We Are Stuck With Him - The Lance Stephenson Thread II

[BeesWax]

I think you are remembering completely wrong or your rose colored glasses are in your way. Lance played in 11 4th quarters in 17 games in November while fat slow Al played in 14. The three he did not play in were all the blowouts. Lance played in one of those and missed the other two. That still leaves 4 other 4th quarters when he did not sniff the court while Al loafed his way around. So yes Clifford screwed up here by setting a massive double standard about "effort".

Rose colored glasses? It's simple math - if Lance was getting benched in the fourth, he must have been playing significantly more minutes in the other three quarters to average the same number of minutes as Al.

Not super interested in reliving our debates about November, but I still maintain that you can't blame Lance's 19% 3PT% on Cliff.

You can't blame that only on Clifford but I think the coach does have to share the blame for being terrible about fitting players into his system. Also holding players to 700 different standards does not help him. Between what he did to Biz and Lance he had to have lost some credibility.

[yosemiteben]

You can't blame that only on Clifford but I think the coach does have to share the blame for being terrible about fitting players into his system. Also holding players to 700 different standards does not help him. Between what he did to Biz and Lance he had to have lost some credibility.

That's a fair stance. I'll just point out that whatever Cliff did to Lance, he still got 32 MPG, yet Biz kept a good attitude and then hugely capitalized when he got the opportunity. Lance did the opposite.

[BeesWax]

You can't blame that only on Clifford but I think the coach does have to share the blame for being terrible about fitting players into his system. Also holding players to 700 different standards does not help him. Between what he did to Biz and Lance he had to have lost some credibility.

That's a fair stance. I'll just point out that whatever Cliff did to Lance, he still got 32 MPG, yet Biz kept a good attitude and then hugely capitalized when he got the opportunity. Lance did the opposite.

Oh there is definitely a lot of blame to go on Lance. But lets be honest if you were going to publicly mess with players and punish them, which he did to both, how would you think it works out? Biz is always in a good mood and I had faith once Clifford got his head out of his butt that Biz would show up and play well because he always seems excited and ready. Lance on the other hand has always been a bit of a head case and showing him up in front of everyone like that then calling him out was never the recipe for success there. As a coach you have to know your team and how player will react to different things. I am not sure Clifford understands that aspect as well as we would like. If a guy who has a bit of a fragile ego is obviously slighted and treated worse than another player it is very likely going to end poorly.

Now hopefully Lance won't have people asking him about other teams and will be able to settle in and get his head right. I still think he can be productive if coached properly and put in the right situations. I think getting out of the slump with being moved hanging over his head was a little much for a young player who is really struggling for the first time. Lets see how he does now that all he has to do is play and he knows where he will be playing.

[yosemiteben]

I'll just say that we can disagree with how Cliff handled Lance, but what Cliff said was 100% accurate. Lance is not a star. He is not consistent. He often lacks effort. He needs to prove himself to be a consistent contributor before he gets the benefit of having us design our offense around him.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Cliff started benching Lance during the 4th later in the year I think, not to start the season.

That said Cliff is clearly the wrong coach for Lance ... and Lance is the wrong kind of player for Cliff's system and personality both. It's very much a mutual mismatch.

[BeesWax]

I'll just say that we can disagree with how Cliff handled Lance, but what Cliff said was 100% accurate. Lance is not a star. He is not consistent. He often lacks effort. He needs to prove himself to be a consistent contributor before he gets the benefit of having us design our offense around him.

We don't have a star on this roster right now. Nobody is good enough to get away with loafing and so when Al did and Lance didn't that was a terrible call. Letting the "star" player who is not really a star get treated amazingly while calling out another for effort was just bad form. None of our players right now are consistent and all of them could use being benched when they are not giving max effort. The problem forms when some are called out for not giving effort and others are completely overlooked.

Now that Biz played better during Al's down time it looks like Al is actually going to try. Lance on the other hand has been Clifford's dumping ground because of his poor play. Some of it is on the coach and some on the player. They are indeed a poor match but in my opinion the coach does not have to build a system around a player to help them be successful. Not placing the blame all on a young player when you can't figure things out and your "best" player is out of shape and lazy would be a start.

[yosemiteben]

Not placing the blame all on a young player when you can't figure things out and your "best" player is out of shape and lazy would be a start.

He hasn't done that. He's pretty much tried to give Lance free reign on the second unit while constantly trying to reign in expectations to decrease the pressure he's facing and Lance hasn't improved AT ALL. Lance has been dog **** all year. I don't care how he was treated in November, at some point it's on Lance to pick up his game.

A lot of games have been played and time has passed since Lance was benched in the 4th a couple times back in November. Time to move on from this, "Poor Lance, Cliff is a big meanie" take.

[BeesWax]

Not placing the blame all on a young player when you can't figure things out and your "best" player is out of shape and lazy would be a start.

He hasn't done that. He's pretty much tried to give Lance free reign on the second unit while constantly trying to reign in expectations to decrease the pressure he's facing and Lance hasn't improved AT ALL. Lance has been dog **** all year. I don't care how he was treated in November, at some point it's on Lance to pick up his game.

A lot of games have been played and time has passed since Lance was benched in the 4th a couple times back in November. Time to move on from this, "Poor Lance, Cliff is a big meanie" take.

Or it is time for you to realize where the blame should partially go. A coach made a stupid call and called out a player and put him down in the media. That was just stupid and there is no other way to slice it. He could have saved it for behind closed doors but putting him down in public was his call.

I do not like that Lance has struggled and I figure a lot of it is mental. Some of that is he needs to grow up and some of it is his coach needs to learn to handle players and media better. Clifford is as young at being the head coach as Lance is at being a solid player. Both of them screwed this up but the problem is only Lance is suffering for it because guys like you want to kiss Clifford's butt instead of calling out when he makes mistakes. It is not like he should get fired over this but man he needs to learn from it.

[yosemiteben]

Both of them screwed this up but the problem is only Lance is suffering for it because guys like you want to kiss Clifford's butt instead of calling out when he makes mistakes. It is not like he should get fired over this but man he needs to learn from it.

It is mid-February. If Lance's terrible play is attributable to his coach benching him for lack of effort in a couple fourth quarters like three months ago, then that is on Lance. I'm not going to say that Cliff should've used kid gloves with Lance. Everyone else on our team has gotten with the program.

Again, our players rave about how Cliff treats them. I'm not making that up, that's not Cliff flattery, that's what every member of our team has said since he's been here. Even the folks that want to slam Cliff for his rotations or whatever still acknowledge that the team buys in to his approach and that's why we've been at all successful. On what basis has Lance earned the right to argue that Cliff is the one that needs to improve his team relationship skills?

[Braggins]

You can't blame that only on Clifford but I think the coach does have to share the blame for being terrible about fitting players into his system. Also holding players to 700 different standards does not help him. Between what he did to Biz and Lance he had to have lost some credibility.

That's a fair stance. I'll just point out that whatever Cliff did to Lance, he still got 32 MPG, yet Biz kept a good attitude and then hugely capitalized when he got the opportunity. Lance did the opposite.

Oh there is definitely a lot of blame to go on Lance. But lets be honest if you were going to publicly mess with players and punish them, which he did to both, how would you think it works out? Biz is always in a good mood and I had faith once Clifford got his head out of his butt that Biz would show up and play well because he always seems excited and ready. Lance on the other hand has always been a bit of a head case and showing him up in front of everyone like that then calling him out was never the recipe for success there. As a coach you have to know your team and how player will react to different things. I am not sure Clifford understands that aspect as well as we would like. If a guy who has a bit of a fragile ego is obviously slighted and treated worse than another player it is very likely going to end poorly.

Now hopefully Lance won't have people asking him about other teams and will be able to settle in and get his head right. I still think he can be productive if coached properly and put in the right situations. I think getting out of the slump with being moved hanging over his head was a little much for a young player who is really struggling for the first time. Lets see how he does now that all he has to do is play and he knows where he will be playing.

This beautifully sums up how I feel about the situation. Biz wasn't affected by it, but Lance isn't Biz and it was obvious that the way Clifford handled the Lance situation and the double standard was strictly the incorrect way to handle the situation. It doesn't matter if what Clifford said about Lance was true either, because there was no reason for him to say it when Lance is the kind of player that is clearly going to be negatively affected but such things. I am fine with Clifford benching him when he was getting out of control, but there were plenty of times he was just arbitrarily benched in the fourth quarter for scrubs like Neal and Roberts, even when he was playing fine and they were playing awful, and some of those times were the terrible late 3rd and 4th quarter leads that we blew. Al was playing disgustingly lazy and selfish basketball the entire time and not only never got benched, but was force fed minutes and touches through injuries and was publicly deemed untouchable by the franchise while Lance was being aggressively shopped only a couple months into the season. Everyone involved in this situation has handled it terribly, including Lance, but all parties seem to be making an effort to work things out so there is still a slight glimmer of hope.

[yosemiteben]

Again, we're talking about November. Three months ago. Lance has not improved. at. all. since then.

[BeesWax]

Both of them screwed this up but the problem is only Lance is suffering for it because guys like you want to kiss Clifford's butt instead of calling out when he makes mistakes. It is not like he should get fired over this but man he needs to learn from it.

It is mid-February. If Lance's terrible play is attributable to his coach benching him for lack of effort in a couple fourth quarters like three months ago, then that is on Lance. I'm not going to say that Cliff should've used kid gloves with Lance. Everyone else on our team has gotten with the program.

Again, our players rave about how Cliff treats them. I'm not making that up, that's not Cliff flattery, that's what every member of our team has said since he's been here. Even the folks that want to slam Cliff for his rotations or whatever still acknowledge that the team buys in to his approach and that's why we've been at all successful. On what basis has Lance earned the right to argue that Cliff is the one that needs to improve his team relationship skills?

What other player have we ever had like Lance? We have a team with a very singular type of personality and that was fine. I do not remember Clifford saying Al was not a star and had no right to come to camp out of shape. When did he do this? I am just trying to figure out when he treated the other guys the way he has treated Lance. IF he called out the flaws of the other players in public they may not be as big a fan of his. He made mistakes and that is ok to admit. He just needs to learn from them and not make them again. All jobs have a learning curve where you mess up but the key is not to do it again.

[yosemiteben]

What other player have we ever had like Lance? We have a team with a very singular type of personality and that was fine.

Lance is the one that needs to buy in to what we have here. I don't want Cliff to enable Lance's BS. If Lance can't buy in, he needs to go.

We've probably about covered all the points here. I just don't think Cliff benching Lance was a mistake. Maybe he should've benched Al too, but the mistake was not in how he treated Lance.

[BeesWax]

I am not and never had said it was how he treated Lance but that he treated him differently from everyone else. Some players respond well to that but there is nothing in Lance's history that says he was going to go well for being called out while others are not.

The fault is not in benching Lance for lack of effort. Everyone should be benched if they are not trying but leaving others out there who are giving even less effort and then calling Lance and Lance alone out for it was just a mistake. Lance needs to grow up and get over it because it is done and we can't change it now but Clifford also needs to learn about how he does things.

Hopefully in the second half they will both have put this behind them and we will see new stuff out of both.

[yosemiteben]

I am not and never had said it was how he treated Lance but that he treated him differently from everyone else. Some players respond well to that but there is nothing in Lance's history that says he was going to go well for being called out while others are not.

Lance coming to town was a huge deal. He struggled. Cliff was asked about it, and he said that Lance has to prove himself, that he wasn't a star like PG over in Indy but people expected him to come in and put up huge numbers and there was too much pressure on him.

It was the softest, most understanding call out I've ever heard.

[BeesWax]

I am not and never had said it was how he treated Lance but that he treated him differently from everyone else. Some players respond well to that but there is nothing in Lance's history that says he was going to go well for being called out while others are not.

Lance coming to town was a huge deal. He struggled. Cliff was asked about it, and he said that Lance has to prove himself, that he wasn't a star like PG over in Indy but people expected him to come in and put up huge numbers and there was too much pressure on him.

It was the softest, most understanding call out I've ever heard.

He also talked about his effort when asked about him not playing in some 4th quarters. That was where the mistake was because we had other guys loafing around out there during that time. For me it has always been treating players evenly because we really don't have any stars on this team right now.

[yosemiteben]

He also talked about his effort when asked about him not playing in some 4th quarters. That was where the mistake was because we had other guys loafing around out there during that time. For me it has always been treating players evenly because we really don't have any stars on this team right now.

So benching him for lack of effort wasn't the problem, saying in a post-game presser the honest reason for benching him was? He's always been candid in those pressers.

[BeesWax]

He also talked about his effort when asked about him not playing in some 4th quarters. That was where the mistake was because we had other guys loafing around out there during that time. For me it has always been treating players evenly because we really don't have any stars on this team right now.

So benching him for lack of effort wasn't the problem, saying in a post-game presser the honest reason for benching him was? He's always been candid in those pressers.

I think for the most part we agree on these things. I again have no problem calling him out but playing Al and not commenting on the guy who was putting in an All-Star level lack of effort was. Maybe the fault was on the media for not asking why in the world Al was even allowed in the building if effort was such an issue.

I mean if someone came to your work and put down what you did while leaving a colleague, who was very obviously doing the same thing much worse alone, how would you feel? I have no problem calling someone out but if he wants to be candid and fair then everyone needs to be treated the same.

At this point the turning it around is fully on Lance. There is no way to undo what Clifford messed up so Lance just has to grow up. Hopefully they have a meeting talk it out and can move on in a positive direction.

[Eoghan]

I definitely empathize with Lance feeling a double standard. At the time of Cliff's comments, Lance was leading the team in rebounds and averaging as many assists as Kemba. He mostly just shot terribly and turned the ball over too much but the whole team was doing that so it's like singling out Lance as the stinkiest turd in the septic tank. Kemba, Al, Gary, and Brian were all shooting bad and might as well given medals, Lance got insulted.

I don't think it is completely intentional on Clifford but he definitely needs to be less candid and more tactful in front of the press.

[mrknowitall215]

I don't know how people can dare try to defend Stephenson's play. Talk about empty stats --- dislike Al Jefferson --- but defend Lance Stephenson. Oh, the irony