RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[playa-hater]

6x titles (double threepeating) > 4x titles via ring chasing

Hate to agree with a Raptor fan, but it really is that simple. Especially the Ring chasing part. Does Lebron win a ring without a single Ring chase?? Maybe. But 20+ seasons and barely a title = Not better than Jordan.

[bledredwine]

The stats are also ****ing wrong. Idk why Jordan fans keep fabricating stats. It’s weird and needs to stop.

You also might be misreading it as it's deceptive. It says "after turning 40", not the bball reference season for 40 years old.

It's oddly cherry picked just like Lebron fan posts of "first 13 seasons in the playoffs, wins" and that sort of garbage.

I mean if you guys are completely okay fabricating stats more power to you, but in the real world that’s insulting and completely dishonest not just to LBJ but MJ as well. Liars like the OG poster of that tweet will get called out every time. Integrity should still matter in this day and age, despite clowns running the circus elsewhere.

lol, we're not "fabricating stats" but I get it- it's a desperate debate. for Lebron so use whatever smokescreen you need to use.

[bledredwine]

6x titles (double threepeating) > 4x titles via ring chasing

Hate to agree with a Raptor fan, but it really is that simple. Especially the Ring chasing part. Does Lebron win a ring without a single Ring chase?? Maybe. But 20+ seasons and barely a title = Not better than Jordan.

Yep.

Jordan just happens to dominate Lebron in much ore as well. It's all a reflection of him simply being
a better. more dominant player on both ends of the court. Lebron fans can be insufferable and tend to speak in generalities or polar opposite, hyper specific cherry picking.

[DOT]

6x titles (double threepeating) > 4x titles via ring chasing

Hate to agree with a Raptor fan, but it really is that simple. Especially the Ring chasing part. Does Lebron win a ring without a single Ring chase?? Maybe. But 20+ seasons and barely a title = Not better than Jordan.

If MJ were drafted to the Cavs in 2003 and never left, he also doesn't win a single ring.

[playa-hater]

6x titles (double threepeating) > 4x titles via ring chasing

Hate to agree with a Raptor fan, but it really is that simple. Especially the Ring chasing part. Does Lebron win a ring without a single Ring chase?? Maybe. But 20+ seasons and barely a title = Not better than Jordan.

If MJ were drafted to the Cavs in 2003 and never left, he also doesn't win a single ring.

And you know that how?

[DOT]

Hate to agree with a Raptor fan, but it really is that simple. Especially the Ring chasing part. Does Lebron win a ring without a single Ring chase?? Maybe. But 20+ seasons and barely a title = Not better than Jordan.

If MJ were drafted to the Cavs in 2003 and never left, he also doesn't win a single ring.

And you know that how?

Well considering you think you can just make stuff up and call it fact, I can too, no?

[RRR3]

If MJ were drafted to the Cavs in 2003 and never left, he also doesn't win a single ring.

And you know that how?

Well considering you think you can just make stuff up and call it fact, I can too, no?

How did you end up being a fan of a different city for each major sport lol

[Iwasawitness]

6x titles (double threepeating) > 4x titles via ring chasing

Hate to agree with a Raptor fan, but it really is that simple. Especially the Ring chasing part. Does Lebron win a ring without a single Ring chase?? Maybe. But 20+ seasons and barely a title = Not better than Jordan.

Does Jordan win a single title if he doesn’t have Pippen?

[MavsDirk41]

6x titles (double threepeating) > 4x titles via ring chasing

Hate to agree with a Raptor fan, but it really is that simple. Especially the Ring chasing part. Does Lebron win a ring without a single Ring chase?? Maybe. But 20+ seasons and barely a title = Not better than Jordan.

If MJ were drafted to the Cavs in 2003 and never left, he also doesn't win a single ring.

If James was drafted by Chicago in 1984 does he stick around for Pippen and Grant to develop? Can he succeed playing for Phil Jackson? Would he mesh with Pippen? Works both ways….

[SlimShady83]

Watch on YouTube

[Ainosterhaspie]

Hate to agree with a Raptor fan, but it really is that simple. Especially the Ring chasing part. Does Lebron win a ring without a single Ring chase?? Maybe. But 20+ seasons and barely a title = Not better than Jordan.

If MJ were drafted to the Cavs in 2003 and never left, he also doesn't win a single ring.

If James was drafted by Chicago in 1984 does he stick around for Pippen and Grant to develop? Can he succeed playing for Phil Jackson? Would he mesh with Pippen? Works both ways….

Jordan got those guys year 4. By year 7 they had won a title. LeBron stayed in Cleveland 7 years, so yes, LeBron would have stayed.

[michaelm]

If MJ were drafted to the Cavs in 2003 and never left, he also doesn't win a single ring.

If James was drafted by Chicago in 1984 does he stick around for Pippen and Grant to develop? Can he succeed playing for Phil Jackson? Would he mesh with Pippen? Works both ways….

Jordan got those guys year 4. By year 7 they had won a title. LeBron stayed in Cleveland 7 years, so yes, LeBron would have stayed.

The thread has devolved down into fundamentally meaningless arguments about hypotheticals, started by a Jordan partisan in this case.

If I want to play though you can’t know whether Chicago could/would have built around young LeBron as they did around Jordan, whether Pippen would have become the player he did next to LeBron, whether LeBron would have acceded to the triangle offense etc. LeBron also lost elsewhere the 8th year with a strong team. On the other hand people say Jordan was close to looking elsewhere.

Some of my personal caveats on LeBron are currently being answered though. Reaves did develop next to him at the Lakers where he has stayed long enough for this to occur, and he is playing a less heliocentric game plan next to a player of Luka’s quality. Current moderately healthy Luka is however probably better than anyone Jordan played with including Pippen.

[MavsDirk41]

If MJ were drafted to the Cavs in 2003 and never left, he also doesn't win a single ring.

If James was drafted by Chicago in 1984 does he stick around for Pippen and Grant to develop? Can he succeed playing for Phil Jackson? Would he mesh with Pippen? Works both ways….

Jordan got those guys year 4. By year 7 they had won a title. LeBron stayed in Cleveland 7 years, so yes, LeBron would have stayed.

Even if so does he succeed under Phill Jackson? Could he have played in Tex Winters triangle offense? If not, how would Pippen and Grant developed? Total unknowns.

[michaelm]

Jordan was super competitive and LeBron is super competitive. I don't get what more needs to be said on the matter.

Yep. This is the way.

They're both amazing players, legends of basketball who changed the meta of the sport.

They both dominated games in their own way. They were both fun to love, fun to hate, and insane to watch.

They'll never play each other, let alone in their primes. They both faced different competition and different strategies.

They both took different routes to greatness, each defining their eras and becoming THE face of the league.

Comparison is the thief of joy. LBJ and MJ both played the game better than pretty much everyone ever, and definitely better than anyone else at their position. Why not enjoy two greats rather than argue over them?

Particularly like “Comparison is the thief of joy”.

[michaelm]

I think the more you hear from MJ stans, the more you realize they came to their conclusions in 2011 and have not adjusted their arguments over the past 14 years.

They actually came to that conclusion in 1998, and it was a reasonable conclusion then by most standards.

It is imo up to the other side of the debate to make the case that the previous consensus GOAT has been deposed. LeBron since 2011 has certainly provided at least some evidence even imo as a Jordan partisan. Part of the case made by many however has been to diminish Jordan’s very real rather than hypothetical achievements, not infrequently by people who probably didn’t see him play in his time, and imo no-one can assign bias to only one side of the debate, and nor can LeBron partisans expect such attempted diminishment to be unchallenged.

[Ainosterhaspie]

If James was drafted by Chicago in 1984 does he stick around for Pippen and Grant to develop? Can he succeed playing for Phil Jackson? Would he mesh with Pippen? Works both ways….

Jordan got those guys year 4. By year 7 they had won a title. LeBron stayed in Cleveland 7 years, so yes, LeBron would have stayed.

The thread has devolved down into fundamentally meaningless arguments about hypotheticals, started by a Jordan partisan in this case.

If I want to play though you can’t know whether Chicago could/would have built around young LeBron as they did around Jordan, whether Pippen would have become the player he did next to LeBron, whether LeBron would have acceded to the triangle offense etc. LeBron also lost elsewhere the 8th year with a strong team. On the other hand people say Jordan was close to looking elsewhere.

Some of my personal caveats on LeBron are currently being answered though. Reaves did develop next to him at the Lakers where he has stayed long enough for this to occur, and he is playing a less heliocentric game plan next to a player of Luka’s quality. Current moderately healthy Luka is however probably better than anyone Jordan played with including Pippen.

I'm not trying to make a hypothetical point here, rather responding to one that seems to mix up some basic facts. LeBron stayed in Cleveland seven years. He didn't just leave right out the gate. In the same amount of time Chicago found and developed some elite role players. In the same amount of time Cleveland completely failed to do so and did not appear to have any path forward.

The post I was responding to makes an unwarranted implication that the problem is that James didn't hang around long enough. If he was only more steadfast like Jordan, it would have turned out better in Cleveland.

The difference in the two situations is that Chicago built a championship caliber supporting cast in seven years and Cleveland wasn't even close to doing so.

[michaelm]

Ah the old RiNgZ argument

It's a pretty strong argument.

I hope Russell is number 1 in your list

The real answer to any of these debates is that you can’t compare across eras, and at best players can be declared the best of their era. It is probably also not unreasonable to suspect truly outstanding players would be great in any era.

If Jordan and LeBron comparisons are problematic with them having started their careers 20 odd years apart comparison with a different player who started another 20 years earlier is even more so.

With Bill of whom I made something of a study I look at him from another angle, and that is to ask what more could he have done ?. There are specific quotes from him early in his career to the effect that he decided his career objective was to make his team win, in which endeavour he certainly succeeded. The Celtics won 11 of 13, and in regard to the 2 they didn’t win I am led to believe he was out injured one year and played with a significant ankle injury the other. He was also coach as well for the last 2, and they didn’t win the year before he started and the year after he finished.

Similarly with LeBron, I probably agree the Eastern
Conference was historically weak during his 8 ECF run but he couldn’t do more than win them and the opportunity to do so was open to others.

[MavsDirk41]

Jordan got those guys year 4. By year 7 they had won a title. LeBron stayed in Cleveland 7 years, so yes, LeBron would have stayed.

The thread has devolved down into fundamentally meaningless arguments about hypotheticals, started by a Jordan partisan in this case.

If I want to play though you can’t know whether Chicago could/would have built around young LeBron as they did around Jordan, whether Pippen would have become the player he did next to LeBron, whether LeBron would have acceded to the triangle offense etc. LeBron also lost elsewhere the 8th year with a strong team. On the other hand people say Jordan was close to looking elsewhere.

Some of my personal caveats on LeBron are currently being answered though. Reaves did develop next to him at the Lakers where he has stayed long enough for this to occur, and he is playing a less heliocentric game plan next to a player of Luka’s quality. Current moderately healthy Luka is however probably better than anyone Jordan played with including Pippen.

I'm not trying to make a hypothetical point here, rather responding to one that seems to mix up some basic facts. LeBron stayed in Cleveland seven years. He didn't just leave right out the gate. In the same amount of time Chicago found and developed some elite role players. In the same amount of time Cleveland completely failed to do so and did not appear to have any path forward.

The post I was responding to makes an unwarranted implication that the problem is that James didn't hang around long enough. If he was only more steadfast like Jordan, it would have turned out better in Cleveland.

The difference in the two situations is that Chicago built a championship caliber supporting cast in seven years and Cleveland wasn't even close to doing so.

He left Miami after 4 years and Cleveland the second time after 4 years. Won a championship at both locations. Dont act like he just left Cleveland because they were an incompetent organization, especially since he went back there. I dont blame him for leaving in 2010, but he has bounced around too.

[lessthanjake]

I think the more you hear from MJ stans, the more you realize they came to their conclusions in 2011 and have not adjusted their arguments over the past 14 years.

On the flip side, I really think many of LeBron’s biggest “stans” weren’t actually old enough to have been paying attention to basketball in 2011 and earlier. They didn’t see the era of LeBron’s career where he almost always disappointed individually in the playoffs at some point.

[Special_Puppy]

I think the more you hear from MJ stans, the more you realize they came to their conclusions in 2011 and have not adjusted their arguments over the past 14 years.

On the flip side, I really think many of LeBron’s biggest “stans” weren’t actually old enough to have been paying attention to basketball in 2011 and earlier. They didn’t see the era of LeBron’s career where he almost always disappointed individually in the playoffs at some point.

At a cursory glance, LeBron’s playoff BPM was 9.8 from 2006 to 2011