If we Don't get KG (Al,Marv)= Vicious Cycle of Salary Dumps

[Ruhiel]

What becomes the future of the Hawks?

The writings on the wall that Josh Smith will leave if we don't get better pieces around him. This KG for Marv+Horf trade that everyone hates is to allow us to get Dwight or Ryan + center and stack other positions in FA. Ala Denver, we get depth.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7njfzjt
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But imagining we don't get KG and Josh wants $15 mil and so he walks or we get picks and cap space for him...

But with a Horford centered team do we become a better team than keeping Josh+ adding super role players like Anderson or Dwight?

I think if we lose Josh then the only way for us to improve is (MIA/CHI level) is landing a superstar which will be next to impossible?

I see if we become a treadmill team again it isn't hard to imagine dumping Al Horford later on for even more cap space and picks much like Josh.

But that's my thoughts on the subject.

I want your guys thoughts on the subject. Because we're on track to lose Josh Smith but I've yet to see a coherent roster post-Josh Smith.

* If we lose or trade Josh Smith, what is the best ROSTER we can assemble in FA and Draft?
* Do we ever compete with MIA or CHI? And if so how soon, immediately, 1 year, 2 years?

[azuresou1]

Dumping Al Horford to get rid of Marvin is (Please Use More Appropriate Word). Dumping anyone to rebuild before we move Joe off the books is beyond (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

[ATL Boy]

Dumping Al Horford to get rid of Marvin is (Please Use More Appropriate Word). Dumping anyone to rebuild before we move Joe off the books is beyond (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

This, also Dwight isn't interested in coming to Atlanta

[Ruhiel]

Dumping Al Horford to get rid of Marvin is (Please Use More Appropriate Word). Dumping anyone to rebuild before we move Joe off the books is beyond (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

A) Dumping Al Horford to get rid of Marvin IS (Please Use More Appropriate Word). But that's not a salary dump.

That's $21mil in expiring assets and $40 mil committed salary in Summer of 2012.

B) Moving Joe off the books is coming when? 4 years via trade? Or you think ATL is going to amnesty him and pay him to go away?

If Joe coming off the books after Josh is part of your scenario then go for it. But specifically I asked:

* If ATL loses or trade Josh Smith, what is the best ROSTER we can assemble in FA and Draft?
* Do we ever compete with MIA or CHI? And if so how soon, immediately, 1 year, 2 years?

[Ruhiel]

But do you actually have relevant answers to those last two questions azuresou1?
Because the most common thing I've seen is people talking about Brook Lopez for Josh Smith.

You could add a draft pick to develop and replace Marvin and that assuredly will not get you into contender status.

By the time Joe is "off the books" Horford will be on the wrong side of 30, we won't "suck" bad enough to get a superstar pick, unless Lopez gets injured, in which case he's overpaid bad contract, & there will be very likely be a lot of PFs better than him in the Eastern Conference.

Is there an actual answers to the plan for the Hawks-sans Josh? Or is this just another derail azuresou1?
* If ATL loses or trade Josh Smith, what is the best ROSTER we can assemble in FA and Draft?
* Do we ever compete with MIA or CHI? And if so how soon, immediately, 1 year, 2 years?

[theatlfan]

My guess is that the current plan would be to ride out this season and next, then look at the roster. If we're still good-but-not-great as a team, then we could look at using the Amnesty clause on the last 3 years of JJ's contract and possibly even letting Smoove walk. We'd be left with 3 years @ $12M per for a 27 yo Horford, 1 year of Marvin, and Teague as an RFA... That plan sounds much more palatable (and even feasible) than the one laid out here.

[evildallas]

I am a firm believer that you don't give up Horford or Smith to dump Marvin's deal. You only use them to dump Joe or in a trade that brings back cheaper assets. Marvin doesn't make enough and the money you save from either Josh or Al creates a big hole in the lineup.

If you can't deal or won't Joe, which I believe the window to do so is 2 days

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=7m4ej79
or
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=738os66

Then there are 2 broad possibilities:
1) Try Josh in the off-season like to Cleveland for Varejao and their 1st rounder (late lottery) (just an example). More cap room abounds in the summer so we don't have to match as closely in salary and can take back a couple prospects under rookie deals (if we can find it).
or
2) Let Josh, Jeff, and Zaza play out their deals and deal with them as free agents with the possibility of using the amnesty clause on either Marvin's last year or if we have different ownership maybe on Joe to create more space. Losing one or all 3 of them is an obvious possibility.

[Ruhiel]

My guess is that the current plan would be to ride out this season and next, then look at the roster. If we're still good-but-not-great as a team, then we could look at using the Amnesty clause on the last 3 years of JJ's contract and possibly even letting Smoove walk. We'd be left with 3 years @ $12M per for a 27 yo Horford, 1 year of Marvin, and Teague as an RFA... That plan sounds much more palatable (and even feasible) than the one laid out here.

Amnesty Joe

Feasible- if owners are ready to pay Joe an average of $19mil to go away. That would require u
palatable- A stripped down roster that isn't making the playoffs is "palatable" or easier to swallow?

Again what is the roster now? We pursue Iguodala for $15 mil a year? Deng?
Because it's really looking like we haven't looked into making a cohesive roster just free agency and tanking to draft a superstar.

And tanking in Atlanta? Are you kidding? By all accounts making the playoffs isn't enough so how is tanking palatable?

[Ruhiel]

I am a firm believer that you don't give up Horford or Smith to dump Marvin's deal.

KG is expiring and It's clearing cap space and targeting a free agent (Anderson, Dwight is a reach).

You only use them to dump Joe or in a trade that brings back cheaper assets.

Cheaper assets? For a rebuild? That trade is to be contenders now in this shortened season & in the future.

Marvin doesn't make enough and the money you save from either Josh or Al creates a big hole in the lineup

Teague + Johnson + Ryan Anderson*** + Smith + Zaza
J.Pargo* + W. Green* + AlThornton* +Troy Murphy* + Jordan Hill**
Dampier*
* = vet minimum
**=$2.5M
***=$9.5M

Seeing as how Zaza is a truer center than Al (see Dwight) and we get more overall talent at other positions, I don't see the hole in the lineup.

What hole is it? We are still FAR under the luxury cap and we have 3 draft picks.
All those players are more than feasible.

Keeping Al does nothing but ensure Smith leaves and we have to start tanking/overpaying for FA 2nd and 3rd tier stars.

2) Let Josh, Jeff, and Zaza play out their deals and deal with them as free agents with the possibility of using the amnesty clause on either Marvin's last year or if we have different ownership maybe on Joe to create more space. Losing one or all 3 of them is an obvious possibility.

And all three of those guys would ask for more money because we've done nothing to bring in more talent to WIN and entice them to take less or similar money.

What is there incentive to stay and not set us back to the early 2000s?

[MaceCase]

It's a foolish plan because you don't trade your only long term valuable asset to attempt to acquire a player who by most accounts has zero desire to play for you.

That simple.

If Dwight even murmured that he wanted to be here then Horford would have been or will be put up in a trade directly for him rather than a circuitous route being developed where we lose him altogether.

Josh Smith has also expressed a desire to leave and is not committed to the team long term so it is once again foolish because you are proposing a plan that will 90% end up with only Joe and RFA Teague on the roster in 2013. No don't pull up that AP retraction I'll save you the trouble with that folly

SACRAMENTO, Calif. — In a story March 12 about the Hawks-Kings game, The Associated Press reported erroneously that Atlanta Hawks veteran Josh Smith had asked for a trade and criticized the team’s management for a lack of support. Smith has not made any such public demands.

Nothing about that says that he hasn't asked for a trade just that they made a mistake in a specific article that claimed that he did so publicly. Spend any amount of time learning law and you'd know to parcel out relevant details from such a piece especially considering that Smith would face fines from the NBA due to tampering/collusion rules. It doesn't account for Wojo, Sekou, or Cunningham reporting on it over the past week and year either.

So really, we've come back to another Ruhiel agenda piece against Al Horford. Your plan is more likely to put the team in rebuild mode, desperately trying to overpay for 2nd hand free agents next season yet you are trying to place that all on Al in 2013 if the team doesn't follow along with your deal.....

You can't demand people to come up with a specific plan for summers in advance when your plan for just a few months in advance is shaky as **** and has no real backup. Your backup plan for when all goes as reported and Dwight joins Deron in NY, Boston is reloaded with Al and Rondo, the Heat and Bulls still command the top of the standings is to build around the guy who is out the door in 2013 with such specific role players like Anderson.........Really? That's a contender? Can't argue with that logic.

[ATL Boy]

I am a firm believer that you don't give up Horford or Smith to dump Marvin's deal.

KG is expiring and It's clearing cap space and targeting a free agent (Anderson, Dwight is a reach).

Why are you so insistent on getting Anderson this off season at the expense of Horford? Horford>>>>Anderson It's really that simple. Also Horford>>every other top UFA in 2013 not named Dwight or Deron.

[Ruhiel]

macecase You're the one being foolish. Josh Smith wants to leave and Joe got overpaid why? Because the organization doesn't have pieces to win.

"Specific role players like Anderson" Yeah and you look at his role and that's what we paid Marvin $40 million for.

Teague + Johnson + Smith + Ryan Anderson + Zaza
J.Pargo + W. Green + Al Thornton + Troy Murphy +Jordan Hill [+ draft Fab Melo or Ezeli]

Yes then Josh Smith resigns for this team because we made 2 moves to win it all. Garnett run in the playoffs and Anderson in the offseason.

So you're being foolish agenda mongerer by saying Smith's out the door in 2013... 1) Where?

2) Boston is "reloaded" with who? Do they amnesty Pierce or trade him to a contender for a late 1st?

The first thing I asked was this 2 things:

3) * If we lose or trade Josh Smith, what is the best ROSTER we can assemble in FA and Draft?
4) * Do we ever compete with MIA or CHI? And if so how soon, immediately, 1 year, 2 years?

So answer those questions. I asked to make a better roster by keeping Al Horford But you went and added Horford + Rondo as something to be afraid of? Are you kidding me?

We are competing with Pachulia's man to man defense & the mediocre shooting of Radmanovic and Marvin Williams. We'd kill if Marvin turned into Ryan.

But whatever. You just come to troll and derail my posts. Again.

If we aren't at a crossroads winning with Al, just answer those 4 questions and we can all judge for ourselves.
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Horford>>>>Anderson It's really that simple. Also Horford>>every other top UFA in 2013 not named Dwight or Deron.

Tell that to the Larry Drew and Sund who got Radmanovic to play the other forward instead of a center.

Thats not the point though. We dont make a move to compete and Smith is likely gone.
This deadline is crucial because its for cap space. So my question is what the team will look like through FA and draft picks when Smith does leave?

[azuresou1]

ROFL at Josh Smith wanting to stay because we picked up Ryan Anderson and KG, dropping Horford. Wait, no, like any other sane person he'd realize what a TERRIBLE move this would be, and he'd bail ASAP.

No, we don't ever compete with Miami or Chicago, because with Joe Johnson on the books, we CAN'T. Instead, we should trade Smoove with Johnson for expirings and picks/young talent, and then aim to compete 3-5 years down the line once we've accumulated some legitimate talent cheaply.

[parson]

Ruhiel, boobala, baby, you're actually trying to DEFEND your idea of giving Horford away in order to dump Marvelous? No matter how much you may hate his game, he is not the reason we're in difficulty: he's not killing us on the court, he's not killing our salary structure.

But even if he were, to trade away AL HORFORD for .... just an expiring?

Just look at your sig: Ryan Anderson / Jordan Hill / Al Thornton / TroyMurphy. THAT'S your big dream for our team? As you noted, that's $55.3 million with only 9 players. The rules mandate at least 12, each of whom you'll have to pay. So, that's it, Anderson, Hill, Thornton and Murphy. That's your answer to Horford and Marvelous?

[Ruhiel]

ROFL at Josh Smith wanting to stay because we picked up Ryan Anderson and KG, dropping Horford. Wait, no, like any other sane person he'd realize what a TERRIBLE move this would be, and he'd bail ASAP.

Smith, an Atlanta native who has played his entire eight-year career with the Hawks, also would like to play for a franchise he believes is more committed to winning a championship.
--"After the first Hawks practice of training camp, forward Josh Smith made clear what he believes the team needs.
“We need a for real, for real knock-down shooter,” Smith said. “I'm not asking for [Bulls sharpshooter] Kyle Korver, but a guy who can just spread the floor and just knock the shot down.”
Late Friday the Hawks announced they'd signed that type of player in veteran forward Vladimir Radmanovic.
Radmanovic made 40.5 percent of his 3-point attempts (70 of 173) last season for Golden State, which ranked No. 23 in the NBA. Radmanovic, 31, is 6-foot-10 but he's a so-called “stretch” power forward who plays on the perimeter.
Hawks coach Larry Drew said the team needed a real 3-point threat who can take advantage when opponents double team guard Joe Johnson.
“A guy that has the reputation of a 3-point shooter, [the defense] always have to be aware of him,” Drew said. “I watched a lot of film on him and he has a very uncanny ability to get to an open spot very fast. ... We are a team when we move the basketball and get the ball in right people's hands it's going to force the defense to collapse, and the more shooters you have out there with those type of guys the more it helps you.”
Hawks general manager Rick Sund selected Radmanovic with the No. 12 overall draft pick in 2001, when Sund was Seattle's general manager. Radmanovic is expected to join the Hawks on Sunday.
"--

No, we don't ever compete with Miami or Chicago, because with Joe Johnson on the books, we CAN'T. Instead, we should trade Smoove with Johnson for expirings and picks/young talent, and then aim to compete 3-5 years down the line once we've accumulated some legitimate talent cheaply.

Ryan Anderson is 23, Teague is 23. 5 years down the line aka you have no idea what a roster will look like or be competitive. Not acceptable.
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Ryan Anderson / Jordan Hill / Al Thornton / TroyMurphy. THAT'S your big dream for our team? As you noted, that's $55.3 million with only 9 players. The rules mandate at least 12, each of whom you'll have to pay. So, that's it, Anderson, Hill, Thornton and Murphy. That's your answer to Horford and Marvelous?

Wow, I think I edited the Original roster out of the Original post.
Jeff Teague + Joe Johnson + Josh Smith + Ryan Anderson + Zaza Pachulia
Janero Pargo+ Hinrich/Green + Al Thornton + Troy Murphy + Jordan Hill [+ Festus Ezeli/Fab Melo] + Dampier
• 1st round draft pick:
That’s 12 players. Then we have two 2nd rounders.

[azuresou1]

Signing Ryan Anderson at the expense of Al Horford is not a winning move, and at that point in time, Al Horford was still healthy. You honestly think Josh would rather have Ryan Anderson than Al Horford? Of course you do, you want to trade Horford for ****ing KG's decrepit ass.

You want to build a team around Ryan Anderson and Jeff Teague? XFD.

[Ruhiel]

You honestly think Josh would rather have Ryan Anderson than Al Horford

KG's decrepit expiring lockdown defense and gamewinning fadeaways over Blake Griffin ass.

Yeah Smith likely has more respect for "decrepit" KG than rehabbing Al Horford who misses an entire regular season then come back and probably the playoffs to be cautious. Thats a winning move.

Then we have exceeded what Josh and LD asked for with the best shooter forward in the league:

“We need a for real, for real knock-down shooter,” Smith said. “I'm not asking for [Bulls sharpshooter] Kyle Korver, but a guy who can just spread the floor and just knock the shot down.”

Hawks coach Larry Drew said the team needed a real 3-point threat who can take advantage when opponents double team guard Joe Johnson.

We're just going to stick Horford in the playoffs off of rehab and thats going to be a winning move?
The risk KG is minimal. He can get injured because he's expiring & we're no worse for the wear and then we go out and get better free agents (several of which are from Team ATL).

Josh Smith wants to win. You honestly think Josh Smith would NOT rather have Ryan Anderson and Kevin Garnett (defense DNA, clutch low post) in the playoffs than Al Horford?


Jeff Teague + Joe Johnson + Josh Smith + Ryan Anderson + Zaza Pachulia
Janero Pargo + Hinrich + McGrady + Al Thornton + Troy Murphy + Jordan Hill + Fab Melo

or
same old, same old.

You want to patronize with who I "want to build around"? OK.

You want to build around this?:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQSKn82e86c[/youtube]

[Ruhiel]

WELL! As expected trade deadline passed, and Hawks are on same path of mediocrity.

Chris Mannix: Nets already trying to regroup. Two names on the radar this offseason: Kevin Garnett and Ryan Anderson. Twitter