The Wiz Board Religion and Philosophy conversation.

[doclinkin]

From a dialogue between CCJ and Consiglieri

--When Ernie Grunfeld traded Gil to go to the Magic, even before I knew the financials of the deal favoring the Wizards; I thought it was a good karma (coming from a Christian, I will explain I believe you often get what you give) to allow Gil to play for Otis Smith on a team with a chance to win. Made me not remember Ernie's role in gun gate and able to move on. Turns out the Wizards won out financially in a big way financially. In the locker room Rashard has been a class act. He even might have gotten Lebron James a bit distracted. The deal helped more than Gil be free in the end.

Personally I think the Chrisitian angle is totally irrelevant, ditto the Hindu karma angle, the golden rule etc, although Kant's idea of treating people as ends in themselves rather than an ends to a means may be in play but it still doesn't matter.

What matters here is that EG and Leonsis are coming of as the anti-Riensdorf/Crums Krause, and the anti-Dan Gilbert, which is superb marketing for when you good. Back in the day K. Garnett said he'd never EVER pay for Chicago after seeing how they did MJ, and particularly Pippen basically screwing Pippen over contract wise, and shoving all of them out the door so they could build around their genius Coach/Player ideas. Of course they built nothing and went straight into the toilet and only turned the titanic around when they lucked into Derrick rose, however, the key angle I'm talking about is this, players remember be Pollin's shabby treatment of Jordan, they remember that D. Sterling is a scumbag, the remember that the fat chicago jerks are just that, they remember that Dan Gilbert acted in a very foul manner to them when he lost LeBron and again last week, when they look at how our FO dealt with Jamison, Caron Butler, and everyone, moving them to positive environments, we may get a rep as an organization that takes care of its players, even if they want out, rather than a vindictive org full of hate for its players. Even Leonsis, supposedly in the hard line group, has been very quietly in it, rather than loud. All of this helps when we're actualy potentially good and looking for free agents, or to re up players, it's not a winner necessarily, but it is a nice piece of ammo to help our cause in contradistinction to some other org's which have developed truly horrible reps (much as we had throughout the Pollin era). That's where I see the relevance in your p.o.v. personally.

Your post says it disagrees with my point of view when it says pretty much the same thing I tried to say. The part about setting up good faith deals in the future is my way of saying other GMs and players will see the Wizards as a good organization to deal with in the future.

I will add the difference is I do believe the good you continually put out comes back to you in unexpected ways.

That's the only thing I really disagree with, i believe we try to make sense of the world by ascribing emotional characteristics to neutral events . Helps us cope with a confusing world where good and bad seems to happen in strange ways. In the end, i think its totally irrelevant, the only aspect of life where i believe it's relevant is that if you maintain a positive attitude in how you address your life, and react to the events in your life, you will handle opportunities for decision making, and opportunities for exercising judgment in a manner which is more likely to end with a positive result not because of some magic karma, or a payoff for good works, but because of clearheaded, clarity of thinking.

Of course there are other interesting ways of looking at things, i tend to look at things as pure causation, there is far too much horror and tragedy for me to believe in an active God, or in a world where eveeyrhting happens for a reason (kind of a twist on the ideas Voltaire made fun of in Candide), maybe I'ma bit more of a deist, if there is something in there, i like to imagine it's given everyone atool kit for life, and distortions to life that unfold as each persons individual struggle, combining the mistakes parents made in our childhood, with our own mistakes, and life perhaps is a journey in which it is our job to evolve and learn from mistakes, understan our foibles, address them, and become better people, and healthier, and loving people inspite of the Buddhist like idea of suffering that informs all aspects of life to some degree. All of us suffer, but only some of us continue to get up, and move forward, and move forward in such a way that isn't cold and nihilistic, or harmful to others, maybe the challenge of life is to find a way to hold ontoa life with a little magic in it (the innocence and love of a child), a lot of wisdom, and life that leaves a wake behind us that is positive and beautiful, rather than a tsunami built out of the frustration of failed dreams, and anger at the ways in which life has disappointed us, or failed to live up to our expectations of what we deserved and who we are. That positive wake is the goal of all beings maybe, maybe it's behind Buddhism, Taoism, and everything else, or maybe I'm just babbling off topicin a Ronny Turiaf thread.

We may be in the same house metaphorically speaking, but have reached it through taking different routes.

[doclinkin]

Since we violate all rules of decorum to discuss politics, might as well have a place to natter about larger issues of life, human purpose, and existence in general.

Hopefully folks can pin down their personal philosophy in this space, how you came to that place, how it has changed for you, or ask questions without proselytizing and preaching. (Then of course tie it all in to the Wizards win/loss record or current players).

May be interesting. May be useless. I just enjoy the best days of the Politics thread when there is true dialogue if honest disagreement-- more than unalterable political dogma.

Might as well have a dogma thread.

[JWizmentality]

Knowing that my Mom isn't reading this, I've become disillusioned with religion is general. It's divisive and rampant with hypocrites. I'm satisfied with just living a moral life. I no longer believe in any form of a higher power. I wouldn't say I'm an atheist, I still go to church because I enjoy the atmosphere.

[dobrojim]

I attend Quaker meeting...I like the silence and the fact that no one is in charge
(there is no one preacher/minister/rabbi/imam) Everyone is considered to
have equal access. Quakers have no set creed although many profess to be Christian.
Their basic tenet is that there is that of God in everyone, but no one has
ever told me what exactly that means.

that said, and being a scientist, I'm agnostic bordering on atheist.

And I really enjoyed reading Sam Harris, The End of Faith and his 2 follow-ups to
that, Letter to a Christian Nation and...forgetting the title of his most recent.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Sam Harris 'End of faith' is necessary reading for all agnostics, atheists, etc.

I also like this talk given by Dawkins at TED.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A[/youtube]

Dawkins can be obnoxious but I like his vigor. It's a shame that just because of religious belief some pretty common concepts of science, which are not even hard to understand, are under attack. That's my biggest complaint with religion. It's comical listening to creationist nonsense, but then I come to the realization that people in political power in this country will have no problem throwing out our Biology textbooks and replacing them with gibberish.

[nuposse04]

I'm probably best described as a "passive atheist." Generally I believe most arguments boil down to whether you believe existence is circular, or linear. The former in my opinion shouldn't necessitate a deity. I'm also somewhat of a hypocrite because I have a nihilistic opinions on many things, yet I give a damn about the wizards and their perpetual state of futility lol....

[miller31time]

The basic morals that religion teaches and preaches are sound but the older I've gotten, the less I feel required to be part of a particular faith. I think, with many people, religion is used as a safety blanket. Now, I'm not saying this is right or wrong. It's a choice and one that we are all free to make.

Personally, I classify myself as agnostic because I truly believe that anything can be true and real. I am also firmly rooted in the belief that we are not capable of and not meant to understand the complexities of what's really 'out there', and that all we can do is try to live a moral life -- which of course brings certain intrinsic religious connotations to mind -- and leave the inevitable to the inevitable.

[JWizmentality]

The basic morals that religion teaches and preaches are sound but the older I've gotten, the less I feel required to be part of a particular faith. I think, with many people, religion is used as a safety blanket. Now, I'm not saying this is right or wrong. It's a choice and one that we are all free to make.

Personally, I classify myself as agnostic because I truly believe that anything can be true and real. I am also firmly rooted in the belief that we are not capable of and not meant to understand the complexities of what's really 'out there', and that all we can do is try to live a moral life -- which of course brings certain intrinsic religious connotations to mind -- and leave the inevitable to the inevitable.

F*ck me, there may be a god. Me and miller agree on something. This changes everything.

[miller31time]

F*ck me, there may be a god. Me and miller agree on something. This changes everything.

Upon further thought, the existence of you (the devil) does in fact prove the existence of a god.

[JWizmentality]

F*ck me, there may be a god. Me and miller agree on something. This changes everything.

Upon further thought, the existence of you (the devil) does in fact prove the existence of a god.

My epic totality no more proves the existence of god, than republicans prove the existence of higher education.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I have no use for religion, or the conventions and traditions that go along with the word. People form cliques and usually, money and power agendas dominate what goes on in organized religion.

What gives Christianity a bad name are people who give it a bad name. I will start with myself. In me the flesh rises up much. It is easy to talk the talk but walking the walk is tough. Non-believers are easily discouraged when so-called role models fail to live up to expectations. Worse, if the role model is conflicted by their own failure they can become very ashamed or worse, they turn completely away from even trying to do what they know is the right thing--obey and act according to the Word.

People who sit back and expect that a person who says they are Christian is suddenly cured from any personality problem, any psychological problem, any character problem, any spiritual problem to the point they are chaste are mistaken. People of faith are people, humans that will make mistakes of both omission and commission. We are all sinners.

You can be free from a lifestyle of sin, but I'll get to that ...

Back to Christianity suffering: In some churches, big money transactions take place and some preachers/pastors are like pimps in the pulpit. Many folks in positions of power in the church are perpetrators who abuse others and betray trusts. They force people into giving up money and guilt trip the people into manipulation. If you've heard of "The Stepford Wives" there are cults out there people get locked into. Those are the extremes, however. There are many, many fantastic churches with above-board accounting procedures, virtuous elders, deacons, trustees, pastors, etc. I have however, a hard time fitting in to most churches for one reason or another. I've attended many over the years, but I think some of my issues above have gotten in the way.

Which all leads me to my own faith. Really simply, I don't really go for religion or philosophy but I do take what is in the bible as the ONLY guideline of authority. Everything from Genesis to Malachi in the 39 books of the Old Testament and everything from Matthew to Revelation in the New Testament is what I consider my marching orders.

Whenever I stick to biblical promises and principles and apply them to my problems, they lead me to prosper. (Used the 4 P's from reading Dr Tim Story). When I step outside of things that I should be doing, I am no longer led by the Holy Spirit. (See Galations 4 and 5) In my own life, I have seen miraculous things happen time and time again. Tim Tebow isn't making stuff up about what happens when you believe in the impossible. I have had tremendous comebacks from things I won't even share, other than to say I was living by the above and Ephesians 4 and other principles when things changed. But don't get it twisted, horrible tragedies happen to good people, regardless. I am just saying my prayers consistently are answered when I do my part.

My philosophy is that I don't really know but I take it on faith that what the bible says is true about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Ruth, Hannah, Eli, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, Malachi, etc. in the Old Testament. I endeavor to learn and apply lessons learned from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the Gospels; the lineage of Jesus and prophecies fulfilled, the parables he taught, the miracles he performed, the Transfiguration, Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, his encounter with Paul and Paul's subsequent conversion on the road to Damascus, the stoning of Stephen, the Day of Pentecost, the descent of the Holy Spirit, the sermon by Peter, his ministry and Paul along with others like Barnabas, Paul's writings, James ministry, John's Book of Revelation. So many lessons and so much historical accuracy to support these teachings has convinced me it is true.

My goal is just to try to live right, get closer to what my faith says I should be, and in areas where I am weak to let God be strong. I will never get into arguments with people who don't share my beliefs. Nor will I sit up here like some hypocrite and profess to be things that I am not.

I WILL tell anyone that my faith has delivered me from illness and things that could have taken me out. Faith in God will give you life, liberty, and joy when everything else fails.

To live it to the fullest, however, the Christian has to do the right things as outlined in those books above. I am not quite there on all my choices, but I do have a lot more wisdom; like you'll find in reading Proverbs and Psalms, if you don't read any of the bible at all. To me, the biggest struggle is what I read in the Book of James, to be a doer and not just a hearer of the word.

Otherwise, give Christianity a bad name and not fully show love and obedience to God.

[dangermouse]

The New Testament and the teachings of JC (fairytale or no) are hard to fault, and it is a perfectly fine set of books to tune one's moral compass in to if thats what works for you imo.

But the god of the OT just seems like a psychopath, and some of those old Jewish laws are sexist, racist, pro-slavery and even sometimes downright insane (such as being put to death for wearing two different kinds of fabric in an outfit.... what...).

We may have avoided massive bloodshed and suffering throughout history if Jesus had just said sometime "hey guys, dont worry about all that other stuff my dad said. he was drunk again. just chill and listen to my words only."

But then again maybe not, those that stand to gain something would still have twisted words and manipulated the masses to cause suffering and subjugation in some other way...

[leswizards]

We may have avoided massive bloodshed and suffering throughout history if Jesus had just said sometime "hey guys, dont worry about all that other stuff my dad said. he was drunk again. just chill and listen to my words only."

But then again maybe not, those that stand to gain something would still have twisted words and manipulated the masses to cause suffering and subjugation in some other way...

Atheist have caused far more bloodshed and suffering than any religous fanatics have ever caused. That is a inconvenient truth that most atheist like to overlook when embracing the fallacy of guilt by association that they use to condemn religious groups.

For the record, I am agnostic, so I am not trying to guilt atheist by association. I am merely attacking the fallacy that many atheist embrace.

[leswizards]

And, I don't think Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are atheist. Atheism is the belief that god does not exist. Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins should be more accurately described as anti-theist zealots who believe that they must convert all to accept the belief that God does not exist. I reject zealotry in all its forms, and I have no use for Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins, and I wish more athiest/agnostics would come to see those two for the zealots they are.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The New Testament and the teachings of JC (fairytale or no) are hard to fault, and it is a perfectly fine set of books to tune one's moral compass in to if thats what works for you imo.

But the god of the OT just seems like a psychopath, and some of those old Jewish laws are sexist, racist, pro-slavery and even sometimes downright insane (such as being put to death for wearing two different kinds of fabric in an outfit.... what...).

We may have avoided massive bloodshed and suffering throughout history if Jesus had just said sometime "hey guys, dont worry about all that other stuff my dad said. he was drunk again. just chill and listen to my words only."

But then again maybe not, those that stand to gain something would still have twisted words and manipulated the masses to cause suffering and subjugation in some other way...

What about Jacob being blessed even though he tricked his fraternal twin brother Esau out of an inheritance, and he stole Isaac's blessing when their dad was old and blind? Jacob also got to kick it with sisters (reminds of something I won't share) Leah and Rachel (who he got tricked to working an extra seven years for), and when they were no longer bearing children he had them by their maidens Zilpah and Bilhah. The man who would become Israel had four baby mommas! You can look on map and see names that match the story of how the twelve tribes came about.

Honestly, I read things in the bible and consider the context and the historical authenticity. Were women property back then as were slaves? I don't have to know why but I do know that history backs this up.

The bible has lots and lots of other stuff that I find fascinating.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/sex-oral.html

Read the somewhat cryptic Song of Solomon from a lover's point of view. Using delicate, romantic language and metaphors, it describes a beautiful, affectionate, romantic, sensuous, joyful and passionate love between husband and wife. It seems to be speaking of the lovers tasting, eating and drinking of each other's bodies (Song of Songs 2:3; 4:16; 8:2). One cannot be sure what this means exactly, but certainly we see no evidence here or elsewhere that God is concerned with what part of their bodies might be touching, including where they kissed their mate

Say what? Is going downtown and getting freaky in the bible? Interpret it for yourself.

There are so many tales of incest, prostitution, murder, wars -- I just KNOW this book is real.

If you said that Rahab and Gomer and the Samaritan woman all played key roles in Christianity, most of the evangelicals heavily involved in politics would probably be taken aback by that. I suspect many couldn't even tell you who those women were. I say this because I don't think many unforgiving types want to focus on how throughout the bible there are stories of redemption.

So, dm, I respect what you're saying about the OT but I would balance it to say there are also stories that are merely precursors to the NT. In the NT, seems like God had sent His Son to be The Role Model. Most of the fire/manna from heaven stuff ceased but we are forewarned that it is only on hold--if you ascribe to NT teachings.

Again, I'm really into the Wizards, fun stuff, enjoying life and I'm not going to live in fear or shaking but I do try to understand the bible and apply it.

[Ruzious]

FWIW, I had a grandfather who believed in God but was very much anti organized religion. Apparently that feeling - about organized religion - was very divisive in the extended family, because he refused to go to major events. I agree with him - though not nearly as "religiously". Organized religions certainly do some very worthy charitable deeds. On the other hand, there are all the problems caused throughout history. In the end, I have stuck with my religion - but mainly for social and charitable purposes. I don't need to believe in a bible or a New Testament to believe in higher powers and have the belief that there are forces of good and evil.

[DaRealHibachi]

I used to go to church, but in the end, I always felt like I was doing what the pastor/preacher/congregation thought was right, not necessarily what I thought was right... I stopped going to church because I don't always agree with what is preached...

Anyway, I call myself a Christian, since I believe in Jesus Christ and that he died for our sins...

I also hate the fact that Christians get called hypocrites, when every person out there makes the same mistakes as they do, but aren't called the same... So only because they *try* to uphold a higher standard of living, they must get called out for everything they do...??? Aren't they human beings like the atheists are...???

[Zonkerbl]

It is true, whether you believe in God or karma or whatever, that there's this kind of cone of energy, positive or negative, that you project around you and it affects the people around you. When stuff happens to you, you choose how to react to it, positively or negatively. Look at Ronnie Turiaf's interview -- there's a guy that exudes positive energy by actively choosing to view his trades as a good thing - a team trying to make itself better by bringing him in. And choosing to view the world in a positive light affects the people around you, particularly your family. Doing good things is a natural consequence of this, but I don't think it's really about what goes around, comes around. It's about creating an environment around you where people are comfortable in themselves.

And I think that's why people go to church -- it's nice to get a weekly dose of positive thinking. It's also true that a vibrant community can accomplish things that a group of individuals can't. But it's also fair to criticize a church for using its power as a group to oppress other people.

Personally I'm way too introverted to get anything out of going to temple. Being around huge groups of people drains me. But I recognize that other people get a lot out of it.

[hands11]

It is true, whether you believe in God or karma or whatever, that there's this kind of cone of energy, positive or negative, that you project around you and it affects the people around you. When stuff happens to you, you choose how to react to it, positively or negatively. Look at Ronnie Turiaf's interview -- there's a guy that exudes positive energy by actively choosing to view his trade's as a good thing - a team trying to make itself better by bringing him in. And choosing to view the world in a positive light affects the people around you, particularly your family. Doing good things is a natural consequence of this, but I don't think it's really about what goes around, comes around. It's about creating an environment around you where people are comfortable in themselves.

And I think that's why people go to church -- it's nice to get a weekly dose of positive thinking. It's also true that a vibrant community can accomplish things that a group of individuals can't. But it's also fair to criticize a church for using its power as a group to oppress other people.

Personally I'm way too introverted to get anything out of going to temple. Being around huge groups of people drains me. But I recognize that other people get a lot out of it.

My views would piggy back on this.

I believe that like in most instances, it's not this or that, it's both. But not all of both. Pieces of both. Perspective and focus plays a large roll. So does timing.

I believe in God and Jesus, but I also believe there is truth to other books, religions and religious leaders. They all have something to offer and they are all trying to describe the same thing or elements of it. Spirituality, Philosophy, Science, etc. All different perspectives on the same thing. All Roads lead to Rome and all roads lead way from Rome depending on which direction people are driving. People often get stuck in the nuts and bolts of a religion and miss the application and true lessons. I was just speaking with my mother and father about this. Praying for forgiveness or to be forgiven is good to focus the mind and draw unseen forces, but to be forgiven, I feel that takes talking to the person you want forgiveness from. It take listening to their side and need to take the ACTIONS of mending the wrong. If it is not possible to do it with that person, find another way. That takes more then "I'm sorry" where the person polity says, " it's ok" If I took $50 dollars from you, the amend is to admit it and pay you back more then I took. It also evolves allowing you the upper hand where you can be angry with me until you have gotten it out of your system. Some people can never humble themselves. They always want the upper hand.

If you believe God is everything, then that means there is nothing not of God. Many believers of the God is everything don't actually get what that truly means. They want to cherry pick.

I believe everything is part of the greater whole. I do believe we are all interconnected and that there is a fiber, or energy or whatever you want to call it that connects everything. I do believe you are my brother. It is always there if we want to answer the phone. The issues is one of focus and perspective. I believe that helping someone else is helping me. But I am in human form so have that perceptual trapping that make it hard to remember and live at all levels - 7 deadly sins. This is why while we are all connected, we are all also separate. Our phones don't always connect or we don't call.

I know there is a force out there. I have seen and done amazing things at different points in my life. Things I can not explain any other way. But how to explain all of that can get complicated as science reveals the complexity of atomic elements and time slices. Well our minds are powerful things. We are very powerful being. If we would get our acts together, we could have an amazing world. We create good and bad simply by thinking it. I believe that is why the bible references such things as sins. Sometimes there is little between thinking something and it actually happening. Other times, there is a vast difference. Anyone who has had a wet dream growing up knows what the mind can do. What was the difference to your mind regarding that dream vs you physically doing it. The end result was the same. Splat. Not like you were jacking in your sleep. It was all the power of your mind. While at the same time, dreaming of killing someone does not kill that person. But, you mind/soul did experience it.

As for religions. My take on that is that they are a combination of spirituality and cultural history of a people at a given time. And that is where many of them fall short. Most every religion is talking about the same big picture stuff, they just do it in a regionally and temporally significant way. Then when enough people find those metaphors stale and old, they start something new like Mormonism Scientology, or Born Again Christians. That is the history of religions.

So there is much good that comes from religion. Sadly there is much bad as well. People use it to control minds and abuse. People don't get it at a deep enough level so they march along with wrong ideas. People use it as a crutch which is good and bad. A crutch can help while your leg is hurt but as some point you probably want to strengthen your leg via rehab. And since it is a deep core thing to many people, they can easily be lead astray by religious and political people.

I guess that is may take in a nutshell. Big issue though. Thanks for starting the thread.

[DCZards]

I believe in the golden rule..."Do unto others..." and since all of the major religions have that message at their core, I believe in and embrace all of them.