All-Time Top 20 Position Peaks: Point Guard

[D Nice]

Evaluate, discuss, post your own, list is meant to be a discussion starter in trying to pin down some more concrete rankings. I didn't feel like over-complicating things by listing individual seasons but I can add them later if desired.

NOTE: Penny, West, Maravich all evaluated as Shooting Guards for this list

Top 20 PG Peaks

1. Magic Johnson
2. Steve Nash
3. Chris Paul
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Gary Payton
6. Isiah Thomas
7. Allen Iverson
8. Jason Kidd
9. Kevin Johnson
10. Walt Frazier

11. Gilbert Arenas
12. Nate Archibald
13. Derrick Rose
14. Deron Williams
15. John Stockton
16. Tim Hardaway
17. Tony Parker
18. Stephen Curry
19. Russell Westbrook
20. Chauncey Billups

Any noticeable omissions, corrections, etc?

EDIT 1: Removed Mark Price, Inserted Tiny Archibald
EDIT 2: Removed Stephon Marbury, Inserted Lenny Wilkins
EDIT 3: Removed Lenny Wilkins, Inserted Mark Price
EDIT 4: Removed Mark Price, Added Gilbert Arenas

[CaliBullsFan]

Oscar Robertson should be #1
John Stockton should be top 5
Tiny Archiblad should be top 10
Mo Cheeks is better than several of the guys you listed
If you list Oscar I don't see why Bob Cousey, Dave Bing and Lenny Wilkins shouldn't be on the list as well

[D Nice]

No way is Stockton top 5 when he was so often outclassed by contemporaries in this list during his prime. No way does Oscar have a better peak than Magic, I've got him in the late-teens early 20s and Magic with a top 6 peak. I can see arguments over CP3 or Nash but would prefer either.

Tiny I definitely forgot about. And Mo was awesome but in my opinion a tier below even the bottom end players on the list. Perhaps you cold argue he's got more utility in some circumstances than Marbs or Westbrook, but that's about it. Lenny Wilkins is another good choice, but who would you remove? Billups?

[CaliBullsFan]

My top 20 would be something like

1. Oscar
2. Magic
3-7. Stockton Paul Payton Kidd Frazier
8. Nash
9. Isiah
10-11. Rose Tiny
12. Cousy
13. Penny
14. Price
15. Parker
16. KJ
17-18. Wilkins Bing
19-20. Deron Cheeks

[D Nice]

You're not gonna knock Cousy for having a game that doesn't really translate all that well? Good list overall, although KJ all the way down at 16 is a question-mark. As is Nash being a tier below Stockton et al.

[Texas Chuck]

You're not gonna knock Cousy for having a game that doesn't really translate all that well? Good list overall, although KJ all the way down at 16 is a question-mark. As is Nash being a tier below Stockton et al.

I think maybe he missed "peak".

Even a guy like me who thinks Kidd and Stockton both should be ranked higher than Nash believe Nash has a better peak than either of them.

[CaliBullsFan]

You're not gonna knock Cousy for having a game that doesn't really translate all that well? Good list overall, although KJ all the way down at 16 is a question-mark. As is Nash being a tier below Stockton et al.

You asked peak not translatable games. Cousey was an MVP and the best player on championship teams

[D Nice]

You're not gonna knock Cousy for having a game that doesn't really translate all that well? Good list overall, although KJ all the way down at 16 is a question-mark. As is Nash being a tier below Stockton et al.

You asked peak not translatable games. Cousey was an MVP and the best player on championship teams

Perhaps not but from the limited number and style of the guys selected I think it's clear that is at least a piece to the puzzle. Oscar (a 6-5 athletic, strong guy) and 2 very quick/modern players (Wilkins, Archibald) were the only "old-school" players to be selected.

Also Nash below those guys for Peak, KJ down at 16, etc, is a little confusing.

[Rapcity_11]

You're not gonna knock Cousy for having a game that doesn't really translate all that well? Good list overall, although KJ all the way down at 16 is a question-mark. As is Nash being a tier below Stockton et al.

You asked peak not translatable games. Cousey was an MVP and the best player on championship teams

Bill Russell.

[CaliBullsFan]

You're not gonna knock Cousy for having a game that doesn't really translate all that well? Good list overall, although KJ all the way down at 16 is a question-mark. As is Nash being a tier below Stockton et al.

You asked peak not translatable games. Cousey was an MVP and the best player on championship teams

Bill Russell.

Cousy was the best player on the 57 team and it is arguable if he was better than Russell on the 1959 team.

[Narigo]

1. '90 Magic Johnson
2. '09 Chris Paul
3. '64 Oscar Robertson
4. '07 Steve Nash
5. '95 John Stockton
6. '72 Walt Frazier
7. '73 Tiny Archibald
8. '91 Kevin Johnson
9. '00 Gary Payton
10. '85 Isiah Thomas
11. '03 Jason Kidd
12. '11 Derrick Rose,
13. 08' Deron Williams
14. '06 Gilbert Arenas
15. '12 Russell Westbrook,
16. '13 Tony Parker
17. '05 Chauncey Billups
18. '13 Stephen Curry
19. '57 Bob Cousy
20. '92 Mark Price

[therealbig3]

Good list OP.

My list, based on the peaks project and where I rank the guys that didn't make it overall:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Steve Nash
4. Chris Paul
5. Walt Frazier
6. Gary Payton
7. Isiah Thomas
8. Jason Kidd
9. Kevin Johnson
10. Tiny Archibald
11. Stephen Curry
12. Deron Williams
13. Allen Iverson
14. Derrick Rose
15. John Stockton
16. Chauncey Billups (really underrated player...I've only started appreciating him recently)
17. Mark Price
18. Tim Hardaway
19. Tony Parker
20. Russell Westbrook

[Rapcity_11]

Cousy was the best player on the 57 team and it is arguable if he was better than Russell on the 1959 team.

Derisive derailing. Don't do it. rrravenred

[penbeast0]

Evaluate, discuss, post your own, list is meant to be a discussion starter in trying to pin down some more concrete rankings. I didn't feel like over-complicating things by listing individual seasons but I can add them later if desired.

NOTE: Penny, West, Maravich all evaluated as Shooting Guards for this list

Based on what? West played PG every year of his career and was far more of a creator for others/playmaker than Tony Parker. Penny played PG during his best years, it was only after his injuries that he moved off-ball. Even Maravich was a PG though I can't see him in the top 20 with his defense and lack of efficiency.

Or . . . you could take Magic off the list. After all, he was less of a PG than West, he played originally at SG next to Norm Nixon and played a lot more forward than West ever did. It's ridiculous not to have West at PG if the position is defined offensively as you are doing. He's also far more of a defensive PG than Magic who almost never guarded the opposition's smaller, quicker guard.

[D Nice]

Evaluate, discuss, post your own, list is meant to be a discussion starter in trying to pin down some more concrete rankings. I didn't feel like over-complicating things by listing individual seasons but I can add them later if desired.

NOTE: Penny, West, Maravich all evaluated as Shooting Guards for this list

Based on what? West played PG every year of his career and was far more of a creator for others/playmaker than Tony Parker. Penny played PG during his best years, it was only after his injuries that he moved off-ball. Even Maravich was a PG though I can't see him in the top 20 with his defense and lack of efficiency.

Or . . . you could take Magic off the list. After all, he was less of a PG than West, he played originally at SG next to Norm Nixon and played a lot more forward than West ever did. It's ridiculous not to have West at PG if the position is defined offensively as you are doing. He's also far more of a defensive PG than Magic who almost never guarded the opposition's smaller, quicker guard.

Because, being honest, when making a similar list for SGs there's a pretty noticeable lack of names to fill out 20, while there was an excess of PGs. Both Penny and West spent enough time and could/would today easily be a SG. I've made many of the arguments you've just made in favor of both guys being viewed as a PG in the past. And yeah, Maravich wouldn't have made my list but it's close enough where I feel the distinction helps thin the herd a little.

You're seriously reaching with Magic and I feel like Iverson is pretty much exclusively a PG (defensively), so that's where he has to be evaluated.

[penbeast0]

Again, you have to define your terms. If you are talking about offensive PGs, then Iverson generally played 2. If you are talking about defensive PGs, then Magic generally guarded the 2-3, even the 4. Both should not be on the same list whatever it is.

I would rate players offensively as

Points (the guy who has the primary job of bringing the ball upcourt and initiating the offense)
Wings (shooters and slashers who tend to get the ball at the 3 and make their moves)
Post players (Guys who primarily set up foul line or further in before they get the ball)

However, I think if you use the traditional 1-5 positions, they should be rated DEFENSIVELY. Whoever guards the smallest/quickest guy on the floor is considered the 1, even if he's a Jason Terry or Leandro Barbosa shooter type. Whoever guards the 2nd smallest/quickest guy should be considered the 2, even if he's a pure playmaker like a Jason Kidd . . . etc. on up to the 5. Your position is defined by who you guard and may change if you are playing with different teams (or a smallball crazy coach like Don Nelson) . . . and many players would be 1/2's (Kidd) or 4/5's (Duncan) if they split defensive time 50/50 or even 60/40. Then Magic would be a 2/3 as he was almost never the smallest guy out there (Nixon, Scott, Cooper, etc.).

[penbeast0]

Again, you have to define your terms. If you are talking about offensive PGs, then Iverson generally played 2. If you are talking about defensive PGs, then Magic generally guarded the 2-3, even the 4. Both should not be on the same list whatever it is.

I would rate players offensively as

Points (the guy who has the primary job of bringing the ball upcourt and initiating the offense)
Wings (shooters and slashers who tend to get the ball at the 3 and make their moves)
Post players (Guys who primarily set up foul line or further in before they get the ball)

However, I think if you use the traditional 1-5 positions, they should be rated DEFENSIVELY. Whoever guards the smallest/quickest guy on the floor is considered the 1, even if he's a Jason Terry or Leandro Barbosa shooter type. Whoever guards the 2nd smallest/quickest guy should be considered the 2, even if he's a pure playmaker like a Jason Kidd . . . etc. on up to the 5. Your position is defined by who you guard and may change if you are playing with different teams (or a smallball crazy coach like Don Nelson) . . . and many players would be 1/2's (Kidd) or 4/5's (Duncan) if they split defensive time 50/50 or even 60/40. Then Magic would be a 2/3 as he was almost never the smallest guy out there (Nixon, Scott, Cooper, etc.).

[lorak]

1. LeBron
2. Oscar
3. Magic
4. Penny
5. CP3
6. Nash
7. Price
8. Stockton
9. Rose
10. Isiah
11. KJ
12. Tony
13. Arenas
14. Baron
15. Frazier
16. Kidd
17. Payton
18. Westbrook
19. Deron
20. Billups

Really difficult after top 8.

[The Infamous1]

1. LeBron
2. Oscar
3. Magic
4. Penny
5. CP3
6. Nash
7. Price
8. Stockton
9. Rose
10. Isiah
11. KJ
12. Tony
13. Arenas
14. Baron
15. Frazier
16. Kidd
17. Payton
18. Westbrook
19. Deron
20. Billups

Really difficult after top 8.

Penny over Nash and Chris Paul?

[lorak]

^
Yes, but I'm very biased here as Penny is one of my favorite players and the most favorite to watch ever.