2020 Pre-Draft Discussion

[DY_nasty]

Yeah, LaMelo wins the ball handling discussion but it far, far from an indicator of success at the NBA level.

I'm not even convinced he knows what a floppy is

What fantastic ball handlers busted out of the league? Not discrediting with you just wondering. It seems like the guards drafted in the top 5 that failed, failed because of lack of ball handling and playmaking

Normally ball handling alone doesn't get you into the top 5.

There was a while league of ball handlers without NBA chops, the And1 crew.

I guess I'm talking about guys who's greatest singular asset by a LARGE margin was their ballhandling skills

some scouts and gms almost always get hypnotized by it all and lose their minds

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

I'm not going to disagree ... but just think what a better handle could have done for a player like MKG. If he could have at least made good drives and dunked or even had a floater. Instead I lost count of the number of times he turned the ball over driving.

[James Gatz]

MCW

I may have watched him less than others but I saw every game he played for us. His handle was never a thing that I really noticed nor knew him to be known by.


Also MKG with an elite handle would have been so much fun.

[MasterIchiro]

I distinctly remember a boatload of MCW turnovers. He was a turnover machine who played out of control.

[driveandkick]

With all due respect for Deni or Obi or Haliburton, this isn't hard. Unless we are prepared to trade assets to move up, we are getting whoever is left of Edwards, Ball, or Wiseman. Us debating that Ball won't be a fit and we should take Wiseman instead is missing the point... we won't have a choice between them.

Kinda reminds me of the Manning/Leaf draft. Everyone kills SD for taking Leaf. They didn't have a choice. Indy took Manning first, there was no choice for SD. It works the other way too, Seattle doesn't get credit for choosing Durant. Portland picked Oden first. It will be the same for us. Unless we get bowled over with an offer from someone (like the Knicks), I think this draft for us will be determined for us, for better or worse.

I'm hoping we get lucky and the right guy drops to us. I myself hope its Edwards, but am happy that we got pick 3 so we can get a good player regardless.

I wouldn’t be totally shocked if this is the case, but I really don’t know if teams are as high on Wiseman as we think. I agree if we have a chance to draft Edwards or Ball they will be the choice. But Wiseman has so many questions. Dude looks stiff as a board, and we are watching right in front of us even the best centers in the NBA getting played off the floor during these playoffs.

Maybe Mitch loves Wiseman, we have no idea. But he’s a player I won’t be remotely surprised to see fall out of the top 5. I also won’t be surprised if he goes #2. I’m not sure if it’s as cut and dry as you think. There’s some stuff floating around that we are super high on Deni. Won’t be surprised at all if we take Deni or Hayes over Wiseman.

[MasterIchiro]

With all due respect for Deni or Obi or Haliburton, this isn't hard. Unless we are prepared to trade assets to move up, we are getting whoever is left of Edwards, Ball, or Wiseman. Us debating that Ball won't be a fit and we should take Wiseman instead is missing the point... we won't have a choice between them.

Kinda reminds me of the Manning/Leaf draft. Everyone kills SD for taking Leaf. They didn't have a choice. Indy took Manning first, there was no choice for SD. It works the other way too, Seattle doesn't get credit for choosing Durant. Portland picked Oden first. It will be the same for us. Unless we get bowled over with an offer from someone (like the Knicks), I think this draft for us will be determined for us, for better or worse.

I'm hoping we get lucky and the right guy drops to us. I myself hope its Edwards, but am happy that we got pick 3 so we can get a good player regardless.

I wouldn’t be totally shocked if this is the case, but I really don’t know if teams are as high on Wiseman as we think. I agree if we have a chance to draft Edwards or Ball they will be the choice. But Wiseman has so many questions. Dude looks stiff as a board, and we are watching right in front of us even the best centers in the NBA getting played off the floor during these playoffs.

Maybe Mitch loves Wiseman, we have no idea. But he’s a player I won’t be remotely surprised to see fall out of the top 5. I also won’t be surprised if he goes #2. I’m not sure if it’s as cut and dry as you think. There’s some stuff floating around that we are super high on Deni. Won’t be surprised at all if we take Deni or Hayes over Wiseman.

Where did you see the stuff about Deni? That's interesting. I agree Wiseman is a prime suspect to fall out of the top 5.

1 - KAT
2 - Rumored not high on him, not known for investing heavily in centers
3 - Kupchak tried to sign WCS for MLE. A cheap solution. Balked at demands for Gasol when asking price was rumored not close to a high lotto pick.
4 - WCJ
5 - Drummond
6 - Capela
7 - Pistons, maybe but they really need a PG and Haliburton may be available here or Hayes
8 - Robinson
9 - Wizards

I'd say if Kupchak passes on Wiseman he goes either 7 or 9. He's pushing Jaxson Hayes territory.

[LofJ]

Unless Ball is there at 2 I think Golden State is really going to struggle to find an acceptable trade. I think they may have to pick someone with the possibility they'll be on their roster next season. That changes things, I wouldn't be shocked if they picked Avdija at 2.

[Braggins]

we are watching right in front of us even the best centers in the NBA getting played off the floor during these playoffs.

2019/2020 playoffs
Rudy Gobert - 38.0 mpg
Nikola Jokic - 37.6 mpg
Myles Turner - 36.5 mpg
Nikola Vucevic - 36.3 mpg
Joel Embiid - 36.3 mpg
Bam Adebayo - 34.3 mpg
Jarrett Allen - 33.0 mpg
Kristaps Porzingis - 31.3 mpg (was ejected in one of the games)
Jusuf Nurkic - 31.0 mpg (Whiteside - 22.5 mpg)
Brook Lopez - 31.0 mpg
Steven Adams - 30.0 mpg

[MasterIchiro]

Unless Ball is there at 2 I think Golden State is really going to struggle to find an acceptable trade. I think they may have to pick someone with the possibility they'll be on their roster next season. That changes things, I wouldn't be shocked if they picked Avdija at 2.

Avdija or Toppin.

I want Edwards - Toppin - Avdija in that order. If Edwards is gone, I want Toppin - Avdija - Haliburton. I hope Kupchak likes one of these 4. I'd be happy with any of them.

[MasterIchiro]

we are watching right in front of us even the best centers in the NBA getting played off the floor during these playoffs.

2019/2020 playoffs
Rudy Gobert - 38.0 mpg
Nikola Jokic - 37.6 mpg
Myles Turner - 36.5 mpg
Nikola Vucevic - 36.3 mpg
Joel Embiid - 36.3 mpg
Bam Adebayo - 34.3 mpg
Jarrett Allen - 33.0 mpg
Kristaps Porzingis - 31.3 mpg (was ejected in one of the games)
Jusuf Nurkic - 31.0 mpg (Whiteside - 22.5 mpg)
Brook Lopez - 31.0 mpg
Steven Adams - 30.0 mpg

Almost all of these are looking like first round knockouts, man. So they are getting played off the floor, Broseph.

[driveandkick]

we are watching right in front of us even the best centers in the NBA getting played off the floor during these playoffs.

2019/2020 playoffs
Rudy Gobert - 38.0 mpg
Nikola Jokic - 37.6 mpg
Myles Turner - 36.5 mpg
Nikola Vucevic - 36.3 mpg
Joel Embiid - 36.3 mpg
Bam Adebayo - 34.3 mpg
Jarrett Allen - 33.0 mpg
Kristaps Porzingis - 31.3 mpg (was ejected in one of the games)
Jusuf Nurkic - 31.0 mpg (Whiteside - 22.5 mpg)
Brook Lopez - 31.0 mpg
Steven Adams - 30.0 mpg

You're proving my point lol. Jokic is on his way home, Turner is already home, Vucevic is home, Embiid is home, Allen is home, Nurkic is almost home, etc. The obvious exceptions on this list are Gobert and Bam. Gobert is arguably the best defensive player in the league, Bam can defend multiple positions and is a good passer. These are the only two players in the list that are actively helping a team win in the playoffs right now. And I say this as someone that absolutely loves Jokic, but Utah's shooting is just killing Denver this series I really don't know what you do with Jokic right now. That said... I just saw a video of Wiseman on twitter crossing up some due on the perimeter, beating him with ease and slamming it home so it raised some eyebrows lol

[driveandkick]

With all due respect for Deni or Obi or Haliburton, this isn't hard. Unless we are prepared to trade assets to move up, we are getting whoever is left of Edwards, Ball, or Wiseman. Us debating that Ball won't be a fit and we should take Wiseman instead is missing the point... we won't have a choice between them.

Kinda reminds me of the Manning/Leaf draft. Everyone kills SD for taking Leaf. They didn't have a choice. Indy took Manning first, there was no choice for SD. It works the other way too, Seattle doesn't get credit for choosing Durant. Portland picked Oden first. It will be the same for us. Unless we get bowled over with an offer from someone (like the Knicks), I think this draft for us will be determined for us, for better or worse.

I'm hoping we get lucky and the right guy drops to us. I myself hope its Edwards, but am happy that we got pick 3 so we can get a good player regardless.

I wouldn’t be totally shocked if this is the case, but I really don’t know if teams are as high on Wiseman as we think. I agree if we have a chance to draft Edwards or Ball they will be the choice. But Wiseman has so many questions. Dude looks stiff as a board, and we are watching right in front of us even the best centers in the NBA getting played off the floor during these playoffs.

Maybe Mitch loves Wiseman, we have no idea. But he’s a player I won’t be remotely surprised to see fall out of the top 5. I also won’t be surprised if he goes #2. I’m not sure if it’s as cut and dry as you think. There’s some stuff floating around that we are super high on Deni. Won’t be surprised at all if we take Deni or Hayes over Wiseman.

Where did you see the stuff about Deni? That's interesting. I agree Wiseman is a prime suspect to fall out of the top 5.

1 - KAT
2 - Rumored not high on him, not known for investing heavily in centers
3 - Kupchak tried to sign WCS for MLE. A cheap solution. Balked at demands for Gasol when asking price was rumored not close to a high lotto pick.
4 - WCJ
5 - Drummond
6 - Capela
7 - Pistons, maybe but they really need a PG and Haliburton may be available here or Hayes
8 - Robinson
9 - Wizards

I'd say if Kupchak passes on Wiseman he goes either 7 or 9. He's pushing Jaxson Hayes territory.

User @NataTheScribe on twitter today said "Just a Feeling. I think the Hornets have this guy [Avdija] at the top of their board. That said, I do not believe they're alone." Then he responded to a user saying "there's a reason I feel really confident about this." He's one of the hosts of the Locked on Hornets podcast and has been covering the team in some capacity for a couple of years now. Not sure if he actually knows anyone in the building or he's just trying to piece stuff together. His first tweet said "just a feeling" then he goes on to tease "there's a reason I feel really confident about this" so who knows. But if there is any rumor out there right now I will find it lmao.

[MasterIchiro]

If the Warriors are the other team with Avdija atop their board, then that means Edwards falls (Ball and his trade value mainly to the Knicks would have to be gone for Warriors to take Avdija).

In this scenario we get Edwards. If the Warriors select Edwards we get Avdija.

So maybe it's down to Edwards or Avdija, the one who falls past the Warriors.

[MasterIchiro]

Either (Edwards or Avdija) could challenge Miles Bridges' long term place on this team btw. Maybe PJ is safe from Toppin.

[Braggins]

we are watching right in front of us even the best centers in the NBA getting played off the floor during these playoffs.

2019/2020 playoffs
Rudy Gobert - 38.0 mpg
Nikola Jokic - 37.6 mpg
Myles Turner - 36.5 mpg
Nikola Vucevic - 36.3 mpg
Joel Embiid - 36.3 mpg
Bam Adebayo - 34.3 mpg
Jarrett Allen - 33.0 mpg
Kristaps Porzingis - 31.3 mpg (was ejected in one of the games)
Jusuf Nurkic - 31.0 mpg (Whiteside - 22.5 mpg)
Brook Lopez - 31.0 mpg
Steven Adams - 30.0 mpg

Almost all of these are looking like first round knockouts, man. So they are getting played off the floor, Broseph.

Lol, Gobert and Jokic are playing against each other, so one of them is going to the 2nd round. Turners team is missing their 2nd best player to injury and their best player just returned from a brutal knee injury and surgery a couple weeks ago. Vucevic's team just isn't good and is playing the Bucks. Embiid plays on a poorly constructed roster with a bad coach and their other all-star is out with an injury. Bam Adebayo won his series in a sweep. Jarrett Allen is on a bad team playing against the Raptors. Porzingis's team is only down 2-3 against the Clippers with two of their three losses coming in a game he was ejected after 19 minutes and the other he didn't play because of injury. Nurkic is only down 2-3 against the Lebron Lakers and was only an 8th seed being forced to go against the Lakers because he missed the entire regular season to injury. Lopez is about to win his series 4-1. Adams is tied 2-2 in his series.

So, out of 11 players listed, three have already won or definitely will win their series, one is tied 2-2, two are down 2-3 and could still possibly win, and 5 have lost or will lose. Of the teams that have or will definitely lose, two of them are dealing with major injury issues. One of the teams down 2-3 is dealing with a significant injury that has affected the series. Also, there are 16 teams total in this round, so 8 of them have to lose by definition, and even if every listed players team thats still in contention loses that would mean 3 of the 8 winners from this round will be players that play a center 30+ mpg. If one of the teams thats 2-2 or 2-3 right now wins it will be an even split of series wins between teams that play a center 30+ mpg and teams that dont. Either way, the claim that the best centers are being played off the floor simply isn't true and no one who was actually paying attention to the games would claim that.

You have one of the worst confirmation bias Ive ever seen.

[MasterIchiro]

2019/2020 playoffs
Rudy Gobert - 38.0 mpg
Nikola Jokic - 37.6 mpg
Myles Turner - 36.5 mpg
Nikola Vucevic - 36.3 mpg
Joel Embiid - 36.3 mpg
Bam Adebayo - 34.3 mpg
Jarrett Allen - 33.0 mpg
Kristaps Porzingis - 31.3 mpg (was ejected in one of the games)
Jusuf Nurkic - 31.0 mpg (Whiteside - 22.5 mpg)
Brook Lopez - 31.0 mpg
Steven Adams - 30.0 mpg

Almost all of these are looking like first round knockouts, man. So they are getting played off the floor, Broseph.

Lol, Gobert and Jokic are playing against each other, so one of them is going to the 2nd round. Turners team is missing their 2nd best player to injury and their best player just returned from a brutal knee injury and surgery a couple weeks ago. Vucevic's team just isn't good and is playing the Bucks. Embiid plays on a poorly constructed roster with a bad coach and their other all-star is out with an injury. Bam Adebayo won his series in a sweep. Jarrett Allen is on a bad team playing against the Raptors. Porzingis's team is only down 2-3 against the Clippers with two of their three losses coming in a game he was ejected after 19 minutes and the other he didn't play because of injury. Nurkic is only down 2-3 against the Lebron Lakers and was only an 8th seed being forced to go against the Lakers because he missed the entire regular season to injury. Lopez is about to win his series 4-1. Adams is tied 2-2 in his series.

So, out of 11 players listed, three have already won or definitely will win their series, one is tied 2-2, two are down 2-3 and could still possibly win, and 5 have lost or will lose. Of the teams that have or will definitely lose, two of them are dealing with major injury issues. One of the teams down 2-3 is dealing with a significant injury that has affected the series. Also, there are 16 teams total in this round, so 8 of them have to lose by definition, and even if every listed players team thats still in contention loses that would mean 3 of the 8 winners from this round will be players that play a center 30+ mpg. If one of the teams thats 2-2 or 2-3 right now wins it will be an even split of series wins between teams that play a center 30+ mpg and teams that dont.

You have one of the worst confirmation bias I've ever seen.

You've already been told twice now upthread.

[Braggins]

Almost all of these are looking like first round knockouts, man. So they are getting played off the floor, Broseph.

Lol, Gobert and Jokic are playing against each other, so one of them is going to the 2nd round. Turners team is missing their 2nd best player to injury and their best player just returned from a brutal knee injury and surgery a couple weeks ago. Vucevic's team just isn't good and is playing the Bucks. Embiid plays on a poorly constructed roster with a bad coach and their other all-star is out with an injury. Bam Adebayo won his series in a sweep. Jarrett Allen is on a bad team playing against the Raptors. Porzingis's team is only down 2-3 against the Clippers with two of their three losses coming in a game he was ejected after 19 minutes and the other he didn't play because of injury. Nurkic is only down 2-3 against the Lebron Lakers and was only an 8th seed being forced to go against the Lakers because he missed the entire regular season to injury. Lopez is about to win his series 4-1. Adams is tied 2-2 in his series.

So, out of 11 players listed, three have already won or definitely will win their series, one is tied 2-2, two are down 2-3 and could still possibly win, and 5 have lost or will lose. Of the teams that have or will definitely lose, two of them are dealing with major injury issues. One of the teams down 2-3 is dealing with a significant injury that has affected the series. Also, there are 16 teams total in this round, so 8 of them have to lose by definition, and even if every listed players team thats still in contention loses that would mean 3 of the 8 winners from this round will be players that play a center 30+ mpg. If one of the teams thats 2-2 or 2-3 right now wins it will be an even split of series wins between teams that play a center 30+ mpg and teams that dont.

You have one of the worst confirmation bias I've ever seen.

You've already been told twice now upthread.

Lol, this is why I normally just ignore your posts.

[MasterIchiro]

Out of the 11. ELEVEN. Only Bam and Gobert and Lopez are definitely advancing. The rest of your post is a blend of excuses and hope that your point isn't completely decapitated. So who has confirmation bias and is long winded at the same time?

[Braggins]

we are watching right in front of us even the best centers in the NBA getting played off the floor during these playoffs.

2019/2020 playoffs
Rudy Gobert - 38.0 mpg
Nikola Jokic - 37.6 mpg
Myles Turner - 36.5 mpg
Nikola Vucevic - 36.3 mpg
Joel Embiid - 36.3 mpg
Bam Adebayo - 34.3 mpg
Jarrett Allen - 33.0 mpg
Kristaps Porzingis - 31.3 mpg (was ejected in one of the games)
Jusuf Nurkic - 31.0 mpg (Whiteside - 22.5 mpg)
Brook Lopez - 31.0 mpg
Steven Adams - 30.0 mpg

You're proving my point lol. Jokic is on his way home, Turner is already home, Vucevic is home, Embiid is home, Allen is home, Nurkic is almost home, etc. The obvious exceptions on this list are Gobert and Bam. Gobert is arguably the best defensive player in the league, Bam can defend multiple positions and is a good passer. These are the only two players in the list that are actively helping a team win in the playoffs right now. And I say this as someone that absolutely loves Jokic, but Utah's shooting is just killing Denver this series I really don't know what you do with Jokic right now. That said... I just saw a video of Wiseman on twitter crossing up some due on the perimeter, beating him with ease and slamming it home so it raised some eyebrows lol

Even if Adams, Nurkic, and Porzingis, end up losing their series, that still means 3 of the 8 winners from this round were teams that played an individual center big minutes and some of the other 5 teams that will have won still play most of the game with a center, but have a center by committee rotation instead of one guy getting most of the minutes.

Its also not a black and white issue where there is complete direct causation between a team winning and whether or not they play a lot of minutes with centers, even if there is a slight correlation. The best centers aren't getting played off the court in terms of the amount of minutes they are getting and they are performing well individually. I don't think its fair to say across the board that ones that are going to end up losing are going to lose because of their center. Jokic is putting up 26/8/5 on 63%ts and a +5.6 box plus minus. Embiid put up 30/13 on 60%ts with a +6.2 bpm.

[MasterIchiro]

I will be LOL when Theis strolls out for the opening tip vs. McGee in the NBA Finals.