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"Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls"

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"Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#1 » by Ruhiel » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:32 pm

Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls

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Derrick Rose has had to work hard for his points against Pacers rookie Paul George. (Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images)

"If you’re like me, you’re a bit surprised about how much trouble the Pacers have given Chicago so far in their first-round series — especially in the way Indiana hung tough in Game 2 on Monday even though one of its top weapons, point guard Darren Collison, missed the entire second half with a sprained ankle."
One emerging narrative after two narrow Chicago victories suggests that the Pacers may have found something of a blueprint to thwart the Bulls. There might be something to at least pick at here.
In Game 1, Indiana scored efficiently against the Bulls’ league-best defense but couldn’t stop Chicago’s middling offense. In Game 2, Indiana reversed things; the Pacers held Chicago to 98 points per 100 possessions, a rate that would have led the league this season, but they could not solve the Bulls’ defense.
The Pacers are clearly doing some things right. That shouldn’t be a total surprise, given the way their personnel matches up against the Bulls. A better team with similar personnel might be able to put together a couple of complete performances and really threaten the Bulls, right?

First, let’s take a look at what Indiana brings to this matchup:

• A long shooting guard who can check Derrick Rose.

That would be the 6-foot-8 Paul George, who did good work hounding Rose into 11-of-25 shooting and six turnovers Monday. It seems strange to congratulate George when Rose went off for 36 points, but Chicago had to work hard to get Rose those points. George’s length took away much of Rose’s bread-and-butter action, including traditional pick-and-rolls with big screeners and those sets that see the Chicago point guard curl up from the baseline, take a screen or two and get the ball on the move at the top of the key. George went under all of those screens, forced Rose to take jumpers and used his long arms to disrupt passing lanes while they were available.

Rose had to score in other ways — by cutting backdoor after an offensive rebound, curling harder than usual on those baseline plays (so that he got the ball inside the foul line in one case), pushing the tempo and running slow late-game pick-and-rolls with Luol Deng to force a Pacers switch.

This is the Bulls’ punishment for starting Keith Bogans (and strangely playing him nearly the entire third quarter in Game 2). Bogans is not an offensive threat, a textbook “hider” on whom the Pacers can stash their point guards. This is why Kyle Korver can be a key factor for the Bulls; other teams can hide their point guards on Korver, but they run the risk of his getting clean looks over shorter defenders.

• Another defender who can check Luol Deng.

If you’re going to use one long wing defender on Rose, you must have another one for Deng, who is an important cog in Chicago’s offense. (Watch how many of Chicago’s offensive rebounds come when Deng curls around a Joakim Noah screen and gets the ball inside, forcing Noah’s guy to abandon Chicago’s glass-eating center.) The Pacers have Danny Granger and Mike Dunleavy to fill this role. Neither is a great defender, but they are quick and long and can at least mirror Deng’s typical cuts and curls.

• A pick-and-pop threat at power forward.

That’s Tyler Hansbrough, who reminded everyone Monday that a mid-range jumper is a fickle thing (he shot 0-for-5 from 10 feet and out in Game 2 after hitting 8-of-11 from that distance in Game 1). But anyone who has watched Chicago at all knows Carlos Boozer is vulnerable to this kind of player.

• A center who demands Noah’s attention.

This is perhaps the least essential element because Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau might want Noah to stay near the rim regardless of matchups. Noah is an elite rebounder, a solid shot-blocker and a skilled helper in small spaces. But he could probably do a better job than Boozer shutting down that pick-and-pop action … if only he didn’t have Roy Hibbert to defend. Hibbert isn’t a great scorer, but Noah’s height (he’s listed as two inches taller than Boozer) makes him a better matchup for the big fella.

So: Assuming Chicago advances past Indiana, do any of its future opponents have this combination of players?

Orlando: The Magic, a possible second-round opponent for the Bulls, have the must-defend center in Dwight Howard, but they come up short on the other elements. None of their core wing players are equipped to guard Rose, and their pick-and-roll game centers on Howard as the screener. Brandon Bass and Ryan Anderson are capable pick-and-pop threats, but they typically get their looks in other ways.

Atlanta: This is mildly intriguing, but perhaps less so now that the Hawks, another potential second-round opponent for Chicago, have a capable defender (the 6-4 Kirk Hinrich) at point guard. Joe Johnson and perhaps even Marvin Williams could at least imitate George’s strategy on Rose while the other could stick with Deng. I’m skeptical that either could be a George-style solution for heavy minutes, though. The Hawks could also opt for a Dwight Howard strategy defending Rose one on one which would mean he gets his typical 30-40 pts but without the assists and double teams.

The Hawks have one the league’s best pick-and-pop threats in Al Horford. But if Atlanta goes with its small starting lineup (as it did in its 2 losses against Chicago this season), Noah could guard Horford, leaving Boozer with the less threatening Josh Smith. The lone win came from playing Pachulia and Collins nearly 36 minutes combined at center.
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http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/04 ... lve-bulls/
*added some parts including the D12 strategy. The writer of this was writing from a Bulls fan perspective.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#2 » by evildallas » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:18 pm

I think we should play the big lineup against everyone, but I'm sure Larry Drew will match up small.

Full disclosure, I despise Marvin Williams for giving league minimum play for 7.5M a season. We are better off with him as a 15 minute a night sub. I say this not just because of his non-existent offense. He's not a lock down defender either, just merely an okay defender. We're better off with Josh at 3 and I say that acknowledging that Josh's lateral quickness limits his effectiveness on D at the 3. The truth is that Deng would be able to drive on Marvin as well, we might as well match up better.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#3 » by HoopsGuru25 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:06 pm

Collins has no use vs the Bulls.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#4 » by evildallas » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:24 pm

HoopsGuru25 wrote:Collins has no use vs the Bulls.


I only start Collins vs. Dwight, but I go Zaza over Marvin easily.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#5 » by HoopsGuru25 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:27 pm

evildallas wrote:
HoopsGuru25 wrote:Collins has no use vs the Bulls.


I only start Collins vs. Dwight, but I go Zaza over Marvin easily.

OK that I can agree with.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#6 » by parson » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:29 am

George is a superior athlete and Rose is hobbled. If all it took was for us to use a 6'8" -ish swing player to defend Rose, we'd be winning with Joe and Marvelous taking turns covering him.

But, hey!, if it works...
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#7 » by HMFFL » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:44 am

evildallas wrote:
HoopsGuru25 wrote:Collins has no use vs the Bulls.


I only start Collins vs. Dwight, but I go Zaza over Marvin easily.


I'm glad you explained it.

I can handle Zaza starting and getting under the skin of Noah. Collins on the other hand will most likely play limited minutes during the series.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#8 » by evildallas » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:05 pm

^^^ I believe in starting Collins vs. Howard and Brook Lopez but I don't think there is another C in the East that bulk works particularly well against. Specifically against Howard I don't like Zaza getting the first shift because of the unknown of how the officiating will be. Once the game is in flow and Dwight's a little softened up then Zaza can come in and be effective. Against the rest of the centers in the East, Zaza can handle his own and the presence of both him and Al in the lineup helps our rebounding. Josh instead of Marvin for most of the minutes at SF helps rebounding as well if Josh is focused on providing that. Josh's big limitation is staying in front of faster small forwards, but I think it is as much an effort/focus thing as it is a physical limitation. His length can bother a lot of small forwards if he works to stay close to them.

Also just to be clear I don't think the big lineup is our most talented lineup, just our best lineup due to the matchups it creates, the strengths it creates, and the weaknesses it minimizes.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#9 » by gino_giode » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:46 am

This thread is full of fail

Hope you guys didn't buy your 2nd round PO tickets just yet
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#10 » by Cigamodnalro » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:43 am

I like this thread and hope it hits 100 posts by the end of the Magic series next week.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#11 » by Wizard of POOH » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:26 pm

LOL
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#12 » by Ruhiel » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:19 am

Honestly I'm nervous about how the Hawks match up with the Bulls, and now Kirk Hinrich's out.
I did not* make this thread as an insult to fast but shame on the Bulls fans for being so cocky that the Hawks would fail!

Hawks worked hard for this series and won. Congrats to both teams for advancing!
P.S. go Hawks!

edit: did not lol
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#13 » by Tommy Udo 6 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:59 am

Ruhiel wrote:Honestly I'm nervous about how the Hawks match up with the Bulls, and now Kirk Hinrich's out.
I did make this thread as an insult to fast but shame on the Bulls fans for being so cocky that the Hawks would fail!

Hawks worked hard for this series and won. Congrats to both teams for advancing!
P.S. go Hawks!

but a lot of these cocky Bulls fans are recent joiners to Real GM & Bulls bandwagon

Hate them - but you cant choose your team's fans

They give the rest of us a bad name

Note the join dates
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#14 » by MaceCase » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:10 am

I do believe that we had Collins guarding Boozer exclusively when we ran the big lineup against them.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#15 » by Harry10 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:25 am

i agree, it will be interesting to put a bigger perimeter player on Rose like Marvin, but i do not agree on a big line up

a big line up does not make any sense. Horford can already dominte Noah, and Smoove should be left in the paint to guard Boozer and block shots (and were he can't shoot 3s)

putting in Collins will give the advantage to Noah. Horford might have a slight advantage over Boozer, but Smoove will have no advantage on Deng, just doesn't make any sence.

Smoove needs to play PF to block shots.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#16 » by Ruhiel » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:03 pm

Harry10 wrote:i agree, it will be interesting to put a bigger perimeter player on Rose like Marvin, but i do not agree on a big line up

a big line up does not make any sense. Horford can already dominte Noah,(1) and Smoove should be left in the paint to guard Boozer and block shots (and were he can't shoot 3s)*(2)

putting in Collins will give the advantage to Noah.(3) Horford might have a slight advantage over Boozer, but Smoove will have no advantage on Deng, just doesn't make any sence.

Smoove needs to play PF to block shots.


(1) not offensive or defensive boards wise, all he does is dunk on Noah ala Dwight Howard. At the PF he draws double teams and makes Boozer work.
Jason Collins/Zaza gives us 4 rebounders.
(2) Dwight "energy player" Howard > Joakim "energy player" Noah

(3) Derrick Rose will be coming to the paint very often. Josh will not block his shot everytime! He will get in foul trouble. Meanwhile Josh Smith cannot post up Boozer and draw double teams.

They will be using our Orlando strategy on us!

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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#17 » by panthermark » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:05 pm

This is a really good thread.

Yup...the Pacers used a long defender on Rose (along with traps and doubles) while the rest of the offense sputtered (looking at YOU Carlos Boozer). Then on the flip side, the Pacers used Collison, Price, and Ford (all similar skill level players) to constantly attack Rose while "hiding" them on Bogans.

I'm not sure if the Hawks can do that. Maybe Williams on Rose, Johnson on Deng, and Hinrich helping out (while "guarding" Bogans)?

The difference is that Johnson means a lot more to your offense than George does to the Pacers....so you don't want Johnson having to check Deng. Plus...Bogans is more usefull against "Good SG"'s where he does have value. No one cares if he makes an 8ppg SG work hard to get 4ppg.....but he is much more effective when he can make a 20ppg SG work hard to get 16ppg (thus making that SG more tired on defense).

The Pacers basically threw 5 guards/forwards at Rose...and didn't worry about the rest.

On a side note....Boozer might not play (turf toe)....not sure if that is good or bad.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#18 » by Ruhiel » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:45 pm

Harry10 wrote:i agree, it will be interesting to put a bigger perimeter player on Rose like Marvin, but i do not agree on a big line up

a big line up does not make any sense. Horford can already dominte Noah, and Smoove should be left in the paint to guard Boozer and block [Derrick Roses] shots:eyeroll: (and where he can't [post up so he] shoot 3s)

putting in Collins will give the advantage to [Dwight]. Horford might have a slight advantage over [Bass], but Smoove will have no advantage on [Turkoglu], just doesn't make any sence.

Smoove needs to play PF to block shots.

fixed
we need Collins to give another rebounder so Josh and Horford can run and stay in the post.

The center and power forward are interchangeable. That is disengenuos
Josh Smith does not stay in the post as a 6'8 center/power forward 240lb. We all know short 4s shoot jumpers and Josh is no different.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#19 » by Ruhiel » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:50 pm

panthermark wrote:This is a really good thread.

Yup...the Pacers used a long defender on Rose (along with traps and doubles) while the rest of the offense sputtered (looking at YOU Carlos Boozer). Then on the flip side, the Pacers used Collison, Price, and Ford (all similar skill level players) to constantly attack Rose while "hiding" them on Bogans.

I'm not sure if the Hawks can do that. Maybe [Johnson] on Rose, Smith on Deng, and Hinrich helping out (while "guarding" Bogans)?
The difference is that Johnson means a lot more to your offense than George does to the Pacers....so you don't want Johnson having to check Deng.

Like Dwight, Rose can go for his as long as you put everyone else in foul trouble/play defense/keep them off the boards.
On a side note....Boozer might not play (turf toe)....so Horford's size advantage at the power forward spot may be even better. Collins + Zaza has negated the rebounding of the ultimate hustle player Dwight Howard so a less athletic more limited hustle player like Noah should be not a cinch, but a bit easier.

Horford and Smith and Joe driving will put Noah/Gibson/Asik in foul trouble especially if they draw doubles.
If Deng and Josh stalemate each other...Deng plays 40+ minutes so it is key to keep Marvin or Smith on him. If Smith can post him up and make some moves to get him in foul trouble then that will be huge. Brewer and Korver are explosive as well but can be attacked by Smith and Joe respectively.
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Re: "Pacers provide clues for how to solve Bulls" 

Post#20 » by joeysicko » Mon May 2, 2011 3:25 am

Tommy Udo 6 wrote:
Ruhiel wrote:Honestly I'm nervous about how the Hawks match up with the Bulls, and now Kirk Hinrich's out.
I did make this thread as an insult to fast but shame on the Bulls fans for being so cocky that the Hawks would fail!

Hawks worked hard for this series and won. Congrats to both teams for advancing!
P.S. go Hawks!

but a lot of these cocky Bulls fans are recent joiners to Real GM & Bulls bandwagon

Hate them - but you cant choose your team's fans

They give the rest of us a bad name

Note the join dates


Join dates don't make u a true fan. Message board posters are usually the first to panic and jump ship from a team just to return the next night. I have a recent join date and would challenge anyone to prove to me that I'm not a true fan.

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