MVP Rankings 1.0

[Doctor MJ]

And in all of those 7 years not only once had LeBron better team than Kobe...maybe once, when Kobe was busy losing in the first round.

Last year he had the better team, and couldn't even reach the Finals to meet Kobe.

Team can't be an excuse when he lost to a Magic team missing their all-star PG, AND had HCA.

When a player goes 38/8/8 and his team loses, OBVIOUSLY supporting cast is a major question. There is a difference between getting upset like, and getting upset Dirk-Golden State style.

[Bgil]

I haven't claimed anything.

Much worse than Kobe ever did? I'll give you the Spurs series, 22-year-old LeBron whose starting SG and PF were some of the worst current players in the NBA and PG was a 2nd round rookie.

Boston series? Yeah, aside the terrible first game (in which Paul Pierce scored 4 points on 2-14 shooting btw) he didn't play any worse than Kobe against Detroit. And last three games LeBron went for 35, 32 and 45.

So if you take out Lebron's worst game against Boston... ok, thanks for playing.

Kobe played better against Boston than Lebron did.

And in all of those 7 years not only once had LeBron better team than Kobe...maybe once, when Kobe was busy losing in the first round.

Bull. The only two players that could have even made the Cavs rotation were Kobe and Odom. Everyone else would have struggled to even make the team much less get on the floor.... or should I remind you that Chris Mihm and Smush Parker used to play for the Cavs.

Must be nice to rack up wins against a team that would be sub .500 in the West.

But sure, go ahead and hang beating the Wizards every year over our heads and we'll hang our championship banner over yours.

[Bgil]

And in all of those 7 years not only once had LeBron better team than Kobe...maybe once, when Kobe was busy losing in the first round.

Last year he had the better team, and couldn't even reach the Finals to meet Kobe.

Team can't be an excuse when he lost to a Magic team missing their all-star PG, AND had HCA.

When a player goes 38/8/8 and his team loses, OBVIOUSLY supporting cast is a major question. There is a difference between getting upset like, and getting upset Dirk-Golden State style.

The Cavs team D crumbled and they lost. Putting up monster numbers on the offensive end doesn't help when the other team's combo forwards (Lebron's position) are eating you alive.

[CzBoobie]

So if you take out Lebron's worst game against Boston... ok, thanks for playing.

Kobe played better against Boston than Lebron did.

His last three games were better than anything Kobe put up against Detroit in the Finals, the first game was worse, the rest was on par.

If so, not by very much...LeBron was +21 in the series, Kobe was -39.

[YLSKillaCam]

And in all of those 7 years not only once had LeBron better team than Kobe...maybe once, when Kobe was busy losing in the first round.

Last year he had the better team, and couldn't even reach the Finals to meet Kobe.

Team can't be an excuse when he lost to a Magic team missing their all-star PG, AND had HCA.

When a player goes 38/8/8 and his team loses, OBVIOUSLY supporting cast is a major question. There is a difference between getting upset like, and getting upset Dirk-Golden State style.

No. This is untrue. That series proves what most people have been saying in this thread. Namely, it isn't so much statistical dominance that counts in basketball. What counts in basketball is decision making.

Lebron repeatedly made poor decisions in the Orlando series. Cleveland was a better team throughout 82 games and got their butts handed to them in six because Lebron failed to meet the challenge placed before him.

Think about the Nuggets. Hell Kobe went off on the nuggets, but had they lost, all the blame would've been placed on his decision making and with good reason. Games are won or lost by the decisions made. You can still go off and have a poor game decision wise and it not show up in the box score, but winning a championship means making the right decisions at the right time.

All that is missing the point.

This season, Kobe's obviously the MVP. Nearly every media outlet has said it and he continues to widen the gap with each game played.

[An Unbiased Fan]

And in all of those 7 years not only once had LeBron better team than Kobe...maybe once, when Kobe was busy losing in the first round.

Last year he had the better team, and couldn't even reach the Finals to meet Kobe.

Team can't be an excuse when he lost to a Magic team missing their all-star PG, AND had HCA.

When a player goes 38/8/8 and his team loses, OBVIOUSLY supporting cast is a major question. There is a difference between getting upset like, and getting upset Dirk-Golden State style.

When a player goes 38/8/8 and his team loses.....that tells me that the player isn't untilizing the players around him effectively. Going 1 on 5 doesn't work in the playoffs against quality(50 win) teams very often. Hence the reason Lebron has only beat ONE 50 win team his entire career.

[LebronsCavs]

Haha I see all the Kobe trolls are out.

[Bgil]

So if you take out Lebron's worst game against Boston... ok, thanks for playing.

Kobe played better against Boston than Lebron did.

His last three games were better than anything Kobe put up against Detroit in the Finals, the first game was worse, the rest was on par.

If so, not by very much...LeBron was +21 in the series, Kobe was -39.

Why are you comparing 2004 Detroit with 2008 Boston? That's not really a fair comparison considering how much better Detroit was defensively and the massive difference in the perimeter contact officiating.

You do know that Kobe played against that same Boston team only a few weeks later than Lebron did, right?

[Doctor MJ]

Think about the Nuggets. Hell Kobe went off on the nuggets, but had they lost, all the blame would've been placed on his decision making and with good reason. Games are won or lost by the decisions made. You can still go off and have a poor game decision wise and it not show up in the box score, but winning a championship means making the right decisions at the right time.

All that is missing the point.

Actually not sure what you meant by "All that is missing the point", but it's actually more accurate than you meant.

Possibly the dumbest thing that sports fans do is take a sample size of one and make wild generalizations about it. LeBron's team got upset in one series where he certainly didn't choke, his teammates shot horribly, and the opponent got hot. From that one incident, people are dead convinced that everything bad that happened is due to a fatal flaw in LeBron's game. And yes, had Kobe's team lost, they'd say the same types of things about him. And it would be just as crazy.

[HouMac]

This really has got to suck for Kobe fans. After all his hard work this offseason, and his great play on the court, he's still getting completely dominated by The King by all statistical metrics out there. His significantly more talented team is only 2 games ahead in the standings despite playing the softest schedule in the league. No wonder the fanboys sound so frustrated. They have pretty much nothing tangible to point to somehow make an argument for Kobe>LeBron.

[YLSKillaCam]

Think about the Nuggets. Hell Kobe went off on the nuggets, but had they lost, all the blame would've been placed on his decision making and with good reason. Games are won or lost by the decisions made. You can still go off and have a poor game decision wise and it not show up in the box score, but winning a championship means making the right decisions at the right time.

All that is missing the point.

Actually not sure what you meant by "All that is missing the point", but it's actually more accurate than you meant.

Possibly the dumbest thing that sports fans do is take a sample size of one and make wild generalizations about it. LeBron's team got upset in one series where he certainly didn't choke, his teammates shot horribly, and the opponent got hot. From that one incident, people are dead convinced that everything bad that happened is due to a fatal flaw in LeBron's game. And yes, had Kobe's team lost, they'd say the same types of things about him. And it would be just as crazy.

I don't think it is dumb.

The biggest games are played on a small sample size. You judge the greatest players on how they do in the smallest sample of games.

You didn't judge jordan based on the regular season, you judged him based on what he was able to do in the 7 game championship series.

The superbowl is 1 game. Most legends are created by how they do in that 1 game.

on and on....

The entire point about being legendary and great is being the best in a small sample of games which have more importance than all the others.

[YLSKillaCam]

This really has got to suck for Kobe fans. After all his hard work this offseason, and his great play on the court, he's still getting completely dominated by The King by all statistical metrics out there. His significantly more talented team is only 2 games ahead in the standings despite playing the softest schedule in the league. No wonder the fanboys sound so frustrated. They have pretty much nothing tangible to point to somehow make an argument for Kobe>LeBron.

Pretty much the entire basketball world believes Kobe is better than Lebron and that Kobe is player of the decade. He'll add an MVP this season and perhaps another ring.

None of the statistics in the world matter more than the rings on Kobe's fingers.

[CzBoobie]

So if you take out Lebron's worst game against Boston... ok, thanks for playing.

Kobe played better against Boston than Lebron did.

His last three games were better than anything Kobe put up against Detroit in the Finals, the first game was worse, the rest was on par.

If so, not by very much...LeBron was +21 in the series, Kobe was -39.

Why are you comparing 2004 Detroit with 2008 Boston? That's not really a fair comparison considering how much better Detroit was defensively and the massive difference in the perimeter contact officiating.

You do know that Kobe played against that same Boston team only a few weeks later than Lebron did, right?

Umm, you said Kobe never played as bad as LeBron in the playoffs...he did. And no, 2004 Detroit wasn't on entirely diferent level defensively. Even if they were, Kobe had Shaq, LeBron's second best player was Delonte West.

I do know that, those +/- are from their respective Boston series in 2008.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't think it is dumb.

The biggest games are played on a small sample size. You judge the greatest players on how they do in the smallest sample of games.

You didn't judge jordan based on the regular season, you judged him based on what he was able to do in the 7 game championship series.

The superbowl is 1 game. Most legends are created by how they do in that 1 game.

on and on....

The entire point about being legendary and great is being the best in a small sample of games which have more importance than all the others.

There's a few distinctions that could be made here, but there is one that's completely glaring: Judging a player based on how he does his thing on a small sample size vs judging a player based on how his team does in a small sample size. If a player is screwing up left and right on the biggest stage, then obviously that says a lot about that player. However, when the argument against a player is that he must have been the reason why his teammates performed so terribly, really, some restraint is in order.

It happens all the time that players are said to have a fatal character flaw that keeps them from winning it all, until they win, and then all of a sudden he's thought of completely differently. It's foolishness. Yes, players do mature, but more often then not, when an individual's team success takes that last step to champion-status, it's the same guy who had the ball bounce his way this time.

Now with that said, that Kobe led a team to a title as the #1 guy is absolutely meaningful. I don't mean to take that away from him. But people making absolute statements about what LeBron can't do based on one series where the obvious reasons for failure were related to teammates who had never been considered very good until the team started playing well...classic sports fan silliness.

[NYK 455]

Kobe Bryant isn't the MVP or the best player in the league, he's the best player on the best team, a very stacked team that would be dangerous even if he wasn't on it. LeBron James is the best player in the league, and even though he probably won't win the MVP, he should. LeBron is just flat out better than Kobe. He scores at the same volume with better efficiency, is a better passer and playmaker, better rebounder, and a better and more versatile defender. Kobe has had a more successful career, but look at all the great teammates he's had, he wasn't even the best player on his team for most of his career, not to mention he's had the GOAT coach.

It doesn't make sense that people knock LeBron for losing the the Magic. LeBron led the Cavs to 66 wins with Mo Williams as the second best player. Let that sink in for a second. Mo Williams, a nice player, but not all-star caliber. It's crazy that the Cavs won that many games that year. Kobe Bryant in the same situation would be far less successful. If you surrounded LeBron with the talent Kobe has, this wouldn't really be a conversation.

As far as MVP goes, it doesn't mean best player, or best player on the best team, it means who is the most important to team success. The Lakers have 4 all-star caliber players sans Kobe Bryant, two 20-10 seven footers, former defensive player of the year, and one of the best 6th men in the NBA who is also one of the most versatile players in the league, all coached by the arguable GOAT coach. That team probably wins 50+ and is a top four team in the NBA regardless. The Cavs minus LeBron go from contender to lottery team. They'd be led by Mo Williams and Mike Brown......It's pretty clear that LeBron is more valuable.

For the record, I am neither a fan of Kobe or LeBron, I'm a Knick fan. I don't particularly like either, and I don't think LeBron is coming to New York anyway. Just calling it the way I see it.

[Day in the Life]

Kobe Bryant isn't the MVP or the best player in the league, he's the best player on the best team, a very stacked team that would be dangerous even if he wasn't on it. LeBron James is the best player in the league, and even though he probably won't win the MVP, he should. LeBron is just flat out better than Kobe. He scores at the same volume with better efficiency, is a better passer and playmaker, better rebounder, and a better and more versatile defender. Kobe has had a more successful career, but look at all the great teammates he's had, he wasn't even the best player on his team for most of his career, not to mention he's had the GOAT coach.

It doesn't make sense that people knock LeBron for losing the the Magic. LeBron led the Cavs to 66 wins with Mo Williams as the second best player. Let that sink in for a second. Mo Williams, a nice player, but not all-star caliber. It's crazy that the Cavs won that many games that year. Kobe Bryant in the same situation would be far less successful. If you surrounded LeBron with the talent Kobe has, this wouldn't really be a conversation.

As far as MVP goes, it doesn't mean best player, or best player on the best team, it means who is the most important to team success. The Lakers have 4 all-star caliber players sans Kobe Bryant, two 20-10 seven footers, former defensive player of the year, and one of the best 6th men in the NBA who is also one of the most versatile players in the league, all coached by the arguable GOAT coach. That team probably wins 50+ and is a top four team in the NBA regardless. The Cavs minus LeBron go from contender to lottery team. They'd be led by Mo Williams and Mike Brown......It's pretty clear that LeBron is more valuable.

For the record, I am neither a fan of Kobe or LeBron, I'm a Knick fan. I don't particularly like either, and I don't think LeBron is coming to New York anyway. Just calling it the way I see it.

Grabbing a few more boards and dishing out a few more assists constitutes LeBron being a "flat out better" player than Kobe? I love how people try to constitute a little more stats as one being a better player over the other. Who would you want to give the ball to in the closing minutes if LeBron and Kobe were on the same team (IE: Olympics), there's no doubt in my mind the majority of the players on the same team and the coaching staff would draw a play for Kobe. Why is that?

Just because Lebron dominates the ball more and does the extra little things on a less stacked team does not make LeBron a flat out "better player". Kobe is still arguably a better man to man defender, a better jump shooter, a better 3 point shooter, a better post up player, hell, a better offensive player with a wider arsenal. It's obvious LeBron tried to improve his jumper and turnaround jumper to try and match Kobe's level in those areas. You can tell from the Olympics LeBrom became influenced from Kobe and how he played his game offensively.

[Bgil]

This really has got to suck for Kobe fans. After all his hard work this offseason, and his great play on the court, he's still getting completely dominated by The King by all statistical metrics out there. His significantly more talented team is only 2 games ahead in the standings despite playing the softest schedule in the league. No wonder the fanboys sound so frustrated. They have pretty much nothing tangible to point to somehow make an argument for Kobe>LeBron.

I'm sure Kobe is distraught every night when he checks Lebron's PER against his own.

[Bgil]

His last three games were better than anything Kobe put up against Detroit in the Finals, the first game was worse, the rest was on par.

If so, not by very much...LeBron was +21 in the series, Kobe was -39.

Why are you comparing 2004 Detroit with 2008 Boston? That's not really a fair comparison considering how much better Detroit was defensively and the massive difference in the perimeter contact officiating.

You do know that Kobe played against that same Boston team only a few weeks later than Lebron did, right?

p

Umm, you said Kobe never played as bad as LeBron in the playoffs...he did. And no, 2004 Detroit wasn't on entirely diferent level defensively. Even if they were, Kobe had Shaq, LeBron's second best player was Delonte West.

I do know that, those +/- are from their respective Boston series in 2008.

In the last two months of the season (basically after the acquired Rasheed) the Pistons held teams to about 77ppg on 40% shooting including 5 straight games holding their opponent under 70 points and 8 straight holding them under 80 points. That an entirely different level of defense.

And no, cherry picking Lebron's games does not make for a legit comparison to Kobe. Further your exaggerations about Lebron's supporting cast just weaken your argument. We all know Delonte is third or fourth best player on the Cavs (being generous to put him over Z and Andy).

[eatyourchildren]

This really has got to suck for Kobe fans. After all his hard work this offseason, and his great play on the court, he's still getting completely dominated by The King by all statistical metrics out there. His significantly more talented team is only 2 games ahead in the standings despite playing the softest schedule in the league. No wonder the fanboys sound so frustrated. They have pretty much nothing tangible to point to somehow make an argument for Kobe>LeBron.

I'm sure Kobe is distraught every night when he checks Lebron's PER against his own.

It's suuuuuuper frustrating losing the statistical argument. Thank god for real life wins and losses otherwise I'd have to get my noose ready.

[dropbowsonem_25]

how many finals wins do leading in PER and amassing statistical dominance get you?