Why do [some supremely athletic players] suck at defense?

[Wannabe MEP]

Quote from another thread:

Not surprising the Knicker fans are experiencing much of the same thoughts we went through. How can such an athletic dedicated player be such a mediocre defender ?

Amare sucks at defense. Athletically, however, he has all the physical tools to be a great defender...right??? So, what's the deal?

1) Mental commitment?
2) Some kind of physical limitations (that we haven't typically thought about)?
3) Hasn't had/listened to good coaching?

Which is it? Thing is, I've never seen an Amare-type player significantly improve at defense. Yeah, they may get a little smarter, work a little bit harder, practice better position, etc. But whether because of lack of mental focus, inability to hustle, or for some other reason, they never improve all that much. Why?

[SUN]

I think it's because he wasn't disciplined enough here in Phoenix. In his nearly ten year tenure here, he's been apart of a run and gun team. We don't play elite defence. We never did. He has the physical attributes to play good defence, but he just isn't committed or propped to actually play it. And in New York it's no different, he's being coached by Mike D'Antoni who's play books on D are pretty much blank.

[lilfishi22]

Poor fundamentals, commitment and basketball IQ.

For one, he didn't pick up basketball till pretty late in his adolescence so he didn't grow up playing the game. He relied much on his phyiscal superiority dominating through high school and was put in a situation where defense was hardly talked about when he came to Phoenix playing under D'Antoni.

Then there's the commitment part. He's just never been all that committed to defense. Yeah he's had games where he almost put up double digit blocks, but those are pure athleticism and gambling. He's just never put in the time to learn the defensive game. He doesn't box out because he doesn't think about ending a defensive possession.

His basketball IQ, especially on the defensive end, is appalling. He doesn't see plays coming as they develop and that's just from experience, which he has none. When he doesn't see plays develop, it means he's late on rotations every time.

For a player with his physical gifts, there really should be no excuses.

[RunDogGun]

My blame comes in two folds. One, Amare isn't very smart. Two, the fans never cheered every defensive thing Amare did right. Amare is like a dog, he learns that if he gets a reward for doing something well, he will continue to do that, and work hard to do it correctly. The crowd cheers his scoring and cheers his blocks, so Amare tries hard for those, because he gets his treats. But that is just my take.

[MarJJMar]

My blame comes in two folds. One, Amare isn't very smart. Two, the fans never cheered every defensive thing Amare did right. Amare is like a dog, he learns that if he gets a reward for doing something well, he will continue to do that, and work hard to do it correctly. The crowd cheers his scoring and cheers his blocks, so Amare tries hard for those, because he gets his treats. But that is just my take.

You are an idiot seriously.

Your whole post is speculation, absurd and borderline offensive.

Amare looked like he would become an oustanding rebounder and defensive player in his rookie season. Then D'Antoni happened and we never had a defensive mentality as a team.

Color me surprised he never continued to develop defensively as a highschooler it was the Suns job to develop him but they always wanted to prevent him from bulking up fearing that he would lose his quickness and speed advantages over other PFs.

[SUN]

My blame comes in two folds. One, Amare isn't very smart. Two, the fans never cheered every defensive thing Amare did right. Amare is like a dog, he learns that if he gets a reward for doing something well, he will continue to do that, and work hard to do it correctly. The crowd cheers his scoring and cheers his blocks, so Amare tries hard for those, because he gets his treats. But that is just my take.

You are an idiot seriously.

Your whole post is speculation, absurd and borderline offensive.

Amare looked like he would become an oustanding rebounder and defensive player in his rookie season. Then D'Antoni happened and we never had a defensive mentality as a team.

Color me surprised he never continued to develop defensively as a highschooler it was the Suns job to develop him but they always wanted to prevent him from bulking up fearing that he would lose his quickness and speed advantages over other PFs.

How exactly is he an idiot? When the crowd is pumped, the player automatically gets pumped. You're a depressing fellow, mate.

[RunDogGun]

Wow, I am not shocked that Mar doesn't understand my post, and yet calls me a name again. Didn't he get warned about this last time? Kept him from bulking up? Either provide the link for this, or you are the one speculating, making you a hypocrite and a liar. Good job! I do love how you discredit yourself, forcing people to not believe a word you say.

[BurningHeart]

Because he was an offensive-oriented player at heart. Not much else to it.

[Wannabe MEP]

Amare looked like he would become an oustanding rebounder and defensive player in his rookie season. Then D'Antoni happened and we never had a defensive mentality as a team.

Then why were Marion and Lou so much better defensively?

it was the Suns job to develop him but they always wanted to prevent him from bulking up fearing that he would lose his quickness and speed advantages over other PFs.

Yeah, he needs to bulk up like Garnett, the best defensive power forward of the past decade.

For one, he didn't pick up basketball till pretty late in his adolescence so he didn't grow up playing the game.

But Gortat started playing basketball about the same time Amare was already in the NBA...and Gortat is a much better defender.

[RunDogGun]

Gortat is smarter than Amare.

And tougher.

[b-ball forever]

Gortat isn't smarter or tougher then Amare.

On the defensive end, yes. On the offensive end, not at all.
You'll never see Gortat effectively pull off a perfectly excecuted and timed iso move from highpost, take his man off the dribble just when the help defender looses focus, or get open at the rim without the ball despite the opponent's concentrated defensive effort the way Amare did. Just like of course you'll never see Amare cut off a nicely excecuted pick n roll by the opposition or force his man into a corner the way Gortat does.

But Gortat started playing basketball about the same time Amare was already in the NBA...and Gortat is a much better defender.

Then why were Marion and Lou so much better defensively?

These are dumb question sentences/questions.

Lou played with a lotta heart and hustle but he isn't a great defender by any means, and Marion was already an acomplished defender long before the D'Antoni era. DA was a good coach overall and gets way too much crap, but teaching defense wasn't among his qualities and Amare/Barbosa's defensive deficiencies are among the things that DA can be blamed for, given that they both needed coaching early on in that area unlike KT/Raja/Diaw/Marion who were all already very good defenders.

Gortat was introduced to basketball and entered the league as a role playing defensive Big in a Defensive system. Given his offensive deficiencies, the only way he'd manage to get on the court was by scrapping for boards and manning up on his opponent, which he did.
Amare on the other hand was in the opposite situation, Suns needed him to develop into a go-to scorer inside, which he did.


To answer the question, Amare is a bad man to man defender (emphasis on "man to man", cuz he's actually a good weakside and help defender) for several reasons.

First off, he didn't get much defensive coaching/fundamentals he needed after entering the league without much experience. 2nd, his man to man D took a big hit with the microfracture surgery which weakened his lower body strength and ability to box out. 3rd, all the work he does on offense leaves less effort available on defense. And 4th, of course there's also partly himself to blame for not working on his man to man defense. Even if he never had a great defensive coach, he coulda asked Kurt Thomas or Diaw, who are both EXCELLENT man to man defenders in the post to teach him a thing or 2 on that end.

[WTFsunsFTW]

Went to 7 different high schools, drafted into a non-defensive team. When was he supposed to figure out defense?

[KLEON]

Why are we talking about this again ?

[Wannabe MEP]

Why are we talking about this again ?

I specifically asked about Amare because I knew it would get people interested (read: riled up).

But actually what I'm really interested in is the question of whether these types of players can truly improve significantly. Can a bad defender--like Amare--become a good defender? I know they can become slightly less bad...but can they actually become good defenders? These guys that seemingly have the physical tools but never end up getting it done on defense...

Could Amare ever become Garnett-lite on defense?
Could JRich ever become Shane Battier-lite on defense?
Could Carmelo Anthony ever become Josh Smith-lite on defense?

My working hypothesis is: No, they can't. Sure, they can improve somewhat, but as far as I can tell, poor defenders more-or-less stay that way. I can't think of a single counter-example to that, neither in the NBA nor in my personal observation of people I've played with over the years. I'm wondering if anyone else sees that differently.

[lilfishi22]

For one, he didn't pick up basketball till pretty late in his adolescence so he didn't grow up playing the game.

But Gortat started playing basketball about the same time Amare was already in the NBA...and Gortat is a much better defender.

I'm not sure how Gortat trained and developed his game but considering he came into the league to guard the best C in the league, he would've picked up a few things in his time. It's about commitment and hard work. Amare was just never committed on the defensive end.

[garrick]

Some players just don't get it, kind of like how defensive minded players like Rodman or Ben Wallace had zero offensive skills aside from putbacks, sure they had the athleticism but never figured out how to put the ball in the basket on a consistent basis.

[MarJJMar]

Gortat is a good defender? Really?

He is much bigger and thus more physical and harder to move in the paint I think that is about it. He is an abover average rebounder but to say he is a good defender is stretching it. He is not much of a shot-blocking presence at all.

[RunDogGun]

I love how you dodge the bulking up question Mar. Until you provide the proof of your comment, you are still a hypocrite and a liar.

[lilfishi22]

Gortat is an excellent defender. He uses his body well and has great lateral quickness.

[Frank Lee]

Went to 7 different high schools,......?

That alone proves he's smarter


I think it is rather obvious with Amare. His dominance on one end, permitted his lackadaisic-ness on the other. It has been a personal choice with him to improve his offensive game. He has not exactly played for defensive minded coaches who would yank him for a missed assignment.

Foregoing college basketball is likely the greatest contributing factor to his 'non defensive' mentality. Imagine Stat playing for Bobby Knight or K ? He would have been required to play with in a system, and gain defensive discipline... including rebounding.

As it was, he dunked right into the highlight reels, and became enthralled with the notoriety. Gawd it was fun.