Draft Report: Adreian Payne Of Michigan State

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Draft Report: Adreian Payne Of Michigan State 

Post#1 » by RealGM Articles » Sat May 24, 2014 3:58 am

Adreian Payne doesn’t have the upside of some of the players at the top of the draft, but he is as ready as any to make an immediate impact as a rookie. He’s part of a vanishing breed - a senior who improved in each of his four seasons in college and doesn’t need to be developed much in the NBA. Payne is one of the most complete big men in the country and his skill-set can improve every team in the league. It shouldn’t take long for his name to come off the board. 


Payne is coming off a dominant season at Michigan State, where he averaged 16 points, 7 rebounds and 1 block a game on 50% shooting. He was their best player on both sides of the ball - a defensive anchor in their frontcourt who could draw a double-team in the post and shoot the ball out to the three-point line. At 6’10 240 with a 7’4 wingspan, Payne is a stretch 4 with elite athleticism and prototype size for the position. He has a lot of Serge Ibaka in his game.


He’s not the shot-blocker Ibaka is, but his length makes him an extremely effective interior defender and he’s just as good a shooter from the perimeter. That combination of skills is what makes Ibaka such an incredibly valuable player, as the Oklahoma City Thunder are finding out in the Western Conference Finals. Ibaka makes everyone better on both sides of the ball and there’s no other big man on their roster who can come close to replicating his two-way impact.


With the vast majority of big men, you have to balance one side of the floor off the other. For the most part, defensive-minded centers are raw offensive players who can barely catch and finish around the rim, much less spread the floor and open up driving lanes to the rim. Conversely, most stretch 4’s are defensive liabilities, players whose lack of athleticism prevents them from matching up with their position who force their team to send help on defense.


A two-way big man is a force multiplier, a guy who improves your offense and your defense, which is the quickest way to improve your team. When Ibaka is in the game, the Thunder have a foundational piece for an elite defense and an elite offense. You need multiple players to replace what he can do, which is a problem since you still only have five spots in a line-up without him. A jump-shooting shot-blocker is one of the most important skill-sets in the game.


Payne’s ability to play defense and shoot 3’s at 6’10 will improve any team he is on. Like Gorgui Dieng and Mason Plumlee in 2013, he’s slipping in the pre-draft process because of concerns about his age, but the rules for evaluating players have to be a little different for guys with their size. Imagine how effective Dieng and Plumlee would have been as rookies if they could stroke 3’s - Payne shot 42% from beyond the arc on 3 attempts a game last season.


He doesn’t have the upside to be taken in the Top 5 in a draft like 2014, but you don’t have to go too far down in the lottery to start finding teams that Payne would immediately improve next season. You can find a quality perimeter player in free agency, but the only way to acquire an athletic 6’10+ shooter like Payne is to draft him. He’s the ideal complementary piece for any young team trying to make a push to the playoffs and he won’t cost much money either. 


Start with the Sacramento Kings at No. 8. With Isaiah Thomas, Rudy Gay and DeMarcus Cousins in the fold, they don’t need another player who needs the ball in his hands. As is, there aren’t enough shots to go around to fully develop Ben McLemore, their lottery pick in 2013. The Kings need a frontcourt player who can improve their defense without taking the ball away from their stars. If they trade the pick, they should be looking for a guy with Payne’s skill-set. 


Jason Thompson is a solid NBA player, but he doesn’t have Payne’s length or athleticism and he can’t shoot 3’s. With so many elite PF’s in the Western Conference, Thompson is stretched as a starter, particularly next to a C with as many defensive issues as Cousins. Payne and Cousins, in contrast, would be a perfect mix on both sides of the ball. They would be one of the biggest and most athletic frontcourts in the NBA while still being able to space the floor. 


At No. 9, Payne would make a lot of sense next to Al Jefferson for the same reasons he makes sense next to Cousins. For the Orlando Magic and Philadelphia 76ers, two teams who should be able to grab a franchise player in the Top 4, Payne would be a great complementary piece in their frontcourt. He would space the floor for Nerlens Noel in Philadelphia and he would help Nik Vucevic with interior defense in Orlando. He’s a good fit on almost any team. 


A player with Payne’s length, athleticism and shooting ability is inherently valuable. In the modern NBA, teams have to decide whether they will play 4-out or with two post players. Payne gives his team the best both of both worlds - the floor spacing of a 4-out offense and the interior defense of a two-post team. Upside isn’t everything, especially for teams looking to win now. If he doesn’t get any better, Payne will still have a 10-year career as a starter on a good team.

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Re: Draft Report: Adreian Payne Of Michigan State 

Post#2 » by johnnystamos » Sat May 24, 2014 6:13 am

Pleased to see someone finally calling for Payne to go top ten. I have been saying this for months. But why spend multiple paragraphs explaining that very good big men that can do a lot of things well are beneficial to a team? Don't people already know this?

"He doesn’t have the upside to be taken in the Top 5 in a draft like 2014." This is a completely generic, parroted statement that means nothing if you don't say what you think his upside is and what you think the other players upsides are. I think his upside is Al Horford with better 3 point shooting and better rim protection, which makes him an All-Star several times over. If he's such a perfect fit next to Noel and Jefferson, he should be just as good of a fit next to Favors. And if the Lakers or Celtics drafted him they'd have a great big man to build around and wouldn't be pigeonholed when it comes time to choose their second starting big man. They wouldn't say, "We need a rim protector because Payne stinks at that" or "We need a shooter because Payne stinks at that." They could just add the best player possible. He would be a perfect complement to any of the 2015 free agents those teams might try to sign. Now if you think Julius Randle's upside is Karl Malone or something or you don't feel Payne will be very good, then say this. Otherwise saying he shouldn't go top 5 if just pointless and worthless.

"Payne is a stretch 4 with elite athleticism." This isn't actually true. He may be a spectacular dunker, but his lateral movement is overly robotic and somewhat slow. His runs up and down court are also unpleasant to look at as he doesn't always get from point to point very fluidly. This is increasingly apparent as he gets deeper into games and gets fatigued. He is still a great player, but no, not an elite athlete.
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Re: Draft Report: Adreian Payne Of Michigan State 

Post#3 » by CelticsFor18th » Tue May 27, 2014 2:08 pm

I want Boston to get him at 17.
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Re: Draft Report: Adreian Payne Of Michigan State 

Post#4 » by armchairgm » Fri May 30, 2014 12:49 pm

johnnystamos wrote:why spend multiple paragraphs explaining that very good big men that can do a lot of things well are beneficial to a team? Don't people already know this?


Short answer? You sometimes have to assume a lack of knowledge on the part of your readers. Why? It's because not all people are well informed.

johnnystamos wrote:"He doesn’t have the upside to be taken in the Top 5 in a draft like 2014." This is a completely generic, parroted statement that means nothing if you don't say what you think his upside is and what you think the other players upsides are.


http://www.freep.com/article/20120322/C ... to-breathe

1.
Here is an article from Drew Sharp of The Detroit Free Press from 2 years ago talking about Payne's lungs being undersized (we have known for a long time about this issue). Ask Derrick Williams how playing with a deviated septum affected his breathing which affected his conditioning which affected his play which kept him off the court. Ask Anthony Bennett how his asthma affected his conditioning which affected his play which turned him into the biggest (literally and figuratively) punchline since Kwame Brown. The guys I mentioned were very high picks who have under-performed so far in their NBA careers for a multitude of reasons, but health issues that negatively impacted conditioning definitely played a part. Payne seems to be more skilled than both, but to assume that he can survive 36 minutes a night as an NBA starter would not be a safe assumption as the best he could do in college was 26 mpg as a junior and 28 minutes a night his senior year.

2.
Payne's development curve was later than that of a typical 5 star high school recruit so he stayed in school instead of declaring early. A normal 23 year old basketball player is coming off his 3rd year in the pros. Year 3 is usually when a it all "clicks" for a young guy and by the end of that season he is done making major developmental leaps. Payne did his developing in college for free, but now he offers little to no prospect of growth once he enters the league. He might add some muscle, but the maturation from 23 to 26 is nothing compared to the growth that takes place from 20 to 23.

3. The top 6 prospects in the order of the consensus big board from NBA.com:
Wiggins, Embiid, Parker, Exum, Randle, and Vonleh.
I would put Vonleh ahead of Randle which gives us a top 5 of Wiggins, Embiid, Parker, Exum, and Vonleh. All are freshman and all have a lot of growing to do (both physically and with their skill sets). As the lowest ranked of the top 5, Vonleh would be Payne's competition if we are trying to sneak Adreian into one of the top 5 selections. Take a look at Payne's junior year stats and compare them to what Vonleh did as a freshman (stats from espn).
Payne junior: 25.6 mpg/ 3.8-7.0 .546 FG%/ .4-1.2 .381 3P%/ 2.5-2.9 .848 FT%/ 7.6 rpg/ .8 ast/ 1.3 blk/ .8 stl
Vonleh fresh: 26.5 mpg/ 3.8-7.2 .523 FG%/ .5-1.1 .485 3P%/ 3.2-4.5 .716 FT%/ 9.0 rpg/ .6 ast/ 1.4 blk/ .9 stl

As a senior Payne shot better from the floor, but he shot more 3's and his FG% drops. He scored more points per game but he also took more shots each night. Give Vonleh a year to develop and he could very easily be just as good as Payne is now. Give Vonleh 2 years to develop and he very well could have tied or passed Payne for production in the NBA. By year 3 in the league, Vonleh should be a 32-36 minute a night stretch 4 who plays tough D. By year 3, Payne should be a 24-28 minute a night stretch 4 who plays tough D. That 8 minute difference is 8 more minutes of playing your backup power forward. That is 8 extra minutes from the guy who isn't as good. That is early substitutions/ strange rotations which could negatively affect lineup chemistry. For what could be the exact same per minute production (if it doesn't favor Vonleh by that point) you get and extra 29-33% of floor time from Vonleh. That means Payne isn't top 5.

If Sacramento moves a few (perhaps several?) of the incumbent power forwards Payne makes a lot of sense at 8. I agree he makes a ton of sense between Al Jefferson and MKG in Charlotte at 9. Philly at 10 would put him next to/ behind Noel and it would be great. Orlando at 12 would put him next to/ behind Vucevic and it would also be great. Minnesota at 13 makes a ton of sense (for a team that needs an immediate impact from its rookie). Phoenix at 14 would be really fun to watch. Atlanta at 15 would be a great fit and fills a front court depth need. If he slips past Chicago at 16 I would need to go back and reevaluate everything I know and love about Thibodeau.

I think Payne will make a larger than normal impact as a rookie (if he isn't 1st or 2nd all rookie team I would be shocked) but the age induced lack of upside combined with the potential for conditioning issues/ lack of minutes due to his health concerns mean he won't be a top 5 pick. I think when we start with the 6th pick and Payne's competition for best available reads Smart, Randle, and Gordon then Adreian will be seriously considered by each front office selecting from that point on. When you compare talent left on the board, team fit, and desire for an immediate impact from your rookie Payne's draft range appears to be 8-16.

Sorry for the excessive amount of text, but I didn't want to parrot you an answer.

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