To start a team: Hakeem+Kobe or KG+MJ?

[ceiling raiser]

Somebody brought this up today, so I thought I'd ask the PC board.

Who do you take, and why (today's league)?

[Dipper 13]

Dream is perhaps the best defensive player of the modern era and among the best all time. Below we can see a sample of 58 games (primarily playoffs) which shows his defensive impact.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1330591

Spoiler:

Plus/Minus

Plus/Minus Total: +380

Plus/Minus Per 100: +8.4



On/Off

On Court ORtg: 111.3

Off Court ORtg: 108.1

Net ORtg: +3.2



On Court DRtg: 103.0

Off Court DRtg: 134.5

Net DRtg: -31.5



On/Off Net Rating: +34.7

But I will take the 2nd duo, seeing as the Jordan/Kobe gap is bigger than Hakeem/Garnett. Below are some impact statistics from a select sample of (126) games from Jordan's peak years.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1286698

Spoiler:

Plus/Minus

Plus/Minus Total: +1767

Plus/Minus Per 100: +18.3



On/Off

On Court ORtg: 123.9

Off Court ORtg: 88.3

Net ORtg: +35.6



On Court DRtg: 105.5

Off Court DRtg: 114.8

Net DRtg: -9.3



On/Off Net Rating: +44.8

[ceiling raiser]

Dream is perhaps the best defensive player of the modern era and among the best all time. Below we can see a sample of 58 games (primarily playoffs) which shows his defensive impact.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1330591

Spoiler:

Plus/Minus

Plus/Minus Total: +380

Plus/Minus Per 100: +8.4



On/Off

On Court ORtg: 111.3

Off Court ORtg: 108.1

Net ORtg: +3.2



On Court DRtg: 103.0

Off Court DRtg: 134.5

Net DRtg: -31.5



On/Off Net Rating: +34.7

But I will take the 2nd duo, seeing as the Jordan/Kobe gap is bigger than Hakeem/Garnett. Below are some impact statistics from a select sample of (126) games from Jordan's peak years.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1286698

Spoiler:

Plus/Minus

Plus/Minus Total: +1767

Plus/Minus Per 100: +18.3



On/Off

On Court ORtg: 123.9

Off Court ORtg: 88.3

Net ORtg: +35.6



On Court DRtg: 105.5

Off Court DRtg: 114.8

Net DRtg: -9.3



On/Off Net Rating: +44.8

Tremendous research, thanks as always.

OT - Who do you think you'll work on next? You've done a great job with these.

[Dipper 13]

Perhaps Bird, Magic, Ewing, Robinson, etc. I would be interested in anyone from the first 50 years of the NBA, if there are enough games available.

[ceiling raiser]

Perhaps Bird, Magic, Ewing, Robinson, etc. I would be interested in anyone from the first 50 years of the NBA, if there are enough games available.

Any of those guys would be great (and I'm sure the data is extremely interesting for all of them), but my personal vote would be 84-88 Bird.

[Quotatious]

I have MJ at 1, Hakeem at 4, KG at 13 and Kobe at 14, so both Jordan and Garnett are ahead of Olajuwon and Bryant - I'd take MJ/KG, but not only because of my all-time list - I think they're a bit better fit - Olajuwon was somewhat of a ball-stopper even at his peak, and so was Kobe - it's not really a bad thing on its own, because both these guys are so great as isolation players that you really want them to go 1 on 1 as much as possible, both are almost unstoppable 1 on 1, without providing a double team, but the way their talents combine still isn't ideal (although I think they'd still utilize about 98% of their individual potential together), but Jordan & Garnett seems like a match made in Heaven, on so many levels - I think they're such a great fit that they'd actually elevate each other to give more than 100% of their abilities, they'd even slightly improve each other. Both skill/style and personality-wise, they seem like a perfect fit - Garnett could play like a bigger, much better Pippen, and be an even better #2 scorer. I think his efficiency would go up - I'd say 22 PPG on 58% TS in the RS, and something very close to that in the postseason, seems realistic. Tremendous pick & roll and pick & pop potential, and the way they would DEFEND pick & rolls would be second to none. Imagine KG in the mid/high post and Jordan moving off ball, either for a catch & shoot jumper, or as a cutter - both were so smart that Jordan would even be able to go backdoor, and KG would give him a no-look feed for an easy score or a shooting foul. Would probably combine for the #1 offense AND defense in the league for about 5 straight seasons or so, with a reasonably talented supporting cast. I don't know if you can dream about a better duo.

I think that another reason why KG would be an amazing fit with MJ is that he combines the best qualities of Pippen and Grant, and on both ends of the court (he's certainly far less capable as a point forward because he can't dribble and be a pick & roll ball-handler like Pippen could, he just isn't quick enough, being a bigman instead of a perimeter guy, but everything else is there).

Would be absolutely thrilled to have either of these duos, though, that's for sure. You're going to win several titles with both duos in their primes, so it's certainly just a matter of which pair you can squeeze more from - like I've said, to me it's MJ and KG.

[drza]

Dream is perhaps the best defensive player of the modern era and among the best all time. Below we can see a sample of 58 games (primarily playoffs) which shows his defensive impact.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1330591

Spoiler:

Plus/Minus

Plus/Minus Total: +380

Plus/Minus Per 100: +8.4



On/Off

On Court ORtg: 111.3

Off Court ORtg: 108.1

Net ORtg: +3.2



On Court DRtg: 103.0

Off Court DRtg: 134.5

Net DRtg: -31.5



On/Off Net Rating: +34.7

But I will take the 2nd duo, seeing as the Jordan/Kobe gap is bigger than Hakeem/Garnett. Below are some impact statistics from a select sample of (126) games from Jordan's peak years.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1286698

Spoiler:

Plus/Minus

Plus/Minus Total: +1767

Plus/Minus Per 100: +18.3



On/Off

On Court ORtg: 123.9

Off Court ORtg: 88.3

Net ORtg: +35.6



On Court DRtg: 105.5

Off Court DRtg: 114.8

Net DRtg: -9.3



On/Off Net Rating: +44.8

Have you given any thought to making a central location for these that can be cited/linked to? I'm certain that this is a service that many on here would like to peruse/reference, if you did.

[Dipper 13]

Have you given any thought to making a central location for these that can be cited/linked to? I'm certain that this is a service that many on here would like to peruse/reference, if you did.

I don't have any kind of blog or website and I'm not sure if the mods here will sticky a thread, but all the posts are here on the forum. This is just a temporary thing, until the NBA releases their pre-1997 data to the public. I didn't compile possession data for the 3 old school centers, due to a limited sample of games available.


Barkley 1

Barkley 2

Jordan

Hakeem

Shaq

Russell

Kareem

Wilt

[Jim Naismith]

Somebody brought this up today, so I thought I'd ask the PC board.

Who do you take, and why (today's league)?

I'm assuming this is for a one-year run and that both teams are in the league. I assume there are no other all stars or all-defensive players on either team.

This then becomes a question of who would win in 7-game series.

Let Kobe be the 2003 Kobe, when he shot threes well and was an elite defender.

Jordan would be able to diminish Kobe's offense, but also vice versa. Kobe's 3-point shooting would help space the floor. Moreover, Kobe's would have more of a 1b role to Hakeem's 1a, so the effect of Jordan's defense would be mitigated.

However, the MJ/KG team has no one to really lessen Hakeem's offensive impact. This is a weak era for centers, and a current-era average center is being tasked with stopping peak Hakeem, a task that challenged Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq.

KG would get his, but his offense isn't nearly as potent as Hakeem's, especially in the playoffs.

I'd take the Hakeem/Kobe duo.

[hisalness56]

I look at it this way. Peak Kobe (pick whatever year you consider that to be) is the only 2 guard and one of the only perimeter players that could go toe to toe with peak Jordan on an individual level, and would relish that moment more than any player in history. Whereas peak KG I think would get utterly destroyed by peak Hakeem. And add in the defensive impact of Hakeem being able to play much better help D on MJ than KG could on Kobe if and when they got past each other into the lane than I think this has to Dream/Kobe and pretty easily

[TheRobin]

I look at it this way. Peak Kobe (pick whatever year you consider that to be) is the only 2 guard and one of the only perimeter players that could go toe to toe with peak Jordan on an individual level, and would relish that moment more than any player in history. Whereas peak KG I think would get utterly destroyed by peak Hakeem. And add in the defensive impact of Hakeem being able to play much better help D on MJ than KG could on Kobe if and when they got past each other into the lane than I think this has to Dream/Kobe and pretty easily

Talk about flawed logic. There not just gonna play each other there are 28 other teams to play.

[hisalness56]

I look at it this way. Peak Kobe (pick whatever year you consider that to be) is the only 2 guard and one of the only perimeter players that could go toe to toe with peak Jordan on an individual level, and would relish that moment more than any player in history. Whereas peak KG I think would get utterly destroyed by peak Hakeem. And add in the defensive impact of Hakeem being able to play much better help D on MJ than KG could on Kobe if and when they got past each other into the lane than I think this has to Dream/Kobe and pretty easily

Talk about flawed logic. There not just gonna play each other there are 28 other teams to play.

I was looking at it from the standpoint of them playing each other in a 7 game series like the Finals. If you're looking at it from playing a full season I could I guess go MJ and KG.. But I'd have to think about that one

[Jim Naismith]

Talk about flawed logic. There not just gonna play each other there are 28 other teams to play.

Which of these "28 other teams" (from the current NBA) can beat these two hypothetical teams in the playoffs?

[Jim Naismith]

... the Jordan/Kobe gap is bigger than Hakeem/Garnett.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Via impact stats?

[Dipper 13]

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Via impact stats?

Plus the eye test. Garnett is at least comparable to Dream in certain aspects of the game, even though on offense he settled for jump shots far more than he should have. Perhaps his high post passing ability gives him an incentive to stay outside. He is also not the pressure defender that Hakeem is as far as forcing turnovers and altering shots. However he is comparable at guarding the P&R, plus he is a better defensive rebounder & midrange shooter (marginally). Kobe on the other hand is really not comparable to Jordan at all anywhere inside of 22 feet.

[Fencer reregistered]

Garnett & MJ is, as noted above, a perfect match of temperaments. Both were super-intense and driven. Both would have appreciated that in the other.

By way of contrast, Kobe was a jerk for many years at the start of his career, and Hakeem is a proud man. That might not have gone well.

On the court, the point above about ball-stopping is excellent.

And by the way, KG is an underrated trailer/finisher on the break, as was generally being a better passer than Hakeem's, so his squad probably runs a bit better than Hakeem's.

[G35]

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Via impact stats?

Plus the eye test. Garnett is at least comparable to Dream in certain aspects of the game, even though on offense he settled for jump shots far more than he should have. Perhaps his high post passing ability gives him an incentive to stay outside. He is also not the pressure defender that Hakeem is as far as forcing turnovers and altering shots. However he is comparable at guarding the P&R, plus he is a better defensive rebounder & midrange shooter (marginally). Kobe on the other hand is really not comparable to Jordan at all anywhere inside of 22 feet.

This is hyperbole. First the eye test shows that Kobe is the closest thing we have seen to Jordan. Statistically he's as close as anyone else who has played in the NBA. Now if you want to say that on a scale of 1-10, Jordan is a 10 and Kobe is a 2 (which I'm sure many people believe) that is ridiculous. Kobe is at worst a 7 on the Jordan scale. Now, Jordan is a sacred cow and people do not believe anyone can compare to him but Kobe is definitely comparable. There have been too many threads on the subject across the internet to say otherwise.

Players who are not comparable to Jordan inside 22 feet are players like Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, James Harden, Brandon Roy, etc. Players that are comparable to Jordan would start with Kobe and go on to Wade, McGrady, Vince, Erving, Lebron, etc etc.

When people make those sort of claims it makes Jordan seem as is if he should have his own board where everyone can go genuflect to his greatness and let the rest of NBA history have a rational conversation. Kobe is not Jordan, most people acknowledge that but he has been Jordan-like at times. KG has NEVER been Hakeem like at any time, especially the Hakeem everyone references from 1994 and 1995. Hakeem anchored some Cinderella Rocket teams that were not exceptionally talented, but played off of Hakeem's greatness. When did KG ever anchor a team and dominate his counterpart in the playoff's leading to titles?

Hakeem is actually the antithesis of KG. KG is all impact stats, Hakeem led teams that had no business winning back to back titles. Hakeem beat teams he should not have beaten, teams that had better records, equal or better talent, and home court advantage. KG with his ONE good playoff run in 2008, led his team to the worst record for any NBA champion. That is not comparable.......

[Dipper 13]

First the eye test shows that Kobe is the closest thing we have seen to Jordan.

He is aesthetically when it comes to certain moves and shots, but not in terms of effectiveness. There are a select number of players historically comparable to Jordan, maybe even better. Kobe is certainly not one of them.

Hakeem anchored some Cinderella Rocket teams that were not exceptionally talented, but played off of Hakeem's greatness. When did KG ever anchor a team and dominate his counterpart in the playoff's leading to titles?

I have never ranked Garnett on par with Hakeem overall, and I agree some members here have taken it a bit too far with KG. It's just that the Jordan/Kobe gap is bigger at their peaks.

[Jim Naismith]

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Via impact stats?

Plus the eye test. Garnett is at least comparable to Dream in certain aspects of the game, even though on offense he settled for jump shots far more than he should have. Perhaps his high post passing ability gives him an incentive to stay outside. He is also not the pressure defender that Hakeem is as far as forcing turnovers and altering shots. However he is comparable at guarding the P&R, plus he is a better defensive rebounder & midrange shooter (marginally). Kobe on the other hand is really not comparable to Jordan at all anywhere inside of 22 feet.

Do you have the impact stats for Kobe and KG? I'd love to see that.

What do you mean by "comparable"? If you mean 100% equal, then of course not. But if comparable means 85% of Jordan, I would apply that description to Kobe.

Clyde Drexler was the 2nd best shooting guard in 1992 and his Blazers pushed Jordan's Bulls to 6 games. And the Jordan-Kobe gap is smaller than the Jordan-Clyde gap.

[G35]

First the eye test shows that Kobe is the closest thing we have seen to Jordan.

He is aesthetically when it comes to certain moves and shots, but not in terms of effectiveness. There are a select number of players historically comparable to Jordan, maybe even better. Kobe is certainly not one of them.

Hakeem anchored some Cinderella Rocket teams that were not exceptionally talented, but played off of Hakeem's greatness. When did KG ever anchor a team and dominate his counterpart in the playoff's leading to titles?

I have never ranked Garnett on par with Hakeem overall, and I agree some members here have taken it a bit too far with KG. It's just that the Jordan/Kobe gap is bigger at their peaks.

Effectiveness and style are two different things. If you want to talk about efficiency then you are going into Adrian Dantley territory.

Also this is to start a team and not peaks. I would take KG last to start a team and I don't see how KG's peak is more effective than Kobe's. Kobe carried a team more effectively than KG ever did. Those 3 straight years missing the playoff's is a huge indictment of KG's effectiveness.....