I see that West is getng some votes already, but Robertson gets no love. So I’m going to try to explain why Oscar should be before Jerry.
1.DefenseDefense is one of the main arguments in “West vs Robertson” debate. Stories about West defense are great, just like Kobe’s reputation or stories about Wilt. But the facts are different.
We have to remember that even today, with three point line, so when perimeter defense is much more important than during 60s and 70s, point guards, or overall small players have very little value on defense. Sure, West might be exception from that rule, like for example Kidd but I think it’s very unlikly because of two reasons. First was already mentioned – no three point line, game focused on inside, so perimeter defense was less important (and – what’s seen when we watching games from the 60s - really bad).
Second, the data we have: games with/without and drtg estimations for Lakers.
Code: Select all
Lakers defense with and without West
Year with w/o difference
1968 116,3 114,1 +2,2
68+69 111,9 111,6 +0,3
1971 112,0 109,6 +2,4
1973 104,9 94,9 +10,0
Sure, these results could be affected by pace, but we don’t know, because teams sometimes plays faster without star and sometimes slower. But these results is what should be expected because of low value of perimeter player on defense and it’s consistent with other data (below). It’s also resonable that West was the worst at the end of his career. West is also known as player who steals ball a lot, but that kind of players, especially small, often gamble and that hurts the defense. So all these result seems plausible in bigger context.
Thx to Elgee we also have ortg/drtg estimations pre 1974 so we could see how Lakers defense changed in season when West was injured. In theory if he was so valuable on D, Lakers defense should be worse in this season when he missed games.
1961 was West’s rookie season, he played 35MPG in 79 games. Lakers defense improved by -0.9 drtg relatively to league average (-0.5 in 1960, -1.4 in 1961).
But the next year West played more minutes, 41 MPG, and Lakers defense was worse: -0.3
The next year (1963) he was injured and played in only 55 games, but Lakers defense wasn't worse, it was opposite: it improved to -1.2
Next season, West played 72 games, 40 MPG and Lakers defense is much worse than year before: +2.6 (so worse than league average).
For the next three season Lakers defense stays at the same level (worse than LA!) and West played 74, 79 and 66 games. Then he played 51 games in 1968 and Lakers defense
again wasn't worse (in fact it stayed almost the same: +1.2 in 1967 and +1.1 in 1968).
In 1969 West played only 61 games, but Lakers defense improved (I guess Wilt effect), not by much but my point stands - West wasn't important to Lakers defense.
In 1970 and 1971 the same story, Lakers defense still worse than LA and then in 1972 was the best defensive team West ever played: -3.0 drtg. But how much he, player rather past his defensive prime, was responsible for that? Wilt was doing the best Russell impresion ever, and we know that Russell anchored great defenses with Cousy in the team (no, I’m not compating Cousy to West, I’m just saying that if team have so great defender in the middle like Russell or ’72 Wilt it really doesn’t matter who plays on the perimeter).
I would also like to point that Robertson was better rebounder than West and that’s important when we are talking about their defense. Because West might be better man to man defender (or to be exact – better in some aspect like fighting through the screens or passing lanes; but Big O was for example better as post defender), but Robertson defensive rebounds might have bigger value (just like with Magic or Kidd).
ConlcusionSo overall we have different data (with/without, team drtg) which tells the same story – West wasn’t too importatnt to Lakers defense, in fact it seems that they often were better defensively when West played less. So data confirms that West’s impact on defense was little or none and some generall rules (small players have low or none value on D; players who steals a lot are often gamblers and hurt team D; perimetr defense in 60s was even less important because of lack of 3pt line) are coherent with that. So overall it seems that West wasn’t as good on D as his reputation suggest.
Sure, he still might be better defender than Robertson (and I think in fact he was, but not by as much as West’s reputation suggest), but the point is – in this compariosn defense isn’t too important, because none of the players had significant value on D.
2. OfenseThat’s what rally matters here, because both of them were GREAT offensive players.
And while West was really great offensive player, Roberston was better, he was almost on the same tier as Magic.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205The best offensive teams of all time, two of them (# 3 and # 25) were anchored by Robertson. There is no team anchored by West.
Here we see players who have played for the best offenses. Players with team offense 4 or more and who were offensive creators on these teams (so no Amare or Worthy) are:
1. Nash
2. Magic
3. Robertson
4. Bird
So Robertson is in very good company, West is also on that list, but below, in second tier of players (Payton, KJ).
I was also looking at West's and Robertson's teams ortg relatively to LA in a seasons when they played at least 70 games.
Big O had 11 such seasons, West only 7 (!).
And on average Robertson's teams had +4.7 ortg and West's +2.5
3. Missed gamesPeople usually don’t talk about that but it’s very important thing in career evaluations like this project.
I already said above that West had only 7 seasons, when he played at least 70G, Robettson 11.
They spent the same amount of years in the NBA and Robertson overall played +100 more games than West.
West even twice (1967 and 1974) missed playoffs because of his injury.
Robertson never played less than 64 games in a season, West 4 times played less than 64 and he never played more than 79.
Something like that is important, because when you miss games you reduce your team chances to win.
4. ValueThx to Elgee’s and ThaRegul8r’s work in RPOY threads we know somethng abou West’s and Robertson’s overall value to their teams.
West:
1968 +6.4
68+69 +5.7
1971 +11.0
1973 +0.8
In Robetson’s case there was data only about his one season, so if anyone have more, plsease share with us.
Robertson 1968
+13.3 net, he improved offense by +10.9 (!) and defense by -2.2Overall with Robertson 1968 Royals had 36 wins and 29 loses, without him 3-14 (!) That’s how bad team he had in Cinny.
(and that without counting that game:
11/25 “The Royals played the last 36 minutes without Oscar Robertson” in a 133-123 L to Detroit (NY Times, Nov. 26, 1987)).
Ach, I don’t have more time and I want to talk about several other things, like for example that Robertson was the only player who won MVP in a era of Russell and Wilt and what it means in this comparison or about playoffs performances (however I have been talking about it in one of the previous threads, and West wasn’t better playoff performer than Robertson), but maybe I’ll do it other day.
