How many loses until the Hawks should trade Joe?

Harry10 · Post #1 » by **Harry10** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:39 am

it has been really bad watching Joe this year, it just looks like the classic case of "I got paid and i don't care and don't have heart anymore."

Jamal isn't playing that great, but at least he is paid appropriately.

it is getting close to were i wouldn't mind trading Joe for lesser value like Toney Douglas, Favors, Deng, Roy, Eric Gordon, Aaron Brooks, James Harden, etc.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #2 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:42 am

I couldn't see any team other than Dallas or New York(if they don't get Melo) trading for Joe's contract.

Harry10 · Post #3 » by **Harry10** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:45 am

^ at this point, i honestly have no problem in getting Chandler and Toney Douglas. Jamal can start and Douglas can be the 6th, while Marvin and Chandler split time.

azuresou1 · Post #4 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:00 am

Okay, I'm far from Joe's biggest fan, but to say he isn't trying is just flat out inaccurate. Is he not playing well? Sure. But it doesn't look like he's giving up out there, and I don't see how you'd have any indication that he is.

ATL DirtyBird · Post #5 » by **ATL DirtyBird** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:40 am

He has an injured hand, doesnt he? Trading Joe doesnt solve anything. The return for him doesnt improve this team. The likelihood of these struggles continuing are very slim. Plus, who the hell would take on that contract? I cant see Dallas taking contract.

Harry10 · Post #6 » by **Harry10** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:55 am

^ its not about getting better or worst talent wise, it is about getting better finanically so that the Hawks can imporve in the future

honestly, i think swapping out Joe for Jamal (and pay Jamal appropratly), and get a servicable 6th man, it will get the Hawks the same results as if Joe stays (getting knocked out of the second round).

I think the Knicks would do a Joe trade with no problems. I think Dantoni has a dream of getting Amare, Joe, and Nash in NYC in 2011.

i also think that the Bulls are totally in love with the idea of a Rose/Joe backcourt, and wouldn't mind swaping out Deng.

for some reason, i also think that Houston will try to make a big move to try to get a #2 for Yao when he returns..... but for sure, i think that Dantoni would do a Joe trade in a heartbeat.

azuresou1 · Post #7 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:59 am

A) Jamal has proved over the years he has too many deficiencies to be a starting SG.
B) I'd trade with the Knicks if we actually get a good player back like Gallinari. Toney Douglas though? He's garbage.
C) Luol Deng is overpaid just like Joe, and he can't play the 2 in any semblance or form. He's like Marvin, with better midrange and worse outside shooting.
D) Yao will never get traded. Ever.

Harry10 · Post #8 » by **Harry10** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:11 am

azuresou1 wrote:A) Jamal has proved over the years he has too many deficiencies to be a starting SG.
B) I'd trade with the Knicks if we actually get a good player back like Gallinari. Toney Douglas though? He's garbage.
C) Luol Deng is overpaid just like Joe, and he can't play the 2 in any semblance or form. He's like Marvin, with better midrange and worse outside shooting.
D) Yao will never get traded. Ever.

A) "Jamal has proved he has deficiencies to be a starting SG"..... so has Joe, espeically in the playoffs, but Jamal is not getting paid 16M. And Jamal played great for the Knicks, it is not his fault he was on a team full of headcases like Starbury and Curry.

B) Douglas is a great bench player and could probably win a few 6th man of the year in his career. plus, doing a Joe for Curry, Douglas trade could be the first step in trying to get Carmelo.

C) Deng is not overpaid like Joe. saying "Deng is overpaid just like Joe" is a joke, i don't think you know what Joe is getting paid and wahat Deng is getting paid, in addition to what their production is. And why would you have Deng as a guard, put him at the 3 and Jamal at the 2 and move Marvin to the bench.

D) you totally mis-read the Houston comment, or just did not understand it.

azuresou1 · Post #9 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:00 am

A) Joe has deficiencies for a star level player. He is a far more than adequate starting SG. Is he overpaid? Yes. But to claim that Jamal can come in and take his spot is pretty ridiculous.

B) Toney Douglas is garbage. Yes, he post nice stats every now and then. He also is very prone to shooting even when he is ice cold and not working to get an ideal look. You can do far better than a Toney Douglas.

C) Deng is an average player getting paid 2nd option-type money. Joe is an all-star being paid superstar-type money. Both are overpaid. Trading for Deng and then extending Jamal just means that you are paying the same amount of money for them as you would be for Joe Johnson and, say, Mo Evans.

Joe Johnson/Jordan Crawford ($19.1 MM)
Marvin Williams/Mo Evans ($9.5MM)
Total - $28.6 MM

vs.

Jamal Crawford/Jordan Crawford ($8.1MM)
Luol Deng/Marvin Williams ($19.8MM)
Total - $27.9 MM

I would much, much rather have the former group.

D) Yes, I misread it... and if you think that Al and Josh don't get enough touches now, wait until you see Aaron Brooks, who has never seen a shot he doesn't like or an entry pass he won't throw.

CALPURNIA · Post #10 » by **CALPURNIA** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:43 am

The only trade with the knicks that I would do would be sending JJ for Eddie Curry, which is in his final year. The Knicks should include Felton or at least Turiaf to make salaries even.
That would allow us to think what to do this summer, but that would also include throwing this season out of the border in february.
Then we would have a ton of money (end of contracts of Crawford, Curry and several others) to an amount of 16 millions and that of Curry, which is about 10 millions.
But Felton earns 7 millions for 3 years and Turiaf gets 4.600.000 and still would have a player option year in 2011-12.

evildallas · Post #11 » by **evildallas** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:47 am

Ok, I dealt with the silliness of the Knicks trade in the other thread. What I'd like to point out to those entertaining these thoughts is that we are 8-5. Tied for 4th place in the East. Roughly were everyone expected us to be at the start of the year if not a hair better. Most anticipated a drop in regular season wins as the team adapts to a new system even. In order for the team to trade Joe it would require doing worse than expected not as expected. I'd guess it would have to be quite a bit worse than expected.

A better question might be how many loses until Eric Spoelstra loses his job. They're the team that has under achieved against expectations at this point.

donpedro · Post #12 » by **donpedro** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:16 am

don't dream! There's no way you can get out of that mess. I don't know what your gm is thinking when he signed JJ that kind of contract. There's no way the bulls will trade deng for JJ.

D21 · Post #13 » by **D21** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:39 pm

donpedro wrote:don't dream! There's no way you can get out of that mess. I don't know what your gm is thinking when he signed JJ that kind of contract. There's no way the bulls will trade deng for JJ.

Pretty sure Sund is not the problem, just think that most of the bad thing happening in ATL comes directly from the owners.
Our GM, Sund now or thr previous one are only executing, but not deciding too much.

I would say the Crawford trade came from him and his staff, but Joe at 124M can't come from a GM, or he's the worst ever and should lost his job in the following hour.

killbuckner · Post #14 » by **killbuckner** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:48 pm

I think the Knicks would do a Joe trade with no problems. I think Dantoni has a dream of getting Amare, Joe, and Nash in NYC in 2011.

No chance that they would trade for Joe now that they ahve dreams of getting Carmelo.

parson · Post #15 » by **parson** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:49 pm

The 1st year after signing a large contract is often a year of poor performance, as guys try too hard to justify their $$$. In Joe's case, he's playing hurt - trying to be a standup guy - rather than resting his hand.

Shouldn't we wait for him to get well before we blast him?

Skyhawk1 · Post #16 » by **Skyhawk1** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:35 pm

The Hawks biggest mistake was to give him that huge deal. Would the Hawks be that much worse without him? I'm not so sure. But they would have flexibility. We have been watching JJ for years. The best years of his career are gone. He's still one of the best SGs in the league, but not a guy you'd give 120M at his age. Keep in mind this is just the beginning of the season. With that being said, the only team we could trade JJ to is Washington for Arenas imo. They both have terrible contracts and underperform. Still, I would have a hard time not pulling the trigger there. It's not that i like Arenas, his attitude problems are a big distraction, but let me tell you that, I can NOT stand looking at JJ after he misses a shot or gets called for an offensive foul. It's like he couldn't care less. The Hawks need passion, excitment, craziness. So, maybe the Hawks would benefit from Arenas cockyness. The Hawks need a PG and the Wizards might not want Arenas around J. Wall. Why not?

parson · Post #17 » by **parson** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:00 pm

Speed reading, did I just see you post that - for flexibility's sake - we should trade "one of the best SGs in the league" for Arenas, who has a "terrible contract" and "underperforms," in order to get "passion, excitement, craziness?"

Gilbert Arenas is finished. Joe's having a lousy year shooting the ball (injured hand), yet he's still shooting 30 percentage points HIGHER than Arenas.

While we're at it, we could trade Horford for Shaq; he has more "passion," too.

azuresou1 · Post #18 » by **azuresou1** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:07 pm

I would actually trade Joe for Arenas - I think that the filler pieces we could get back would be worth it. I'd expect a deal to be something like Joe, Etan, Powell for Arenas, Seraphin, 1st or Arenas, McGee, 2nd.

Is the downgrade from Joe to Arenas worth the frontcourt upgrade as well as a pick, and a shorter contract? I think so.

Wizardspride · Post #19 » by **Wizardspride** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:48 pm

parson wrote:
Gilbert Arenas is finished. Joe's having a lousy year shooting the ball (injured hand), yet he's still shooting 30 percentage points HIGHER than Arenas.

Actually, he's far from "finished"...but you have the right to that opinion.

ATL DirtyBird · Post #20 » by **ATL DirtyBird** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:18 pm

Skyhawk1 wrote:The Hawks biggest mistake was to give him that huge deal. Would the Hawks be that much worse without him? I'm not so sure. But they would have flexibility. We have been watching JJ for years. The best years of his career are gone. He's still one of the best SGs in the league, but not a guy you'd give 120M at his age. Keep in mind this is just the beginning of the season. With that being said, the only team we could trade JJ to is Washington for Arenas imo. They both have terrible contracts and underperform. Still, I would have a hard time not pulling the trigger there. It's not that i like Arenas, his attitude problems are a big distraction, but let me tell you that, I can NOT stand looking at JJ after he misses a shot or gets called for an offensive foul. It's like he couldn't care less. The Hawks need passion, excitment, craziness. So, maybe the Hawks would benefit from Arenas cockyness. The Hawks need a PG and the Wizards might not want Arenas around J. Wall. Why not?

If we had let JJ walk, the player in his place would be no where near the same caliber. It was a bad situation and either move would of been criticized. It all depends on what oyur content with. SIgning JJ means your handcuffed for a long time, but if you let him go you become a borderline playoff team. Take your pick. 2nd rd playoff losses for the next 3-5 years or fighting for the playoffs during those times.

Gilbert isnt the answer either. I like Gilbert but ill take Joe.