Dr J - Basketball-Reference includes ABA stats as well

[JordansBulls]

Two part question.

1. When using Dr J in a comparison with others, do you think we should use his ABA achievements along with his NBA achievements when comparing him to others.

2. Why does basketball-reference combine his ABA/NBA Win Shares and total playoff points of ABA/NBA, but not use his ABA MVP shares as well?

MVP Award Shares

1976-77 NBA 0.028 (5)
1977-78 NBA 0.004 (10)
1979-80 NBA 0.143 (2)
1980-81 NBA 0.658 (1)
1981-82 NBA 0.294 (3)
1982-83 NBA 0.149 (5)
1983-84 NBA 0.129 (6)
1984-85 NBA 0.001 (22)
Career 1.407 (26)


Should Dr J's ABA career also get counted with his NBA career when comparing him to all time greats in the NBA?


And what I mean by that is that instead of having 1 MVP in the NBA, you include his 3 ABA's MVP's and you say well Dr J has 4 MVP's total.

[Laimbeer]

You use them, but you don't give them the same weight. If you want a number, I'd give them about 75% as much value as NBA awards.

[TrueLAfan]

You should absolutely use them. The difference between the NBA and ABA after 1970 was small to non-existent. The difference in statistics between in the ABA and in NBA in 1972-5 is fractional as well. The average ABA team scored about 3.6 more points a game, and grabbed .1 more rebound a game. They had 1.2 fewer assists. It's less than the difference between the Grizzlies and Celtics statistically this year.

[Doctor MJ]

You certainly use them.

As far as why they don't use ABA MVP shares, who knows? One factor though is probably that the voting was done is a totally different process.

[NO-KG-AI]

You use them, but a lot of people buy into the NBA's propaganda that hte ABA was some afterthought. IF Doc's accomplishments are thrown out, then NBA players from the 70's should have their stuff tossed too.

Doc is soooo underrated around here.

[DocHoops]

You have to look at both leagues from 71-72 as flawed, weakened leagues. However that doesn't mean the individual players were worse. Like the players of the 40's and 50's, the circumstances were largely out of their control.

Doc from 74-76 was probably the best player in the World. Kareem was in a mini-slump, no longer surrounded by excellent #2 and #3 guys, his drive and focus wavered and the door was opened for a new superstar. That was Erving.

[Warspite]

I personaly dont get it. There was a merger between the 2 leagues which means they were on par. We count the AFL stats before the merger in the NFL. We count both the National and American league stats in baseball. A .300 hitter is a .300 hitter regardless of league even though they are much differant than the ABA and NBA was.

With Jerry Colangelo bringing in a ABA comittee for the HoF I can see the gears begining to turn and that the ABA stats will be added to the NBAs. Today they only realy have an effect on DrJ, Issel, Moses, Gilmore, Barry and Gervin (Gervins stats actualy go down if you include his ABA days). Does Billy Cunningham realy move up your alltime ranking if you give him his ABA MVP? If he does then maybe you had him to low to begin with.

As far as DrJ I can buy the argument that the NBA was a bigmans league with 8 HoF Cs but if DrJ was in the NBA he would be playing with one of them and he very well could have changed the game just as well. The Bucks drafted him and tehy still had Oscar and KAJ. What kind of damage could he have done with those 2 teammates?

[NO-KG-AI]

Am I in a very small minority for thinking Doctor J was more on par with Bird/Magic in his peak than he was with the bottom half of the top 15?

[DocHoops]

I personaly dont get it. There was a merger between the 2 leagues which means they were on par. We count the AFL stats before the merger in the NFL. We count both the National and American league stats in baseball. A .300 hitter is a .300 hitter regardless of league even though they are much differant than the ABA and NBA was.

The NBA always did it that way. The NBL was almost certainly a better league than the BAA during the '47 and '48 seasons, however after the 1949 merger only the BAA stats were counted in NBA history.

Another problem with the ABA is that a lot of the stats were estimates, especially in the early years. The home team submitted the official stat sheet and a lot of teams did not keep all the stats all the time. When they submitted incomplete stat sheets the league office just estimated based on how the players had done the rest of the season.

For a longtime people just accepted the idea that the NBA was always superior to the ABA despite a lot of evidence that suggested it was pretty close or at least closer than perceived. Now I think people have come to see that the ABA was only significantly inferior from an organizational standpoint. The talent on the floor was comparable from 1971 on and probably as good or better at some point between 1974 and 1976, Doc's ABA peak.

Am I in a very small minority for thinking Doctor J was more on par with Bird/Magic in his peak than he was with the bottom half of the top 15?

It's a minority, but count me among those who think it's closer than popular belief. I think Doc was on the same level as those guys, but they had greater careers. I think what separates them is the personality. Doc, while creative and competitive and certainly the most gifted athlete amongst the three, was not the "win at any cost" kind of guy that Buck and Legend were. Those two were always adding to their game while Erving had the same weakness at 32 he did at 22.

A wrote an email to a friend last month comparing Doctor J to George Mikan. I mentioned how both were a perfect fit for their league and their era. How both had a look that embodied the style of their era. How each was the top box office draw. How the services of both were being fought for by rival leagues and how both players were a major reason for the leagues to mergers. How both played in leagues/eras that get underrated generally and that the greatness of both is minimized because of that. The sad and unfair part is that the things that lead to the criticism are beyond the players control. Erving, while outside of my personal top 10, is a player who should at worst be measured alongside West and Oscar as one of the best three non-centers of the NBA's first 30 years.

Much love for the Doctor.