handle immediately as well. We need to just flag anyone who pulls that crap, no questions asked and let rich and nyce **** can them.

I want Lin here, and i want him to do well because I know he'll give max effort and thats all i ask from anyone. But if I see people who aren't even fans of this team running down Lopez, RHJ, hell I don't care if its even Luis Scola or Joe Harris after losses and pulling that "its everyone's fault but Lin's" crap on here I'm flagging it as a troll post.

You and I both know that this will be rough this season, the best we can hope for is the Nets hanging in there and fighting during games just like last year. But what we don't need is guys who don't even care about our team **** ting on our players or coach because they have an agenda regarding one person. That will piss me off seriously bad.

^^the above is no disrespect to the new guys here who are Lin fans who have engaged in some good conversation. I'm just saying, we've been warned by two different fanbases and we're a fanbase that has had it seriously rough with bad management and cancerous players so the last thing we need is stuff like that being spewed.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#927 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Sep 7, 2016 4:07 am

bws94 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:I think the issue is that Lin fans are just that... fans of the player. they are not fans of the team. they want Lin to do well above all us. they dont care about the team doing well. they want the team to win because it reflects well on Lin, but not because they are actually invested in the team at all...

as soon as lin goes to the next team, they tend to root against lins former team if anything.

it shouldnt be hard to tell why this rubs real fans of those teams the wrong way. I had some PMs with guys from the hornets boards and decided to go through the game threads... it was FILLED with hornets wins where over half the posts were lin fans complaining about playing time despite the win... or losses where the coach is blamed for losing the game because lin didnt play enough.

if that happens here it would mean alot long time nets posters are gone... either by leaving or being banned for flaming


Lin fans can adopt the team if they want to. Why should Lin fans be loyal to a team? Teams aren't necessarily loyal to players, it's all business, so why should fans have to be loyal to team. It's up to the fan to choose. I say, respect the team boards and don't talk too much about one player unless it is his thread. Other than that, it's free choice with fans to follow players they like from team to team, or follow a team.


Correct.

We just hope that the new posters have some respect for the team and the fanbase. That's all. Win or lose, be mindful that while you may only be here for one player, the rest of us care about the Nets (including Lin) and we don't want it to devolve into something negative every game night.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#928 » by Mystical Apples » Wed Sep 7, 2016 4:28 am

hood30 wrote:Lin's minutes per game as a bench player is around 22mpg...26MPG looks respectable, but it was mainly based on the 13 games he started where he averaged around 32mpg...You take these 13 starts out of the equation and Lin played no more than any other bench players around the league.


You say this as though Jeremy Lin was the only player operating outside a vacuum. Every player's minutes fluctuate based upon injuries and the abilities of his dressed teammates. 62 NBA guards played > 2000 minutes last year. Lin was one of them and did so for a playoff team. Conversely, Cody Zeller was a starter and played less than Jeremy Lin.

On top of that, Lin was not even that good overall when he came off the bench for Charlotte, shot terribly..39%FG and around 30% 3PTFG..He was clearly a better player when played 30mpg+....So again, did Charlotte really used Lin correctly?..I beg to differ based on stats.


You're conflating a couple issues. Lin's personal stats are not the barometer through which team success is measured, nor would I use FG% to measure a player's productivity. And besides, for all we know there was a more important 3rd variable.

My answer to the "Lin was needed for the second unit" is 2fold..Firstly, Clifford could had scattered Lin's minutes so he could still start the second quarter if he was so concern that starting Lin means not having a trusted PG to play off the bench...The Blazers have been doing so for a large portion of last season with Lillard and CJ McCollough..to great effect.


Portland is a different team with a different roster. They also won fewer games than CHA and would’ve struggled to make the playoffs in the East. If you’re looking for similarities look at how Stotts used Noah Vonleh and Crabbe.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#929 » by TinmanZBoy » Wed Sep 7, 2016 4:59 am

Mystical Apples wrote:
hood30 wrote:Lin's minutes per game as a bench player is around 22mpg...26MPG looks respectable, but it was mainly based on the 13 games he started where he averaged around 32mpg...You take these 13 starts out of the equation and Lin played no more than any other bench players around the league.


You say this as though Jeremy Lin was the only player operating outside a vacuum. Every player's minutes fluctuate based upon injuries and the abilities of his dressed teammates. 62 NBA guards played > 2000 minutes last year. Lin was one of them and did so for a playoff team. Conversely, Cody Zeller was a starter and played less than Jeremy Lin.

On top of that, Lin was not even that good overall when he came off the bench for Charlotte, shot terribly..39%FG and around 30% 3PTFG..He was clearly a better player when played 30mpg+....So again, did Charlotte really used Lin correctly?..I beg to differ based on stats.


You're conflating a couple issues. Lin's personal stats are not the barometer through which team success is measured, nor would I use FG% to measure a player's productivity. And besides, for all we know there was a more important 3rd variable.

My answer to the "Lin was needed for the second unit" is 2fold..Firstly, Clifford could had scattered Lin's minutes so he could still start the second quarter if he was so concern that starting Lin means not having a trusted PG to play off the bench...The Blazers have been doing so for a large portion of last season with Lillard and CJ McCollough..to great effect.


Portland is a different team with a different roster. They also won fewer games than CHA and would’ve struggled to make the playoffs in the East. If you’re looking for similarities look at how Stotts used Noah Vonleh and Crabbe.


second this... if you look at Lin's last two free agencies, it cannot be more obvious about what teams and GMs are looking for ...
Statistically Lin's season in Lakers is not that different from his season in Hornets... his PER is even better in Lakers season...
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#930 » by Kswiss » Wed Sep 7, 2016 6:23 am

TinmanZBoy wrote:
Mystical Apples wrote:
hood30 wrote:Lin's minutes per game as a bench player is around 22mpg...26MPG looks respectable, but it was mainly based on the 13 games he started where he averaged around 32mpg...You take these 13 starts out of the equation and Lin played no more than any other bench players around the league.


You say this as though Jeremy Lin was the only player operating outside a vacuum. Every player's minutes fluctuate based upon injuries and the abilities of his dressed teammates. 62 NBA guards played > 2000 minutes last year. Lin was one of them and did so for a playoff team. Conversely, Cody Zeller was a starter and played less than Jeremy Lin.

On top of that, Lin was not even that good overall when he came off the bench for Charlotte, shot terribly..39%FG and around 30% 3PTFG..He was clearly a better player when played 30mpg+....So again, did Charlotte really used Lin correctly?..I beg to differ based on stats.


You're conflating a couple issues. Lin's personal stats are not the barometer through which team success is measured, nor would I use FG% to measure a player's productivity. And besides, for all we know there was a more important 3rd variable.

My answer to the "Lin was needed for the second unit" is 2fold..Firstly, Clifford could had scattered Lin's minutes so he could still start the second quarter if he was so concern that starting Lin means not having a trusted PG to play off the bench...The Blazers have been doing so for a large portion of last season with Lillard and CJ McCollough..to great effect.


Portland is a different team with a different roster. They also won fewer games than CHA and would’ve struggled to make the playoffs in the East. If you’re looking for similarities look at how Stotts used Noah Vonleh and Crabbe.


second this... if you look at Lin's last two free agencies, it cannot be more obvious about what teams and GMs are looking for ...
Statistically Lin's season in Lakers is not that different from his season in Hornets... his PER is even better in Lakers season...

Exactly the biggest factor in getting you paid is wins. The Lakers not only tanked away their season, they tanked away their players on expiring deals next contracts by refusing to win. Likewise, nobody on losing teams in general signed major contracts this offseason and some are out of the league when they thought their stats would argue otherwise (Larkin). In contrast the Harrison Barnes, Allen Crabbe, Evan Turners' of the world signed massive contracts without major stats to back them up because of team success. Wins are the biggest thing that get you respect and money as a player. If your game is proven to get W's you get rewarded accordingly. Hence why Lin's value was so depressed after the Lakers tank job, yet rebounded after an outstanding season from Charlotte that beat out their projected wins by almost 20. It was a wake-up call for the league that Lin can in fact carry a team and Lin now has the keys to the Nets franchise and a sizable contract to back it up. All that remains is for him to prove he can continue winning and outdo expectations with the Nets. I never bet against Lin
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#931 » by hood30 » Wed Sep 7, 2016 6:34 am

TinmanZBoy wrote:
hood30 wrote:
Mystical Apples wrote:
Nah, it's the coach's job to find the right player combinations for the entire 48 minutes, including exploiting opposing 2nd units which sometimes means a weak placeholding starter to preserve the desired substitution patterns.

Who starts is so 1990's. Lin played 26.3 minutes, 5th most ahead of starter Cody Zeller and with 2 of Marvin Williams.

Lin's minutes per game as a bench player is around 22mpg...26MPG looks respectable, but it was mainly based on the 13 games he started where he averaged around 32mpg...You take these 13 starts out of the equation and Lin played no more than any other bench players around the league.

On top of that, Lin was not even that good overall when he came off the bench for Charlotte, shot terribly..39%FG and around 30% 3PTFG..He was clearly a better player when played 30mpg+....So again, did Charlotte really used Lin correctly?..I beg to differ based on stats.

Bench minutes will for the most part, be inconsistent for every players because of changing situations and the need for the bench player to quickly make something happen to get additional minutes.


It had nothing to do with Lin personally. Clifford uses 2 play-makers at all times, wanted size at SG, and valued Lin's play-making against 2nd units instead of diminishing returns with the 1st.

That's why Lin never started over PJ, after PJ when MKG started, after MKG when Lee started, and after Batum's injury and Kaminsky started.

My answer to the "Lin was needed for the second unit" is 2fold..Firstly, Clifford could had scattered Lin's minutes so he could still start the second quarter if he was so concern that starting Lin means not having a trusted PG to play off the bench...The Blazers have been doing so for a large portion of last season with Lillard and CJ McCollough..to great effect.

My second answer for this theory is the fact that Clifford had no issue playing Brian Robert at PG for the second unit, even when Lin was coming off the bench, he had him playing 2guard with Roberts as the PG of the second unit...So Clifford had enough confidence in Roberts to lead the second unit....So that argument is blown off the water right there.

Finally, my guess is that the Hornets really did not want to bend too much for a player that was on a 1 year contract and even if he played well, would end up leaving for big money.....When MKG went down, it made more sense to start PJ simply because they had drafted him and wanted to give him 1 last shot...

Also, they wanted a placeholder to safeguard MKG starting spot when it comes back..They probably did not want a situation where Lin was playing well and team winning and having media wondering whether Charlotte should stay with what works instead of removing Lin out the line-up.

At the end of the day, PJ was total waste of time..And Lin was trash for the most part when he came off the bench..We may never know what would had happen if Lin started and PJ came off the bench but given the stats, I strongly believe team would had been better off with the latter.


last season Hornets did not have a media circus around Lin like Linsanity days or Lakers, so I doubt coach clifford cared about how media would think about things... i think what he cared and what he did was what he believed to be the best for his team to win, to grow, to get better...the team got 48 wins without MKG for most of the season, the team was playing better and better, was the third best team after all star break...it was an excellent coaching job with a group of unselfish players who bought in, sacrificed their own games (in Lin, Al's cases) to make it work...I truly believe if the same group play together for another season, plus a healthy MKG, they would be a top 3 team in the east...However, we all know it is impossible to keep the group together...

Lin came into the Hornets with a defined role to back up Kemba and play with Kemba together at stretches, the sixth man role... He played that role pretty well, the Charlotte bench was excellent before the all star break, they had chemistry, they played well together, they were killing it... that's probably the main reason why coach clifford liked lin coming off bench...
Defensively, it was not ideal to play Lin and Kemba together for long stretches due to size issues even although Lin surprised people and made it work for most part of the season...They did have a bad stretch when starting together, particularly on defense...

PJ did not take away Lin's minutes, a hot early season Lamb did, a solid Lee did, to some degree the reliance on Kemba did... Lin probably closed out most games when PJ started...



Was Lin really that good as a 6th man, coming off the bench for the Hornets last year??...Yes, he had a few good games here and there just like most bench players, but overall, he was below average whenever he came off the bench..Statistics proves this very clearly, so I don't understand why some keep ignoring Lin stats when he came off the bench for Charlotte were well below average.

As a bench player, Lin was wildly inconsistent..His "overall" good year is based on his 13 starts where he averaged 17.5ppg and shot 46% from 3PT..Without these precious 13 starts, Lin probably could had ended up like PJ Hairston, out of the league.

Lin is not good at coming off the bench..He's a rhythm player and needs minutes to be consistent.. Clifford would had gotten much more out of him if he had started Lin instead of PJ, for sure.

Lin simply lucked out big time last year with the MKG injury and Batum/PJ/Kemba missing the games that allowed him to get these 13 starts.

There is a huge difference between Lin the starter and Lin the bench player..check the stats..They don't lie.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#932 » by ChokeFasncists » Wed Sep 7, 2016 9:27 am

I understand that it's the offseason so it's boring and TrolLin is fun for some; but visitors, do note that this thread has its own rules, talking about fans as a group and over-generalization is illegal and don't complain if you suddenly get disciplined!
MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
Thanks for the honesty.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#933 » by Roy Tarpley » Wed Sep 7, 2016 12:39 pm

Prokorov wrote: 2 things here... first, FG% is an inferior stat, as it assume all shots are equal and discounts any points genereated via FTs. its why all analytics people use eFG% and TS% as well as PPP.


FG% is not an inferior stat, it is simply "a" stat among many stats. TS% is a broader stat but it doesn't tell you the breakdown of FG%, 3PT%, and FT%. If player X has a 60% TS%, I don't know if he is a good FT shooter, a good post player, or evenly good overall. Harden has a high TS% due to his FT% and FTA. Hassan Whiteside had a higher TS% than Harden last year due to a high FG%. It's no surprise that most of the league leaders in TS% are forward/centers.

Harden posted elite numbers in houston as well. in a bigger role. to say his numbers are skewed due to time in OKC is 1) disingenius and 2) discredits 3 years of his career, well, for no real reason. why does he get punished for having played in OKC?


I'm not discrediting Harden's years in OKC (I'm not sure why you think that), I'm extolling his years in OKC. Harden's playoff TS% was higher in OKC than HOU, precisely because his playoff FG% was higher in OKC than HOU. Harden's playoff PER in OKC was lower than in HOU because he was third fiddle to Durant and Westbrook.

I think your bias is intentionally or unintentionally creeping in. you are twisting in knots trying to discredit harden, and all you really have come up with is "his defense is so bad it discredits him being a star", yet provide no substance other then your eyeball test, which is tough to count onconsidering it missed hardens near triple doubles in the conference finals


I am biased . . . towards well-rounded players and accurate statements. You're creating a strawman argument by insisting that I said, "his defense is so bad it discredits him from being a star." I never said this. I think that Harden is more than just a star, I think he is an All-NBA quality player offensively, though I think his low playoff FG% in Houston (~40% compared to 44% during regular season) mitigates his brilliance just a little bit -- but maybe this is offset by his incredible ability to get to the line.

Also, I think his overall excellence is considerably marred by his visibly atrocious defense (highlighted by some terrible lowlights on the Shaqtin a Fool MVP segment) although I admit that his actual defensive stats may prove that he is just bad instead of All-NBA bad.

I also admitted that Harden was not overrated this year because he was not on the All-NBA teams. I do think he was overrated by the media in some previous years but not overrated by that much.

I don't think we differ all that much -- but I think we had different interpretations of certain words like overrated.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#934 » by 13th Man » Wed Sep 7, 2016 2:34 pm

hood30 wrote:
The job of the coach is to identify the best players on the team and than try to give them as much minutes as possible.

Coming of the bench, Lin averaged only about 22 minutes per game. We all agree that is too low for Lin. Starting Lin ahead of PJ would had pretty much locked Lin into the 30mpg range, and in my opinion, that was the logical move as oppose to starting PJ which makes it difficult to maximize Lin's minutes on the floor.

So yes, I still have qualm over this issue..I felt Clifford tried to be too cute with the PJ experiment instead of just throwing his best starting 5 out there.

It was clear even during the Hornets preseason games that Lin was ready to ball and he even started alongside Kemba/Batum for these game and averaged about 17ppg in the 6 preseason games...badly outplaying PJ at the shooting-guard position.

I reject all notion that starting PJ was the right move..starting PJ was a dumb move..I like Clifford and he's a good coach, but he's not without flaws and that was one of his dumb move last year.

I truly believe the Hornets could had been a better team if Lin was starting and getting 30mpg..He probably wouldn't be averaging 18ppg, but I think Lin would be around 14 or 15ppg...scattering Lin and Kemba minutes properly would had given Lin the time to play PG and do his thing while still getting 30mpg.

Lin is a minutes guy..the reason why he didn't shoot well last year was simply because of his inconsistent minutes..I belive this year, you will see Lin go back to his career shooting line of 44%FG and 34% 3PTFG...I'm hoping for better 3pt%..But even under these lines, Lin could still average 17ppg under good volume shooting.

All and all. I feel the Hornets fail to maximize Lin ability..instead, spent more time trying to contain him on the bench when he was one of their best players, alongside Kemba/Batum.


That's assuming that Lin would have gotten 30+ mins, especially when Kemba, Nic and Marvin were guaranteed theirs. if Lin got 30mins, PJ and Lamb would've gotten very little minutes.

Also, his stats in preseason doesn't mean much imo, he always does well there where there's little pressure on. Have you seen the many games where he played alongside Nic and Kemba in the regular season where he ends up standing in the corner for the most part while the other 2 run the plays?

You can argue that the Hornets team wasn't the best fit for Lin, hence why he's here now.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#935 » by cn0gd » Wed Sep 7, 2016 3:09 pm

Prokorov wrote:
cn0gd wrote:
HardenTime wrote:

smh wow these lin fans are doing it to another poor franchise. Im a rockets fan and when we had Lin on our team, many of his supporters would constantly compare him to Nash, Parker, and say that black nba players were harder on pg's like Lin and Rubio. Its always conspiracy with them. Some of them even think deep down that Lin is better than James Harden.. smh


3 years passed, clowns never changes. this dude is a good sample of that pool of "another kind of people".

is comparing Lin to Nash, Parker anything wrong? ppl always compare NBA players, he is better here but not as good there, he recall me this dude but got a long way to go, etc, and it's completely normal. when it comes to Lin, why suddenly it sounds ridiculous to these guy's?

only explanation is dudes are biased--that they think Lin is not even qualified to compared to other good players. and they think they are right and on the moral high ground.

lots of these dudes exist in the world and they will keep being ignorant to their own problem, part of reason why 153 years after The Emancipation Proclamationwe US still need BLM movement.


typicaly you dont compare bench guys to hall of fame former mvps

booker isnt being compared to karl malone in his thread

levert isnt being compared to grant hill

etc

cognitive error.
compare to: used to assert when to things are alike
A is alike B doesn't mean A=B
they can have similar skill set, but one can be much better than the other on most skills, such as one is overall S grade the other is B+.
Lin can be alike Nash, but is poor man's version with better defense, after comparing/analyzing each of the skills. if we dont do the compare/analyse we cant draw a convincing conclusion, only leave 2 sides yelling at each other, with a competition of flooding the forum with their claims.
in a debate if both sides are intellectually honest they should come to a same conclusion- usually not gonna happen. and here we go another 5 pages about Haren.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#936 » by NyCeEvO » Wed Sep 7, 2016 4:24 pm

Ahem...lest people forget the rules/guidelines for this thread stated in the OP, let me paste them here.

If you are in violation of these rules, the appropriate penalties will be dealt swiftly and that goes for any and all posters including long-time Net fans, Lin fans, Lin haters, etc.

1.) KEEP ALL LIN WORSHIPPING WITHIN THIS THREAD

We realize that you are all Lin fans first. The moment any of you begin to twist stats to make him look like a god to argue with a regular, it brings the board down as a whole, which leads to my next point.

2.) THE NETS MODERATORS WILL BE INSTITUTING A 1-STRIKE BAN POLICY

With the recommendation of other moderators along with experiencing you or ourselves in Lin's signing thread, we have decided to move ahead with this. The moment you derail a discussion or start an argument, you will be issued a ban.

3.) YOU ARE STILL POSTING UNDER REALGM'S FORUM RULES BOTH IN AND OUT OF THIS THREAD
Please read this when you have a chance.
viewtopic.php?f=191&t=1267696

4.) DO NOT ANTAGONIZE LIN FANS
They have a right to post here and they have a right to their opinion.



And let me also add that comparing Lin (positively or negatively) to another player will be considered derailing discussion. Since no one can seem to talk about Lin with respect to other players without belittling the opinions of others, no one will do so going forward.


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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#937 » by spaceballer » Wed Sep 7, 2016 5:19 pm

Nets commercial on the YES network featuring Brook and Lin, for the obvious "BrookLin" marketing.



And Jeremy is the cover story in the magazine NBA Hoop (issue #533). At least according to the guy who posted the link (it's in Chinese, which I can't read). Here's the link to the magazine cover and more info in Chinese:

Image
http://m.weibo.cn/1719824734/E70PoE181

And apparently some tweet in Chinese related to it (which, again, I can't read :lol:).

Read on Twitter


Not sure if the magazine cover is normally in black and white, or if they did that for Nets colors.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#938 » by hood30 » Wed Sep 7, 2016 6:31 pm

13th Man wrote:
hood30 wrote:
The job of the coach is to identify the best players on the team and than try to give them as much minutes as possible.

Coming of the bench, Lin averaged only about 22 minutes per game. We all agree that is too low for Lin. Starting Lin ahead of PJ would had pretty much locked Lin into the 30mpg range, and in my opinion, that was the logical move as oppose to starting PJ which makes it difficult to maximize Lin's minutes on the floor.

So yes, I still have qualm over this issue..I felt Clifford tried to be too cute with the PJ experiment instead of just throwing his best starting 5 out there.

It was clear even during the Hornets preseason games that Lin was ready to ball and he even started alongside Kemba/Batum for these game and averaged about 17ppg in the 6 preseason games...badly outplaying PJ at the shooting-guard position.

I reject all notion that starting PJ was the right move..starting PJ was a dumb move..I like Clifford and he's a good coach, but he's not without flaws and that was one of his dumb move last year.

I truly believe the Hornets could had been a better team if Lin was starting and getting 30mpg..He probably wouldn't be averaging 18ppg, but I think Lin would be around 14 or 15ppg...scattering Lin and Kemba minutes properly would had given Lin the time to play PG and do his thing while still getting 30mpg.

Lin is a minutes guy..the reason why he didn't shoot well last year was simply because of his inconsistent minutes..I belive this year, you will see Lin go back to his career shooting line of 44%FG and 34% 3PTFG...I'm hoping for better 3pt%..But even under these lines, Lin could still average 17ppg under good volume shooting.

All and all. I feel the Hornets fail to maximize Lin ability..instead, spent more time trying to contain him on the bench when he was one of their best players, alongside Kemba/Batum.


That's assuming that Lin would have gotten 30+ mins, especially when Kemba, Nic and Marvin were guaranteed theirs. if Lin got 30mins, PJ and Lamb would've gotten very little minutes.

Also, his stats in preseason doesn't mean much imo, he always does well there where there's little pressure on. Have you seen the many games where he played alongside Nic and Kemba in the regular season where he ends up standing in the corner for the most part while the other 2 run the plays?

You can argue that the Hornets team wasn't the best fit for Lin, hence why he's here now.


If it was up to me, PJ would had not even be in the rotation in the first place..I Thought both Lin and Lamb showed much more than he did in preseason and even during the season....Are you really surprised no team has signed PJ Hairston?

Starting Lin would had made it easier to give him 30mpg..As you know, it's very hard to do this whenever the player comes off the bench..

I have no problem starting Kemba/Lin/Batum...At least I'd have more confidence in Lin hitting the open shot when Kemba/Batum gets doubled-up..PJ could not...That alone made PJ a bad choice to start alongside Kemba/Batum.

Also, you have no problem allowing Kemba/Lin/Batum to finish game...so why not let them start...As I've stated, all of them do not have to play every single minutes together..You could scatter their minutes..That is if your concern is really the fact Lin would be on the corner too much.

Clifford started to scatter Batum minutes so that he could also start with the second unit and separate him from Kemba so he could be Point-Forward...So the idea that Lin couldn't start because he wouldn't be involve enough is just a bad excuse.

And remember, this is a point that I've made to you multiple time and you've always ducked it..and it is whenever Lin plays well and Clifford keeps him in, he gets very tired because he has to play too many straight minutes without taking a break.

This is something Lin himself brought up during the playoff..It almost felt he read my post about the problem of not starting Lin and how much it handicapped him..He's a rhythm player and even when he plays well, he's handicapped because he's too tired to play 18 straight minutes.

But anyway, We'll agree to disagree..I believe Clifford could had squeezed much more out of Lin by starting him..and I believe Charlotte would had won more games.

They still won a lot of games, but I believe they could had been even better with Kemba/Lin/Batum with Lin averaging 30mpg..scattering his minutes into the second units..PJ was not good enough to be a roadblock.

That's just my opinion.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#939 » by TinmanZBoy » Thu Sep 8, 2016 12:52 am

this is a scouting report of Lin someone posted on reddit two years ago, right after Lin was traded to the Lakers... I think it is a good one, after two up and down seasons, it still is essentially true about Lin as a player, albeit Lin is more versatile and experienced now...

Lin has a very diversified offense--he takes roughly a third of his shots from three point range, mid-range and at the rim, so he's comfortable utilizing the entire length of the court. That, above anything, differentiates him from many of the lower-level point and combo guards in the league. At his best, Lin is penetrating deep to the basket for layups, drawing bushels of fouls, swishing spot-up and self-created mid-range shots, and hitting the occasional three, providing a viable source of offense. He is also playing good team defense and preventing teams from hitting money shots (layups and threes). At his worst, Lin stops short of the basket, displaying tunnel vision and missing open teammates as he flings up runners or takes tough fadeaway shots, or starts turning the ball over incessantly. He would also stop rebounding.
Lin's most unique asset is creating driving layups for himself: nearly 30% of his shots are driving layups, a rate in the fifth of all point guards, and he's also adept at utilizing reverse layups. It's also an excellent value play for him, because at 59.8%, he's well into the top third in conversion rate, and he does an excellent job of drawing fouls and finishing through contact, with a foul-drawing rate of 0.38 (a top six mark for points, and in line with what he's done career-wise). Another third of Lin's shots were from mid-range, and he's also an excellent value play here, with an above average percentage of 39.9%. Looking deeper, Lin in particular does well directly at the rim (63.2%) and from long mid-rangers (42.4%), his two hot-spots. In adapting to his hybrid guard role, Lin created his own shots at the rim roughly a third of the time, while his long mid-rangers were off a mix of assisted and self-created shots. Lin isn't great from long range, but posts somewhat respectable percentages (35.8% this year, 34.3% career) and there's definite hope given that he shoots a career 80.1% from the line on a large sample size.
The problem with Lin is not really about what he is, but what he isn't: one of the primary concerns is what position allows him to optimize his level of play while simultaneously elevating the team play. So far, the numbers paint his best position as shooting guard. If so, he lacks the next level athleticism to compensate for his lack of height: while his dunk rate (0.6%) is perfectly fine for a point guard, as a shooting guard that is a bottom quarter rate. Despite a diversified offense, Lin also lacks the next-level offensive skills: he is a face-up driver and does not utilize his sturdy frame for post-ups, having attempted zero hook shots this past year. He's also not effective in the wonky shots: his points per play on runners, pull-up jumpers and in particular fadeaway and turnaround type shots are quite poor. Lin takes nearly a fifth of his shots in the in-between zones (4-15 feet), but only shoots 33.3% on runners and an abysmal 31.9% from no-man's land.
The other issue is that Lin is not a pure point guard by any stretch: in adapting to the Rockets' depth this past season, he took on a fairly mediocre usage rate. Despite that, his assist rate was bottom third among point guards this past season, and to add insult to injury, he had the fourth worst turnover rate. He had the worst combination of turnover rate and assist rate among points, for players who played over twenty minutes per game.
As a result, Jeremy's offense was less than the sum of its parts this season--adjusted by position, real-plus minus puts him a subpar 231st in offensive effectiveness (out of 430 NBA players), which jibes with 82games' assessment that the Rockets' offense was three points worse with him on the court. Looking deeper, Jeremy played nearly two-thirds of his minutes as point guard, but really struggled to generate offense at that position. While his scoring rate was nearly four points less, his efficiency was nearly six percent worse, and even at point guard his assist rate and turnover rates were noticeably worse. Not surprisingly, Jeremy operates better as the de-facto shooting guard in a team's five-man configurations, as he is not a true point.
Overall, on offense, Lin has a very interesting set of skills, as his ability to pair his constant finishing and foul drawing ability with a good mid-range jumper and foul shooting is appealing, on top of a diversified offense with respectable three point shooting. He has an excellent scoring base coming off the highest true shooting percentage of his career, and excellent guard penetration is something that is arguably harder to find than a guard who can shoot, so there is that level of appeal to his game.
At only age 25, there's also that allure of what he did in the past, and whether he can recapture it: in Houston, he was operating under a clogged offense with alpha males who demand the ball like James Harden and Dwight Howard in Houston. He didn't fit that style, because he wasn't a spot-up type or floor spacer, and at times he operates the same at-rim real estate as those two, which was why he had a net negative offensive rating. While he certainly did not play like a point guard whatsoever the past year, there is evidence favoring that with a higher usage rate. During that 35-game stretch of Linsanity in New York, Lin carried a top-four usage rate, which resulted in a top ten assist rate. He also sported a positive offensive rating, the only time he's ever sported a positive rating here in the NBA. Granted, the sample space is smaller and he was playing uninhibited in former Laker coach Mike D'Antoni's offense, but there there appears to be a direct higher usage to higher efficiency and assist rate correlation with him. Lin needs an open floor, essentially, to tap into what was previously decent to good point guard ability. There is a possibility that he can combine a high usage scoring-passing combination, but it appears in particular a high usage is necessary for Lin to actually make a positive impact on the team's offense. At the very least, he's a very good bench scorer if he cannot hone in the passing to its prior levels. He could certainly also work on refining his ability to hit more complicated shots in the no-man's zones, as well as further improving his long ball and cutting down his turnovers.
On defense, Lin actually rates very well. After adjusting by position, Lin was 77th out of 430 NBA players by defensive RPM the past year, a very good mark; 82games also agrees with this idea, with the Rockets being nearly three points defensively with Lin on the court. nbawowy also agrees, with the Rockets being 0.01 points per possession better defensively with Lin on the court. Lin-based lineups defended layups better by nearly three percent, while defending threes better by 0.6%. These markers are not a fluke, given that Lin also played good team defense during the time of Linsanity. Lin is also an excellent shotblocker by position (7th out of 63 point guards), continuing excellent rates that were seen in college and illustrating his savvy in leveraging his height to make up for lack of length. Still, Lin's imposed-athletic markers really, really tailed off this past season, with a defensive rebound rate in the bottom fifth of all NBA point guards. Lin put up excellent rebounding numbers in college and had put up a top 15 rebound rate in New York. After years of top-notch thievery in college and in his first three years in the league, Lin was also in the bottom third in steal rate this past year, but this might normalize back to its past levels, and considering the very good defense he might have played more contain-level defense the past year.
Lin was better defending point guards than shooting guards, holding down their scoring rate by nearly five points while reducing the efficiency by nearly ten percent, and in general he allows opposing guards to score. The ideal scenario to prevent crossmatching, and optimizing Lin, would create an offense centralized around him to allow him to play point guard at a reasonable level, so he can defend point guards well while being a positive on the team's offense. Lin appears to really, really elevate his game on all facets when he has the ball in his hands, and this even extends to rebounding and stealing the ball. A Lin at past year's level would require crossmatching--a SG offensively, and a PG defensively.
Overall, Lin is a very useful player--while he's definitely overpaid at $15 million this year due to the poison pill contract the Rockets gave him, there is at least some rationale for giving him a large amount of money in the first place. He's still only age 25, and he is a two-way player who might have been suppressed somewhat in Houston's alpha-male offense the past year. His offensive skill at the point guard--ability to draw fouls at will and finish--is a unique trait, and coupled with a very good mid-range shot, an improving long ball and possible point skills with a larger usage, there is a ton to like here. He also couples that with good defensive ratings on top of a precedence for thievery, defensive rebounding and shotblocking, with good size for the point. He is also a good locker room presence, a true professional, and a marketing magnet, especially in Los Angeles where there is a sizeable Asian population. Lin has a real penchant for turnovers and can stand to improve his in-between shots, both of which are real sources of frustration, but few players even have a diversified offensive game in their arsenal, and he's taking those shots in an attempt to grow into them. At the worst, he's putting up very good scoring and defending off-the-bench value, but he might be more than that as a rock-solid starter if he rediscovers the passing ability.
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Re: The Official Lin Net Thread 

Post#940 » by 13th Man » Thu Sep 8, 2016 2:22 am

hood30 wrote:If it was up to me, PJ would had not even be in the rotation in the first place..I Thought both Lin and Lamb showed much more than he did in preseason and even during the season....Are you really surprised no team has signed PJ Hairston?

Starting Lin would had made it easier to give him 30mpg..As you know, it's very hard to do this whenever the player comes off the bench..

I have no problem starting Kemba/Lin/Batum...At least I'd have more confidence in Lin hitting the open shot when Kemba/Batum gets doubled-up..PJ could not...That alone made PJ a bad choice to start alongside Kemba/Batum.

Also, you have no problem allowing Kemba/Lin/Batum to finish game...so why not let them start...As I've stated, all of them do not have to play every single minutes together..You could scatter their minutes..That is if your concern is really the fact Lin would be on the corner too much.

Clifford started to scatter Batum minutes so that he could also start with the second unit and separate him from Kemba so he could be Point-Forward...So the idea that Lin couldn't start because he wouldn't be involve enough is just a bad excuse.

And remember, this is a point that I've made to you multiple time and you've always ducked it..and it is whenever Lin plays well and Clifford keeps him in, he gets very tired because he has to play too many straight minutes without taking a break.

This is something Lin himself brought up during the playoff..It almost felt he read my post about the problem of not starting Lin and how much it handicapped him..He's a rhythm player and even when he plays well, he's handicapped because he's too tired to play 18 straight minutes.

But anyway, We'll agree to disagree..I believe Clifford could had squeezed much more out of Lin by starting him..and I believe Charlotte would had won more games.

They still won a lot of games, but I believe they could had been even better with Kemba/Lin/Batum with Lin averaging 30mpg..scattering his minutes into the second units..PJ was not good enough to be a roadblock.

That's just my opinion.


Disclaimer that I won't be addressing every point of your post (if that is what you mean by ducking). Imo, the reasons why Lin didn't start at SG was probably because they didn't need him there with Batum and Kemba running the offense, instead his versatility was better served coming off the bench to fill the pg/sg gaps wherever needed. It was clear that Roberts wasn't going to be entrusted with running the 2nd unit especially after the way he played the year before. PJ was a filler on offense but also provided some good defense with his size. If all the best players should start and play 30+ minutes, then there wouldn't be a need for guys like Crawford, Ginobli, Igoudala etc. to come off the bench.

Clifford's job isn't to maximize Lin's output by recognizing his rythmness, while scattering Batum around with the 2nd unit. I believe that Batum was used more with the 2nd unit while he was eased back from injury. Of course there will be times when they don't play together but I don't think it was deliberately set to separate him from Kemba. When healthy, Kemba and Batum are the cornerstone players and the rest revolve around them.

My point is that Lin probably wasn't the best fit to be a starter with the Hornets makeup last year, and that's why he chose to come here where he could play his game. It's like you're trying to jam a side or corner piece into the center of the puzzle while bending the other pieces around it in the process.

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